NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969

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Tom Bishop

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NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« on: May 12, 2013, 12:49:01 PM »
The moon is 350-400,000km away from earth, that is 1.25-1.4 light seconds. Yet the communications between earth and the "moon" have no perceivable delay. If they were really on the moon there would have been a delay of 2.5-2.8 seconds between Ground Control and the astronauts on the surface of the moon.

See this video: http://www.youtube.com/embed/J6Tku-CgNnI

There are two examples, first one has NASA replying to the astronauts, and the second example in the video has the astronauts replying to NASA. Both NASA and the astronauts reply to each other almost immediately, without delay.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 01:09:14 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: NASA could communicate faster than the speed of light in 1969
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2013, 12:53:31 PM »
It has been alleged in youtube and on this forum that these videos were edited to take out the gaps, but there is a youtube channel with several hundred Apollo recordings of the original live CBS broadcasts from the moon, including the '#" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Eagle has Landed' speech at 6:00. There is no gap here either.

It has also been alleged that the audio was recorded at Mission Control, which is why Mission Control can reply to the astronauts so quickly. But this does not explain how the astronauts can reply to Mission Control so quickly. There 15 minute video third from the top on the Lunar Surface Journal where we see that the astronauts are clearly communicating with mission control without delay, and that mission control is communicating with the astronauts without delay. It cuts both ways. Each are saying "Roger," "Copy That," and answering each other's questions almost immediately.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 01:08:03 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: NASA could communicate faster than the speed of light in 1969
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2013, 12:55:07 PM »
In the second example of the first video I posted in the original post we hear mission control responding immediately to the astronauts. The second '#" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">What does the moon look like?' example in the Youtube video (at 1:00) shows the astronauts responding to mission control without a 2.8 second delay.

The claim that this is explained by the feed being recorded at mission control is bogus. This is what should have happened:

Quote
Mission Control: "What does the moon look like? Over."

[1.4 second delay as the signal travels to the moon]

Astronauts: "Okay, Houston. The moon is essentially gray, no color; looks like plaster-of-paris or sort of a grayish beach sand."

[1.4 second delay as the signal returns to earth]

Mission control: Roger that

The recording at mission control should have picked up 2.8 seconds of silence before hearing the response. But it did not.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 01:06:29 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Genius

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Re: NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2013, 01:30:15 PM »
That's quite interesting. I used to think it was simply because they weren't truly replying to each other, but they actually are. Odd, but a good point, Tom.

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hoppy

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Re: NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2013, 02:22:46 PM »
It is very indicting of the NASA lies.
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chuck22

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Re: NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2013, 02:57:22 PM »
One fake step for man, one faster than the speed of light leap for NASA. 
"...let there be..."

Re: NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2013, 04:25:27 PM »
Could the answer to this be found in that NASA did not establish direct links with the television channels?

"NASA hadn't established a direct link with the television channels. The live pictures transmitted from the Moon were displayed on a 10-inch black-and-white monitor, and a Vidicon camera was pointed at the screen, the output of which was given to the channels.

            Television channels actually showed us the live footage from the ASTRONAUT's side. i.e. the voices of the mission control that we heard in the footage were coming to us from the moon, and not directly from mission control. The conversation between the mission control and the astronauts as seen in the footage was hence, without any time delays."1

1 - The Absolute Verdict on Debunking Conspiracy Theories. [http://absoluteverdict.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/debunking-moon-conspiracy-theories.html]
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 04:29:03 PM by Pilgrim »
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Rama Set

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Re: NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2013, 04:40:42 PM »
The moon is 350-400,000km away from earth, that is 1.25-1.4 light seconds. Yet the communications between earth and the "moon" have no perceivable delay. If they were really on the moon there would have been a delay of 2.5-2.8 seconds between Ground Control and the astronauts on the surface of the moon.

See this video: http://www.youtube.com/embed/J6Tku-CgNnI

There are two examples, first one has NASA replying to the astronauts, and the second example in the video has the astronauts replying to NASA. Both NASA and the astronauts reply to each other almost immediately, without delay.

In this clip, if the source of the recording is at mission control you would expect a delay between mission control being over, and the Eagle replying. In this clip the Eagle is giving a status report and does not reply specifically to anything mission control says. It's inconclusive in that regard. You could easily draw the same conclusion if The Eagle was recording. Either way, it is obvious that there is no specific information being responded to. If you choose to interpret this as proof positive against Einstein's theories, I would not be surprised, but its clearly not a definitive demonstration of FTL radio.
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Rama Set

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Re: NASA could communicate faster than the speed of light in 1969
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2013, 04:45:52 PM »
In the second example of the first video I posted in the original post we hear mission control responding immediately to the astronauts. The second '#" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">What does the moon look like?' example in the Youtube video (at 1:00) shows the astronauts responding to mission control without a 2.8 second delay.

The claim that this is explained by the feed being recorded at mission control is bogus. This is what should have happened:

Quote
Mission Control: "What does the moon look like? Over."

[1.4 second delay as the signal travels to the moon]

Astronauts: "Okay, Houston. The moon is essentially gray, no color; looks like plaster-of-paris or sort of a grayish beach sand."

[1.4 second delay as the signal returns to earth]

Mission control: Roger that

The recording at mission control should have picked up 2.8 seconds of silence before hearing the response. But it did not.

If you can show that this is the original unedited sound recording then you would have a case perhaps, as long as you have accounted for all relativistic effects. Namely, this situation directly invokes the Twin Paradox, where time flows differently for the two FORs. Not saying that is the answer, but maybe explore that before dismantling modern science.

First step is still to get the original source, not the YouTube one.
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Re: NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2013, 04:47:53 PM »
how can you be sure the videos were not edited?

Re: NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2013, 05:08:02 PM »
The moon is 350-400,000km away from earth, that is 1.25-1.4 light seconds. Yet the communications between earth and the "moon" have no perceivable delay. If they were really on the moon there would have been a delay of 2.5-2.8 seconds between Ground Control and the astronauts on the surface of the moon.

See this video: http://www.youtube.com/embed/J6Tku-CgNnI

There are two examples, first one has NASA replying to the astronauts, and the second example in the video has the astronauts replying to NASA. Both NASA and the astronauts reply to each other almost immediately, without delay.

You say both NASA and the astronauts reply to each other immediately, but all I hear is Houston replying immediately. Big difference since Houston is where it's being recorded.

Find one where the astronauts are replying to Houston.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2013, 08:19:30 PM »
Could the answer to this be found in that NASA did not establish direct links with the television channels?

"NASA hadn't established a direct link with the television channels. The live pictures transmitted from the Moon were displayed on a 10-inch black-and-white monitor, and a Vidicon camera was pointed at the screen, the output of which was given to the channels.

            Television channels actually showed us the live footage from the ASTRONAUT's side. i.e. the voices of the mission control that we heard in the footage were coming to us from the moon, and not directly from mission control. The conversation between the mission control and the astronauts as seen in the footage was hence, without any time delays."1

1 - The Absolute Verdict on Debunking Conspiracy Theories. [http://absoluteverdict.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/debunking-moon-conspiracy-theories.html]

But Both NASA and the astronauts reply to each other immediately. Even on the astronaut's side there should be a delay as mission control responds to them. It shouldn't be immediate.

In this clip, if the source of the recording is at mission control you would expect a delay between mission control being over, and the Eagle replying. In this clip the Eagle is giving a status report and does not reply specifically to anything mission control says. It's inconclusive in that regard. You could easily draw the same conclusion if The Eagle was recording. Either way, it is obvious that there is no specific information being responded to. If you choose to interpret this as proof positive against Einstein's theories, I would not be surprised, but its clearly not a definitive demonstration of FTL radio.

See Post #3 of this thread. The astronauts reply to Mission Control without delay. It cuts both ways.

If you can show that this is the original unedited sound recording then you would have a case perhaps, as long as you have accounted for all relativistic effects. Namely, this situation directly invokes the Twin Paradox, where time flows differently for the two FORs. Not saying that is the answer, but maybe explore that before dismantling modern science.

First step is still to get the original source, not the YouTube one.

See Post #2. I linked to archives of the original live Apollo broadcasts.

You say both NASA and the astronauts reply to each other immediately, but all I hear is Houston replying immediately. Big difference since Houston is where it's being recorded.

Find one where the astronauts are replying to Houston.

See Post #3.

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Rama Set

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Re: NASA could communicate faster than the speed of light in 1969
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2013, 09:19:28 PM »
In the second example of the first video I posted in the original post we hear mission control responding immediately to the astronauts. The second '#" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">What does the moon look like?' example in the Youtube video (at 1:00) shows the astronauts responding to mission control without a 2.8 second delay.

The claim that this is explained by the feed being recorded at mission control is bogus. This is what should have happened:

Quote
Mission Control: "What does the moon look like? Over."

[1.4 second delay as the signal travels to the moon]

Astronauts: "Okay, Houston. The moon is essentially gray, no color; looks like plaster-of-paris or sort of a grayish beach sand."

[1.4 second delay as the signal returns to earth]

Mission control: Roger that

The recording at mission control should have picked up 2.8 seconds of silence before hearing the response. But it did not.

Looking at the journal for the Apollo 8 mission which that clip is listed from, it says there was a 12 second delay between the Carr's question and the plaster of paris response.  I would have a look at source materials to determine where the discrepancy lies. I would be interested to know.
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JP

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Re: NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2013, 09:19:47 PM »
Am I the only one who finds this presentation of evidence odd? It seems extremely hypocritical...

Scenario #1:

FE'er posts audio clip of Moon conversation as proof. Dismisses the idea that it could be edited. This editing process would take almost no time and cost virtually nothing.

Scenario #2:

RE'er posts video of people on the ISS, spacewalks, etc. FE'ers immediately claim that the video could be faked. This faking process would take a ton of time and cost millions of dollars.

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Rama Set

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Re: NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2013, 09:20:49 PM »
Am I the only one who finds this presentation of evidence odd? It seems extremely hypocritical...

Scenario #1:

FE'er posts audio clip of Moon conversation as proof. Dismisses the idea that it could be edited. This editing process would take almost no time and cost virtually nothing.

Scenario #2:

RE'er posts video of people on the ISS, spacewalks, etc. FE'ers immediately claim that the video could be faked. This faking process would take a ton of time and cost millions of dollars.

Its extremely hypocritical but its their sandbox.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2013, 10:39:45 PM »
Am I the only one who finds this presentation of evidence odd? It seems extremely hypocritical...

Scenario #1:

FE'er posts audio clip of Moon conversation as proof. Dismisses the idea that it could be edited. This editing process would take almost no time and cost virtually nothing.

Scenario #2:

RE'er posts video of people on the ISS, spacewalks, etc. FE'ers immediately claim that the video could be faked. This faking process would take a ton of time and cost millions of dollars.

Except that I posted archives of the original live broadcasts, which shows the source material without gaps.

Re: NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2013, 01:21:07 AM »
They manage to fake the moon landing (and all space-related stuff) with technology that are still out of reach these days for the VFX industry, but they forgot the transmission delay in these videos.
While a Tom Hanks remember it when making Apollo 13. Or even Kubrick, in 2001 who supposedly helped making the faking.

Re: NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2013, 01:44:03 AM »
Check my post in the ISS repair thread.

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Rama Set

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Re: NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2013, 04:18:56 AM »
Am I the only one who finds this presentation of evidence odd? It seems extremely hypocritical...

Scenario #1:

FE'er posts audio clip of Moon conversation as proof. Dismisses the idea that it could be edited. This editing process would take almost no time and cost virtually nothing.

Scenario #2:

RE'er posts video of people on the ISS, spacewalks, etc. FE'ers immediately claim that the video could be faked. This faking process would take a ton of time and cost millions of dollars.

Except that I posted archives of the original live broadcasts, which shows the source material without gaps.

Granted I did not listen to all the audio from the NASA website, but of the ten or so minutes I did, there were appropriate delays. The only one I saw with an inapprpriate delay was that clip of the Apollo 8 mission from the debunkers video. Based on the NASA journal of the Apollo 8 mission, which lists a 12 second delay in that specific communication, there is a major discrepancy.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2013, 05:33:13 AM »
Granted I did not listen to all the audio from the NASA website, but of the ten or so minutes I did, there were appropriate delays. The only one I saw with an inapprpriate delay was that clip of the Apollo 8 mission from the debunkers video. Based on the NASA journal of the Apollo 8 mission, which lists a 12 second delay in that specific communication, there is a major discrepancy.

The time stamps do not indicate the delay. That's the time spent talking.

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Rama Set

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Re: NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2013, 05:50:37 AM »
No it is the the mission time that the person began speaking at. Otherwise you have every person speaking at a slightly longer and longer amount of time regardless of what they say. Eventually it takes an astronaut over 100 hours to say "Houston".
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Tom Bishop

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Re: NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2013, 06:11:05 AM »
The time difference between one transmission to the next is the time difference between when they hit the transmit button and when they hit it again. It does not indicate how much of that time period is silence.

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Rama Set

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Re: NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2013, 06:26:02 AM »
The time difference between one transmission to the next is the time difference between when they hit the transmit button and when they hit it again. It does not indicate how much of that time period is silence.

I am not sure what this means, but there is clearly a discrepancy in the timeline.
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JP

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Re: NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2013, 07:33:09 AM »
Am I the only one who finds this presentation of evidence odd? It seems extremely hypocritical...

Scenario #1:

FE'er posts audio clip of Moon conversation as proof. Dismisses the idea that it could be edited. This editing process would take almost no time and cost virtually nothing.

Scenario #2:

RE'er posts video of people on the ISS, spacewalks, etc. FE'ers immediately claim that the video could be faked. This faking process would take a ton of time and cost millions of dollars.

Except that I posted archives of the original live broadcasts, which shows the source material without gaps.

Ok fine, hypocrisy aside, let's actually look at the video. The one I'll be addressing is the eagle has landed, since it has the CBS video as well, therefore is more likely to be unedited. Through a lot of the video, Houston and Apollo 11 are not directly replying to each other. Houston will say one thing, then Apollo will say another that does not depend on being a reply to Houston. There are times their words even step on each other because of this. I noticed two distinct moments of delay though, both which were direct replies to something Houston said:

2:12-2:16 - at 2:12 Houston says "you are go for landing. over." Apollo replies ~4 seconds later "understand, go for landing."

6:12-6:16 - 6:12 Houston says "thanks a lot." ~4 seconds later Apollo replies "thank you."

I'm sure there are more, but I'm not going to rewatch the 10 minute video or any of the other long videos you posted to find them. If you want to mention some specific moments where there is an instant speak and reply from both sides, I'd be more than happy to look at it, but it's foolish to ask people to weed through hours of video to find the proof you say is there.

Re: NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2013, 07:42:35 AM »
I'd also like to know how they kept in constant contact with those receiver dishes, you know, with the earth rotating away, or shall I say, with the mission control moving away from it.
As a starting point you might want to watch the film "The Dish"
I'd like to agree with you but then we'd both be wrong!

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Rama Set

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Re: NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2013, 07:44:24 AM »
I'd also like to know how they kept in constant contact with those receiver dishes, you know, with the earth rotating away, or shall I say, with the mission control moving away from it.

There was a network of communications relays all over the Earth.  They combined efforts to relay the comms to Houston. 
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Rama Set

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Re: NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2013, 07:47:33 AM »
I'd also like to know how they kept in constant contact with those receiver dishes, you know, with the earth rotating away, or shall I say, with the mission control moving away from it.
As a starting point you might want to watch the film "The Dish"
We supposedly align our satellite dishes to a satellite and any small variation of it will render the signal useless.
In 1969, they appeared to do it flawlessly on a supposed rotating earth. Amazing.

Satellites change relative position to us  much quicker because they are closer, and because of the light cones, the radio waves will have spread out more, allowing for a broader degree of accuracy.
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Rama Set

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Re: NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2013, 07:49:03 AM »
I'd also like to know how they kept in constant contact with those receiver dishes, you know, with the earth rotating away, or shall I say, with the mission control moving away from it.

There was a network of communications relays all over the Earth.  They combined efforts to relay the comms to Houston.
I'm not buying that.

Who cares if you are?  It happened.  There were hundreds, if not thousands of non-NASA employees from many nations who combined on the project.  Research it with the open mind you supposedly possess.
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

Re: NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2013, 07:51:08 AM »
I'd also like to know how they kept in constant contact with those receiver dishes, you know, with the earth rotating away, or shall I say, with the mission control moving away from it.
As a starting point you might want to watch the film "The Dish"
We supposedly align our satellite dishes to a satellite and any small variation of it will render the signal useless.
In 1969, they appeared to do it flawlessly on a supposed rotating earth. Amazing.

Satellites change relative position to us  much quicker because they are closer, and because of the light cones, the radio waves will have spread out more, allowing for a broader degree of accuracy.
In 1969?
Yes radio waves used to spread out in 1969
I'd like to agree with you but then we'd both be wrong!

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Rama Set

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Re: NASA had faster-than-light radios in 1969
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2013, 07:51:34 AM »
I'd also like to know how they kept in constant contact with those receiver dishes, you know, with the earth rotating away, or shall I say, with the mission control moving away from it.
As a starting point you might want to watch the film "The Dish"
We supposedly align our satellite dishes to a satellite and any small variation of it will render the signal useless.
In 1969, they appeared to do it flawlessly on a supposed rotating earth. Amazing.

Satellites change relative position to us  much quicker because they are closer, and because of the light cones, the radio waves will have spread out more, allowing for a broader degree of accuracy.
In 1969?

Yeah, physics were the same in 1969.
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.