If The Sun Is Black...

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #60 on: May 20, 2013, 10:31:03 AM »
Yes, the Ethernet.  Ironic.

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Duckdodgers,

Here's a video where Einstein admits there is ether:

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I found you a nice article to read
http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2012/07/19/one-does-not-simply-believe-in-dark-energy/

About the aether stuff. http://www.tuhh.de/rzt/rzt/it/Ether.html

Quote
Recapitulating, we may say that according to the general theory of relativity space is endowed with physical qualities; in this sense, therefore, there exists an ether. According to the general theory of relativity space without ether is unthinkable; for in such space there not only wonld be no propagation of light, but also no possibility of existence for standards of space and time (measuring-rods and clocks), nor therefore any space-time intervals in the physical sense. But this ether may not be thought of as endowed with the quality characteristic of ponderable inedia, as consisting of parts which may be tracked through time. The idea of motion may not be applied to it.


Junker for example went on explaining the aether acting as another force down on earth, while if this would be the case there would be no difference in gravitational pull at different places as we have measured on earth. What dark energy or the new aether stuff is, we do not (yet) know and I do not expect we will find answers to that either by discussing it on this forum.

But as far as the ISS and the space programs, are you convinced these are real?
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DuckDodgers

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #61 on: May 20, 2013, 01:40:24 PM »
Duck,
The first video was about the internet and subsequently, the Ethernet.  And in 1986, the M-M experiment was done with more sensitive equipment and it DID detect the ether.  The difference was, they didn't factor in the motion of the Earth in M-M's experiment.  The question is, WHAT motion?

Can you provide the names of the people that conducted the 1986 experiment?
markjo, what force can not pass through a solid or liquid?
Magnetism for one and electric is the other.

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markjo

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #62 on: May 20, 2013, 02:47:48 PM »
Duck,
The first video was about the internet and subsequently, the Ethernet.  And in 1986, the M-M experiment was done with more sensitive equipment and it DID detect the ether.  The difference was, they didn't factor in the motion of the Earth in M-M's experiment.  The question is, WHAT motion?

Can you provide the names of the people that conducted the 1986 experiment?
I think that he's referring to this guy: http://www.worldnpa.org/php/DatabaseMenu.php?tab=1&memberid=403
Here is his paper discussing his results: www.rexresearch.com/ether/silvertooth.pdf‎
For a genius, he seemed to have a lot of difficulty spelling the words "the" and "wavelength".
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 06:10:49 PM by markjo »
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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #63 on: May 20, 2013, 06:05:15 PM »
But we don't really know if he has difficulty spelling or TYPING.  Good example of how one shouldn't make assumptions.  :)

Before we continue on with other subjects, can we come to an conclusion regarding the ISS?
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jason_85

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #64 on: May 20, 2013, 10:12:52 PM »
Regarding the ISS, my views haven't changed.

You still believe that arriving at the conclusion that the ISS has a vacuum inside of it is logical?
Jason, you are my least favorite noob.

Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #65 on: May 21, 2013, 01:19:00 AM »
Regarding the ISS, my views haven't changed.

How come?
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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #66 on: May 21, 2013, 09:12:52 AM »
Jason,
If there is a vacuum inside the ISS, it is not a natural one.  It is manmade. But then again, we don't really know who or what created the universe, so maybe it is ALL manmade.  Humans are very intelligent and have the power to create and destroy...so nothing would surprise me anymore.  In fact, some people say we should search within ourselves to find the answers.  Maybe that's where the truth is.

There is no vacuum inside the ISS, the ISS is in a vacuum. Inside the ISS there is air and the pressure is the same as on ground level. EarthIsASpaceship, how come your view did not change regarding the ISS? Are there any unsolved mysteries to you?
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RealScientist

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #67 on: May 21, 2013, 11:14:06 AM »
Lol,

Yes.  Maybe you can help me understand a few things.  Is it possible to have "air" (oxygen) and still be in a near vacuum that is strong enough to float in?  Also, I thought sound did not carry through a vacuum.  I have tried to find experiments on YT that show how these things are done but cannot find any.

There is nothing at all in vacuum that could make things float. Quite the contrary, in general what floats in water or air falls like a rock if placed in vacuum and the gravitational pull of Earth. If satellites were not moving at enormous speeds horizontally they would fall like rocks and crash into the Earth.

What makes people float inside the ISS, for example, is the fact that they are in orbit just like the station. They would float even if the ISS were a vacuum or even if it were filled with water (or any other liquid or fluid).

You are just barking at the wrong tree.

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RealScientist

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #68 on: May 21, 2013, 11:51:58 AM »
Does anyone have a link to a video showing objects floating inside a capsule that is in a vacuum environment, going 17,000mph?
I have seen at least 50 in these forums alone. I cannot even understand your question.

Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #69 on: May 21, 2013, 12:07:45 PM »
Lol,

Yes.  Maybe you can help me understand a few things.  Is it possible to have "air" (oxygen) and still be in a near vacuum that is strong enough to float in?  Also, I thought sound did not carry through a vacuum.  I have tried to find experiments on YT that show how these things are done but cannot find any.

Well RealScientist already explained it.

The ISS does not float on a vacuum, like a boat does on water. The ISS is only moving through  a vacuum. If it would stop moving, it would just start to fall to earth. That is why the ISS has a certain speed to keep it nicely flying around the earth in an orbit. That is called the orbital speed.

It is perhaps quite abstract to think about it, but because the forward force is equal to the downward force, the ISS flies nicely around the earth. I made a small diagram so you understand it better, perhaps. The black line is showing you what the ISS is currently doing. If at one point the ISS would be suddenly stopped, the ISS will follow the green line. It would just fall down to earth. If the speeds get lower gradually it will follow the red line. If the ISS is going to accelerate it will follow the orange line. That is why they keep the ISS at a constant speed of about 28,000 km.



As for the inside of the ISS it is filled with air, just like we have here on earth. The hull of the ISS is strong enough to contain the air so it does not break. The same like airplanes maintain a higher pressure on the inside if it is flying at high altitudes. One difference with airplanes is that they regularly take off and land, so to reduce the constant different in pressure, the pressure on the inside is maintained at around 8,000 feet. This way the stress on the fuselage is less, lowering the risk of metal fatigue.

The ISS does not regulary land or take off, that is why it can maintain the same pressure as on sea level. The hull is made strong enough to withstand the pressure pushing from the inside.
On videos made aboard the ISS you hear sound. The sound just travels through the air that is inside the ISS.

You are right that sound does not travel in a vacuum. Once astronauts are outside, they would not hear the other one scream if he would do so. He would hear himself though, because he is in a space suit, which again is filled with air.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 12:27:45 PM by Lolflatdisc »
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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #70 on: May 21, 2013, 12:18:26 PM »
The ISS is actually constantly falling. That's what an orbit really is. Constantly falling toward the planet you are orbiting, but you also have a great sideways speed, making the ground below you curve away as you fall (because a planet is spherical), keeping you at constant altitude. But in the meantime, you are in free fall.

This is also the reason why the ISS is a zero gravity environment. The gravitational pull of the Earth is nearly just as strong on the ISS as it is here on the ground. The station is experiencing a force pulling it down as if it were laying on the ground. But since it is in free fall, the net acceleration is zero.

The Moon is also in free fall. The gravitational pull of the Earth is much less at that distance, which is why the Moon has a much longer orbital period.

Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #71 on: May 21, 2013, 12:54:53 PM »
Let me explain what I'm confused about.  The ISS is filled with air so they can hear each other.  They are moving at 17,000 mph but it doesn't affect them (same as flying on an airplane) and yet they FLOAT inside?  WHY do they float?

IcanBeAnything,

I think there is a magnetic connection that keeps the Moon locked with Earth, not gravity.

They float because, just like the station itself, they are in free fall. If you've ever gone skydiving, you'd know that when you reach terminal velocity, you are basically weightless. You still feel the air rushing around you, which the ISS astronauts obviously don't - their air is stationary with respect to them.

The floating has nothing to do with air. If you're in a plane and it starts to fall, you become weightless, and you float around inside the plane. This is precisely what happens in the "vomit comet" too, mostly.

And the Moon is definitely gravitationally bound to the Earth. The whole galaxy exists because of gravity. It's the only force that can realistically act at such a great distance, without breaking down the laws of physics at the source body.

The Earth's magnetosphere is crucial for life, but it can't deflect anything heavier than elementary particles, and they still need to have a charge, neutral ones don't care.

By the way, the existence of gravity has been tested experimentally many times, on much smaller scales, the first being the Cavendish experiment.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2013, 12:58:58 PM by icanbeanything »

Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #72 on: May 21, 2013, 01:11:19 PM »
Let me explain what I'm confused about.  The ISS is filled with air so they can hear each other.  They are moving at 17,000 mph but it doesn't affect them (same as flying on an airplane) and yet they FLOAT inside?  WHY do they float?

Because they are actually doing the same thing as sky diving. Sky divers also experience weightlessness, that is why they can do all these cool tricks too (watch the video). Except sky divers only go one way. They go down. Since they do not want to smash into the ground, they will open their parachutes at some point. #" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">INSANE Sky Diving Tricks In Mid Air Amazing!!!

The people inside the ISS do not move only down, but they also move sideways. On a flat earth you would smash the ground, only not directly below you, but at a point sideways of your position. Have a look at the diagram to better understand it.

Oh and perhaps you are asking if you really need to be in the vacuum to experience continiously weightlessness like they do onboard the ISS. In practice yes. In theory no. In theory you would only have to travel much, much faster at a lower altitude. Speeds we cannot achieve (yet).

Here is the diagram http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/16/gravityw.jpg/

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #73 on: May 21, 2013, 01:14:40 PM »
Ever think that maybe that force of attraction (gravity) is something PUSHING down on us?

Like I said, many experiments confirmed the existence of the gravitational force between two smaller objects (not the Earth and another one). Look it up. Two small objects attract each other when no other major forces are in play. Nothing is pushing on the objects.

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Junker

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #74 on: May 21, 2013, 02:19:19 PM »



Both of your scenarios depict a flat earth.  In the last one, you even included the ice wall.

Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #75 on: May 21, 2013, 03:10:42 PM »
Both of your scenarios depict a flat earth.  In the last one, you even included the ice wall.

Both scenarios? You mean the skydiver and ISS?
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Junker

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #76 on: May 21, 2013, 03:14:38 PM »
Both of your scenarios depict a flat earth.  In the last one, you even included the ice wall.

Both scenarios? You mean the skydiver and ISS?

Rather, both your depiction of a "round" earth, and flat earth both show the earth to be flat.  I am glad you are finally coming around.

Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #77 on: May 21, 2013, 03:32:32 PM »
Both of your scenarios depict a flat earth.  In the last one, you even included the ice wall.

Both scenarios? You mean the skydiver and ISS?

Rather, both your depiction of a "round" earth, and flat earth both show the earth to be flat.  I am glad you are finally coming around.

It is going to be flat to your imagination always. You see it as a top view of a flat disc. However as I draw in the forces, if you have an equal sideway force, the gravitational pull is going to pull you towards the disc (in your believe) allowing the puppet to orbit the disc. However, this would be on the side of the disc and this again contradicts real world observation where I do not observe spacecraft to my side, but up.
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Junker

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #78 on: May 21, 2013, 03:35:00 PM »
Both of your scenarios depict a flat earth.  In the last one, you even included the ice wall.

Both scenarios? You mean the skydiver and ISS?

Rather, both your depiction of a "round" earth, and flat earth both show the earth to be flat.  I am glad you are finally coming around.


It is going to be flat to your imagination always.

I agree.


Quote
You see it as a top view of a flat disc. However as I draw in the forces, if you have an equal sideway force, the gravitational pull is going to pull you towards the disc (in your believe) allowing the puppet to orbit the disc. However, this would be on the side of the disc and this again contradicts real world observation where I do not observe spacecraft to my side, but up.

I am aware of your conscious intention with the drawing.  I think your subconscious is telling you something else.

Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #79 on: May 21, 2013, 03:38:09 PM »
Makes no difference if that diagram is of a round or flat Earth.  The force of attraction (what you call gravity) still exists.  Skydiving and flying in an airplane are within the Earth's atmosphere so there's no comparison to the ISS in space.  The ZeroG plane may be able to recreate the anti-gravity effect but once again, it's in the atmosphere, not a near-vacuum and certainly not at 17,000 mph like the ISS.  I just want to see a video recreating those conditions here on Earth so I can see it and believe it. Have you noticed all the videos of the moon, Saturn, Mars, Venus and Jupiter on YT but hardly any of the ISS?  The ones I've found are all CGI or blurry.

The ISS is constantly being pulled by gravity. But as it is pulled it also goes sideways. Remember the other diagram I showed you earlier? If the ISS was going to be stopped all of a sudden, it will start to fall towards earth (the green line), if it gradually slows down, it will follow the red line. If it is going to accelerate it would follow the orange line. The sideway force and the downward force are equally balanced, and that is the black line. This is also what I show you in my latest diagram. I showed you what only a downward force does to a puppet. I showed you what only a sideway force does to a puppet. I showed you the combination of both on a flat earth and I have shown you what it does on a round earth. On a round earth it will stay in orbit.

Recreating the zero-gravity while still orbiting the earth in an atmosphere would require a much higher speed than 17,000 mp/h.

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #80 on: May 21, 2013, 03:39:18 PM »
Both of your scenarios depict a flat earth.  In the last one, you even included the ice wall.

Both scenarios? You mean the skydiver and ISS?

Rather, both your depiction of a "round" earth, and flat earth both show the earth to be flat.  I am glad you are finally coming around.

It is going to be flat to your imagination always. You see it as a top view of a flat disc. However as I draw in the forces, if you have an equal sideway force, the gravitational pull is going to pull you towards the disc (in your believe) allowing the puppet to orbit the disc. However, this would be on the side of the disc and this again contradicts real world observation where I do not observe spacecraft to my side, but up.

Do you want to see what the 17.000 mp/h does to humans on the inside, or what?

#ws" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">Space Station Boost Proves Newton's Laws - All 3 of Them!
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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #81 on: May 21, 2013, 03:46:06 PM »
Both of your scenarios depict a flat earth.  In the last one, you even included the ice wall.

Both scenarios? You mean the skydiver and ISS?

Rather, both your depiction of a "round" earth, and flat earth both show the earth to be flat.  I am glad you are finally coming around.


It is going to be flat to your imagination always.

I agree.

You are going to twist it the way so it always matches your own imagination. Why else would you strikethrough my text and only say that you agree to the text you just created yourself. 


I am aware of your conscious intention with the drawing. I think your subconscious is telling you something else.

Let me highlight what you say right. You think it is the way it is, but you do not hold any proof. Even if you reply to me with you saying "Oh I am sure...". Endless raving without arguements.

But anyway, I will ignore your other posts if it is the same, since all you do is trying to get your point of view, without ever asking questions like EarthIsASpaceship does. EarthIsASpaceship also brings up issues he does not understand and explains the things as he sees them. All you do Junker is trying to get your right by, again...twisting my sentences and quoting them such that you could agree to that content.
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RealScientist

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #82 on: May 21, 2013, 03:47:26 PM »
Let me explain what I'm confused about.  The ISS is filled with air so they can hear each other.  They are moving at 17,000 mph but it doesn't affect them (same as flying on an airplane) and yet they FLOAT inside?  WHY do they float?

Even though you already received two answers explaining your error, you have decided not to read them. People do not float inside the ISS in the same way as they float in water or balloons float in air. In fact, the word "float" is commonly used in this context but not the best, or if you prefer, incorrect.

The astronaut is orbiting Earth, just as his craft is, creating the appearance of a person floating in water. The person is not held off the floor by buoyancy. Whether the ISS is filled with air, oxygen, water or none of the above (a vacuum) there is no buoyancy and it is not the fluid what permits people and objects stay unattached from the floor and walls.

This is a common pattern of thinking among those like you who reject science. Things have to work just as they work in your everyday experience or you cry conspiracy. The laws of Physics are the same here and in orbit. The everyday experiences are not.

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Junker

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #83 on: May 21, 2013, 03:56:52 PM »


Again, a flat earth.  Except this time, you are outside of the ice wall.

If you are trying to model an oblate spheroid in 3D, you may want to use something other than MS paint.

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DuckDodgers

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #84 on: May 21, 2013, 04:52:55 PM »


Again, a flat earth.  Except this time, you are outside of the ice wall.

If you are trying to model an oblate spheroid in 3D, you may want to use something other than MS paint.

How about you stop trolling to avoid the information he is providing?
markjo, what force can not pass through a solid or liquid?
Magnetism for one and electric is the other.

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RealScientist

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #85 on: May 21, 2013, 06:08:06 PM »
RealScientist,

You're not very polite, are you?  Of course I read the answers.  You expect everyone to accept your answers without question.  Maybe you are a scientist or someone in an authority position but I could care less. We are all human.  I never said or implied that I believed they float like we do on water.  Would "hovering" be a more correct term?  Actually what DO you call what they are doing, Mr. Smartie Pants?  Anyway, I will never believe they are doing what you say they're doing until someone I know and trust, who has more interest in me than my tax dollars, goes up in the ISS.  Thank you and goodnight.
I would be thrilled to see you actually looking at the answers you got and analyze them skeptically. I know that if you really look at the answers you will not repeat the same argument about the effect of the air or the vacuum in people's apparent floating inside the spacecraft.

You are intelligent enough to understand that if the station orbits the Earth and the person is at the same height and velocity as the station it will follow the same orbit. Even if you do not believe that the station is in orbit, you can understand that this would be the result if Newton's Laws were true and the Earth were round and the station were in orbit. Work the mathematics assuming that the model of Newton's Laws were true and you will see that people would seem to float inside the station, whether you believe the station is up there or not.

It is you who wants to avoid the questions because your model of reality does not stand to much inspection at all. And yes, I am not polite when I think my politeness will look like an excuse for you not to do your homework.

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Junker

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #86 on: May 21, 2013, 07:11:58 PM »
How about you stop trolling to avoid the information he is providing?

Trolling isn't allowed in the upper fora.  I am simply making an observation.  I am not sure what information he is actually providing.  He draws a lot of pictures, most of them terribly inaccurate.

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DuckDodgers

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #87 on: May 21, 2013, 08:11:16 PM »
How about you stop trolling to avoid the information he is providing?

Trolling isn't allowed in the upper fora.  I am simply making an observation.  I am not sure what information he is actually providing.  He draws a lot of pictures, most of them terribly inaccurate.

It was very apparent that he was drawing a person falling, that same person falling on a small section of the Earth (the picture that was flat), then that same diagram but on a round Earth cross section (the circle).  If you couldn't see that, then you are dense.
markjo, what force can not pass through a solid or liquid?
Magnetism for one and electric is the other.

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Junker

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #88 on: May 21, 2013, 08:14:34 PM »
How about you stop trolling to avoid the information he is providing?

Trolling isn't allowed in the upper fora.  I am simply making an observation.  I am not sure what information he is actually providing.  He draws a lot of pictures, most of them terribly inaccurate.

It was very apparent that he was drawing a person falling, that same person falling on a small section of the Earth (the picture that was flat), then that same diagram but on a round Earth cross section (the circle).  If you couldn't see that, then you are dense.

I was simply suggesting he use better methods if he is going to draw pictures, which he should refrain from doing anyway.  But keep up with the ad hominem attacks, it is what you RET folks resort to when all else fails.

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DuckDodgers

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #89 on: May 21, 2013, 09:17:09 PM »
How about you stop trolling to avoid the information he is providing?

Trolling isn't allowed in the upper fora.  I am simply making an observation.  I am not sure what information he is actually providing.  He draws a lot of pictures, most of them terribly inaccurate.

It was very apparent that he was drawing a person falling, that same person falling on a small section of the Earth (the picture that was flat), then that same diagram but on a round Earth cross section (the circle).  If you couldn't see that, then you are dense.

I was simply suggesting he use better methods if he is going to draw pictures, which he should refrain from doing anyway.  But keep up with the ad hominem attacks, it is what you RET folks resort to when all else fails.

He was trying to get a simple point across, the drawing got that point across.  It isn't like there needed to be great detail in the pictures to show what a horizontal velocity would do to an object that is falling.  Why should he refrain from drawing pictures though, for a lot of people, a picture will get the point across a lot better than words.
markjo, what force can not pass through a solid or liquid?
Magnetism for one and electric is the other.