If The Sun Is Black...

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If The Sun Is Black...
« on: May 14, 2013, 11:44:43 AM »
There are two scientists, Eric Dollard and Tom Brown (which I'm sure most of you already know about), who believe the sun is black and possibly a hollow electromagnetic converter.  If it's true that the sun cannot be seen from space and is only visible through our atmosphere, I wonder if the Anti-moon looks black through our atmosphere but is visible in space.  All the lunar eclipse photos and videos I've seen are taken from Earth.  Does anyone have any taken from space? And to be clear, I don't mean taken from a NASA telescope.  I mean from a manned spacecraft.  Not that it would prove anything to me as I tend to not believe most of what I see from NASA. But it would be interesting to see how they would try to prove it's the Earth's shadow.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 11:54:30 AM by EarthIsASpaceship »

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Rama Set

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2013, 03:48:40 PM »
Do you a link to any more information?
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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jason_85

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2013, 05:18:36 PM »
No but while I was trying to find an example of an eclipse taken from a manned spacecraft, I came across this amazing photo of the ISS traversing a partial eclipse. What a wonderful photograph!
Jason, you are my least favorite noob.

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jason_85

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2013, 05:14:42 PM »
Just realised I didn't include the photo in that last post, here it is: http://legault.perso.sfr.fr/eclipse110104_solar_transit.html
Jason, you are my least favorite noob.

Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2013, 05:34:40 PM »
There are two scientists, Eric Dollard and Tom Brown (which I'm sure most of you already know about), who believe the sun is black and possibly a hollow electromagnetic converter.  If it's true that the sun cannot be seen from space and is only visible through our atmosphere, I wonder if the Anti-moon looks black through our atmosphere but is visible in space.  All the lunar eclipse photos and videos I've seen are taken from Earth.  Does anyone have any taken from space? And to be clear, I don't mean taken from a NASA telescope.  I mean from a manned spacecraft.  Not that it would prove anything to me as I tend to not believe most of what I see from NASA. But it would be interesting to see how they would try to prove it's the Earth's shadow.

So it would mean the sun would also get progressively darker once you go up...
Well here is a video..#ws" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">Balloon to the edge of Space - Video / Photos of UK
sun shot at 2:11, just in the corner. You may want to pause the video. Then at 2:41, full in view. (Pause again) then after it a few times more.

Another video. #ws" class="bbc_link" target="_blank">Vango Space Camping :: Whole Trip
28:39
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RealScientist

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2013, 06:08:22 PM »
There are two scientists, Eric Dollard and Tom Brown (which I'm sure most of you already know about), who believe the sun is black and possibly a hollow electromagnetic converter.  If it's true that the sun cannot be seen from space and is only visible through our atmosphere, I wonder if the Anti-moon looks black through our atmosphere but is visible in space.  All the lunar eclipse photos and videos I've seen are taken from Earth.  Does anyone have any taken from space? And to be clear, I don't mean taken from a NASA telescope.  I mean from a manned spacecraft.  Not that it would prove anything to me as I tend to not believe most of what I see from NASA. But it would be interesting to see how they would try to prove it's the Earth's shadow.
Why are you calling these two guys "scientists"? What I am seeing from them is the lack of scientific understanding typical of a five year old.

Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2013, 06:28:18 PM »
But it would be interesting to see how they would try to prove it's the Earth's shadow.

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jason_85

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2013, 07:04:58 PM »
I think he was talking about eclipses, not phases. Not like it matters... This discussion was doomed as soon as he mentioned those idiots in the same sentence as "scientists".
Jason, you are my least favorite noob.

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RealScientist

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2013, 10:52:12 PM »
I think he was talking about eclipses, not phases. Not like it matters... This discussion was doomed as soon as he mentioned those idiots in the same sentence as "scientists".
It is a very simple step from lunar phases to both lunar and solar eclipses. Eclipses only happen when the Sun and the Moon are in almost exactly the same apparent direction for any given observer on Earth or when they are in almost exactly the opposite direction. When this happens every single time that is no longer a possible coincidence, it is a matter of cause and effect.

Anyhow, it is simple enough to infer that the Moon is lit by the Sun just by looking at its phases, just as the diagram above shows. If you add the second dimension you will get even more confirmation that only the side of the Moon that is facing the Sun is lit.

And please explain why you are already loosing your temper and berating people. Are you already fed up with losing the debate and changing to prohibited tactics?

Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2013, 08:05:48 AM »
LOL,

Helium balloons do not get high enough.  They are still in Earth's atmosphere.  Space begins at the Karman line, 62 miles up.

Well, technically space doesn't begin anywhere. The atmosphere continuously gets thinner. At what height you consider it to be space depends on what pressure you consider to be space. The Karman line is an arbitrary line in this way. There's other arbitrary 'boundaries' of space too, some lower and some waaaay higher.

Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2013, 08:07:23 AM »
LOL,

Helium balloons do not get high enough.  They are still in Earth's atmosphere.  Space begins at the Karman line, 62 miles up.

The air gets thinner and thinner as you increase in altitude. If the sun would be dark out in space, it would also get progressively darker as you get higher and higher. The videos show you the sun is just as bright as always, and perhaps even brighter, because there is no thick layer of air.
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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2013, 08:35:43 AM »
LOL,

Helium balloons do not get high enough.  They are still in Earth's atmosphere.  Space begins at the Karman line, 62 miles up.

The air gets thinner and thinner as you increase in altitude. If the sun would be dark out in space, it would also get progressively darker as you get higher and higher. The videos show you the sun is just as bright as always, and perhaps even brighter, because there is no thick layer of air.

That is not true.  Look at those helium balloon videos that show the sun.  It is much dimmer than what we see on Earth.

Oh, so now all of a sudden these videos are valid...!?

Just for your comparison. I took a still from the first video. One near the ground, the other when the camera is starting to fall. You can see the times for yourself.
To me the left picture (at high altitude) is brighter than the right one (near the ground). At least it is not dimmer.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/689/skytb.jpg/

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2013, 02:45:39 PM »
Earth,

What happens with fish-eye lens is basically that the field of view captured by the camera is greater than the field of view displayed on screen.

While you're looking at the computer screen, try to imagine your whole natural field of view condensed into it. Whatever is in the corner of your right eye would be the right end of the screen, and left corner -> left end of screen. All that would be condensed into an image with a lot smaller field of view, yet it would be the same image. This is only possible with distortion.

I recently posted this about fish-eye in the Red Bull Stratos thread:

Fish eye lense does not equal round Earth.  Nothing there proves anything but a fisheye lense.

Let me make this clear. It's actually very easy to verify curvature even on a fish-eye lens capture.

Pause the video on a frame where the horizon is in a horizontal position on screen, and exactly at the middle of the screen (at the midpoint of the vertical axis). Now look at the horizon. If it's curved on the frame, it's curved in reality. A straight line would appear as a straight line in a fish-eyed frame, if it's horizontal or vertical and in the middle.

Think about how a straight line arcs downward on a fish-eye image if its lower on the screen, and upward if it's higher on the screen. At the middle it's still a straight line.

Here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Vlg_shop.jpg

As you can see, there must be a line both on the horizontal and on the vertical axis, where a straight line in reality would also be a straight line on the picture. This is precisely because straight lines curve the opposite way on opposite sides of the screen.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 02:48:34 PM by icanbeanything »

Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2013, 03:09:30 PM »
Lol,

The link didn't work.  Anyway, when did I say anything about the HELIUM BALLOON videos not being valid?  Those are real, even if the video cameras use fish eye lenses or for some reason show convex AND concave images. (I don't even know how THAT happens). And it is clear from that distance that the Earth is FLAT.  I would really like to know at what altitude the curvature is visible.

Here is the image of the link I posted earlier


Well to see the curvature with the naked eye, the higher the better. At lower altitudes the curvature is visible, but it is much harder to detect. The math has passed by a couple of times already. The drop is very small at sea level that it is almost impossible for you to tell whether you see a curvature. I googled some pictures and found some people onboard a plane, cruising at about 36,000 feet or so who photographed the earth's curvature. This one for example is easy to see, because there are no clouds that obscure the view.

Also note how far you are able to see on board a plane. You have not such a view from sea level.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 03:12:58 PM by Lolflatdisc »
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Junker

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2013, 03:14:30 PM »


Distortion by the camera lens and window.

Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2013, 03:47:55 PM »

Distortion by the camera lens and window.

Well, as I said in another topic, there will always be something...but hey the fact you can look so far is proof on its own.

Funny though that the window and the camera lens only distorts the horizon and not the plane's wing, engine or even the beach below...funny, huh? You just see and believe what you want to see Junker.
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Junker

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2013, 03:55:13 PM »
Funny though that the window and the camera lens only distorts the horizon and not the plane's wing, engine or even the beach below...funny, huh? You just see and believe what you want to see Junker.

But it distorts the clouds.

Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2013, 04:00:28 PM »
Funny though that the window and the camera lens only distorts the horizon and not the plane's wing, engine or even the beach below...funny, huh? You just see and believe what you want to see Junker.

But it distorts the clouds.

Bit selective about the things you want to talk about, don't you Junker? The view itself is proof on its own.
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RealScientist

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2013, 04:02:56 PM »
LOL,

Helium balloons do not get high enough.  They are still in Earth's atmosphere.  Space begins at the Karman line, 62 miles up.
You know that number (100 km up) is just a convention, right? There is nothing special in that number, and there is certainly nothing you can check out to decide if you are above or below this specific height. Just ever-thinning gas content in the surroundings.

If you want to get into a stable orbit, you should go a lot above this "line", up to about 200 km, where the air is so thin as to make orbital decay negligible.

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Junker

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2013, 04:07:58 PM »
Bit selective about the things you want to talk about, don't you Junker? The view itself is proof on its own.

Pot, meet kettle.  I agree it is proof on its own.

Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2013, 04:15:45 PM »
Yeah, I've been told the windows in airplanes distort the view.  So until proven.... well you know.

Also, photos can be altered.  A video would be MUCH better.  I've seen plenty of videos from a plane at similar altitude and they show NO curvature.

It is very hard to see the curvature of the earth from a plane on the video, because the camera is moving around. But you have videos of people who sent up weather balloons. At high altitudes, even though the camera is moving, it is easy to see the curvature. As for the photos they are real, I can assure that.
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Junker

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2013, 04:16:37 PM »
Yeah, I've been told the windows in airplanes distort the view.  So until proven.... well you know.

Also, photos can be altered.  A video would be MUCH better.  I've seen plenty of videos from a plane at similar altitude and they show NO curvature.

It is very hard to see the curvature of the earth from a plane on the video, because the camera is moving around. But you have videos of people who sent up weather balloons. At high altitudes, even though the camera is moving, it is easy to see the curvature. As for the photos they are real, I can assure that.


No one is saying they aren't real, just distorted.

Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2013, 04:21:20 PM »
No one is saying they aren't real, just distorted.

How many times do I have to post this...

Fish eye lense does not equal round Earth.  Nothing there proves anything but a fisheye lense.

Let me make this clear. It's actually very easy to verify curvature even on a fish-eye lens capture.

Pause the video on a frame where the horizon is in a horizontal position on screen, and exactly at the middle of the screen (at the midpoint of the vertical axis). Now look at the horizon. If it's curved on the frame, it's curved in reality. A straight line would appear as a straight line in a fish-eyed frame, if it's horizontal or vertical and in the middle.

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Junker

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2013, 04:34:49 PM »
No one is saying they aren't real, just distorted.

How many times do I have to post this...

Fish eye lense does not equal round Earth.  Nothing there proves anything but a fisheye lense.

Let me make this clear. It's actually very easy to verify curvature even on a fish-eye lens capture.

Pause the video on a frame where the horizon is in a horizontal position on screen, and exactly at the middle of the screen (at the midpoint of the vertical axis). Now look at the horizon. If it's curved on the frame, it's curved in reality. A straight line would appear as a straight line in a fish-eyed frame, if it's horizontal or vertical and in the middle.

What video?  I was referring to a picture.  Not only lens distortion, but distortion through the glass of the window.

Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2013, 04:38:08 PM »
No one is saying they aren't real, just distorted.

You didn't, but I didn't direct that reply to you...

However, you said it distorts things. I repeat myself again, how come the beach is not distorted.

At least you agree the view is proof on its own, but your distortion arguement does not hold up to the beach.
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Junker

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2013, 04:45:25 PM »
No one is saying they aren't real, just distorted.

You didn't, but I didn't direct that reply to you...

However, you said it distorts things. I repeat myself again, how come the beach is not distorted.

At least you agree the view is proof on its own, but your distortion arguement does not hold up to the beach.

How can you tell the beach is not distorted?

Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2013, 05:12:08 PM »
No one is saying they aren't real, just distorted.

You didn't, but I didn't direct that reply to you...

However, you said it distorts things. I repeat myself again, how come the beach is not distorted.

At least you agree the view is proof on its own, but your distortion arguement does not hold up to the beach.

How can you tell the beach is not distorted?

Simple. With help of Google earth. Google earth take pictures from above. It then calculates what the land should look like when you start to look at the picture at a different angle. The exact url to the host of the picture is here
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Gol-Transportes-Aereos/Boeing-737-322/1109807/&sid=8af0cfb11e3ba643240c5222d7a5035c

The location is said to be over the beaches of Paraná (Brazil). I just have to start up google, although I do not know the exact location and altitude of the airplane I just fine tune the location and altitude by trial and error. Here is the picture I took in Google earth. Even in the google earth picture, which uses a spherical earth as their model, you can see the horizon is curved. It would be really weird if both Google earth and the photographer, independent from one and another, show exactly the same distortion.


« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 05:47:46 PM by Lolflatdisc »
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Junker

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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2013, 05:29:13 PM »
So you are using a 2nd lens to prove the 1st lens is not distorted.

Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #28 on: May 16, 2013, 05:46:32 PM »
So you are using a 2nd lens to prove the 1st lens is not distorted.

Yes, I verified it using two different methods. It is the right place as you can see by the landmarks. I used roughly the same location, roughly the same altitude and roughly the same perspective to show you that the beaches are not distorted by the first camera.
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Re: If The Sun Is Black...
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2013, 06:14:35 PM »
How do we know the top of airplane windows isn't distorted to make the horizon look curved?  That would explain that photo.

Well, google earth has no airplane window, yet it gives you a similar view. There you have one answer that shows you the window does not distort the picture.

But there is another way to proof the airplane window did not distort things. If you open the link to the photo you can see the person has given you the registration of the airplane. It is the PR-GLF. I just searched the database for that airplane and the exact same person, on the same flight (name and date correspond) uploaded a picture at low altitude and you can see there aren't any distortions. Here is the full link http://www.airliners.net/photo/Gol-Transportes-Aereos/Boeing-737-322/1109808/&sid=7149cb13bd1f9b90bff04c4378e0db7f

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