Gravity and Friction

Gravity or something keeps the Air down, but Air has still freedom of motion. Friction is the force of resistance that a moving body faces by another body.

Air (as a gas mixture) is a fluid of random motion molecules with a low viscosity. A supposed friction between a rotating Earth and the Air(who surrounds Earth) would cause high turbulence of the Air.

I pay 1.000.000.000 $ to a rotating Earth believer who can answer the following question:
How can the friction between a rotating Earth and the Air, would put the random molecules of the Air in order(close to each other) and line, following a constant frantic speed of 1030mph.

If you would care to rephrase the question in English, I'll have a crack at answering it.

Please re-phrase your question.

The Earth does not rotate inside the atmosphere like some sort of gyroscope. 

To begin...our atmosphere is subjected to Earth's gravity and friction in that it rotates with the Earth.  The wind we feel and changes in weather are a direct result of uneven heating of the Earth's surface. 


 

Please re-phrase your question.

The Earth does not rotate inside the atmosphere like some sort of gyroscope. 

To begin...our atmosphere is subjected to Earth's gravity and friction in that it rotates with the Earth.  The wind we feel and changes in weather are a direct result of uneven heating of the Earth's surface. 



 

Theres nothing to re-phrase.

The Air(atmosphere) is not locked inside a solid roof of the Earth. The Air(atmosphere) surrounds Earth.

For me to imagine that the Open Air rotates with the same constant speed as the Earth  is a crazy thing, since Air is neither closed nor solid or at least liquid.

Imagine for a moment what you believe. I dont know if I can draw a picture to show this to you.

For me to imagine that the Open Air rotates with the same constant speed as the Earth  is a crazy thing, since Air is neither closed nor solid or at least liquid.

Imagine for a moment what you believe. I dont know if I can draw a picture to show this to you.

It's because you don't understand physics very well.

Answer me this: If the atmosphere is stationary and not moving with the Earth, then we'd have huge 1000mph winds. The winds would resist the motion of the Earth, would they not? So the Earth's rotation would slow down (ever so slightly). But wouldn't the Earth be accelerating the wind in the direction of its rotation at the same time? Give this process enough time, and what do you think would end up happening?

Heat death?

The wind itself would finish us off before that could happen.

True Myth: intuitively, your question makes sense, I don't think it needed rephrasing or was ridiculous. But unless you have a degree in physics and have studied fluid dynamics and can show that this is really counter to the science we know, your objection doesn't really work. Science is not always intuitive at a first glance. Relativity and quantum mechanics, for example. Similarly, if an expert was to post here an explanation or mathematical model in terms of vector fields and whatnot, it might not accomplish much in convincing you. I think Puttah's explanation makes sense, but it's not exactly rigorous so it's hard for us to debate it.

If you want an answer to a question, or to prove a point like RET is full of holes, your first stop shouldn't be this forum, it should be something like this: http://bit.ly/12KlMI5. You may find that you owe a certain Mark Eichenlaub 1.000.000.000 $. There are also numerous websites to ask experts physics questions. Here is not a great place. It also just saves the forum from being filled with unnecessary questions. We would be expected to search this forum before asking a question about FET.

Also, what if I ask you why the air doesn't flow off the top over the sides of the earth if the earth is accelerating upwards? You can come up with all sorts of ad-hoc rationalizations like the canopy holds it in, the UA accelerates it too, the earth is infinite, bla bla bla. These would all be hypotheses without evidence. Well, I can do that too. I can posit a terrestrial accelerator that keeps the air in check. It's weird, but you can't prove me wrong, and your stuff is no better. A better answer to my question would be 'I don't know'. Because that's OK sometimes. Well, guess what. I don't know why the air moves around either. Deal with it. You're just using an argument from ignorance, and it gets you nowhere. The point is not all the things that you may think are unexplained, but rather that RET explains a HUGE amount while assuming very little basic known physics. No bendy light, UA, conspiracies, and other bullshit.

Gravity or something keeps the Air down, but Air has still freedom of motion. Friction is the force of resistance that a moving body faces by another body.

Air (as a gas mixture) is a fluid of random motion molecules with a low viscosity. A supposed friction between a rotating Earth and the Air(who surrounds Earth) would cause high turbulence of the Air..

If the earth was still and suddenly started to rotate, there would indeed be turbulances, as you predict. But after a - geologically - short time they would calm down and the air would just follow the earth spin, assumed that rotation is constant, as it obviously is.

Gravity or something keeps the Air down, but Air has still freedom of motion. Friction is the force of resistance that a moving body faces by another body.

Air (as a gas mixture) is a fluid of random motion molecules with a low viscosity. A supposed friction between a rotating Earth and the Air(who surrounds Earth) would cause high turbulence of the Air.

I pay 1.000.000.000 $ to a rotating Earth believer who can answer the following question:
How can the friction between a rotating Earth and the Air, would put the random molecules of the Air in order(close to each other) and line, following a constant frantic speed of 1030mph.

Look up torque converter.

Basically, it uses fluid to transfer the spinning power of the transmission in cars....someone correct me, or explain it better if I am wrong.

Where is my money? Did you mean "one point zero dollars" or "one million dollars"?

By the way, your question needs rephrasing. Let me repeat your question without the parenthesis.

"How can the friction between a rotating Earth and the Air, would put the random molecules of the Air in order and line, following a constant frantic speed of 1030mph."

In order and line? What?

btw, why are you asking complicated questions yet again? I thought we went through this already...

The wind itself would finish us off before that could happen.

It was a joke. Not all jokes have other people as the punchline.

I dont need a degree in physics(although there are people with such degrees who agree with me), I have logic.  Simple logic we all can use. If we cant, then we cant do or know anything. I dont need a complicated mathematical representation to understand the world.

My question is not complicated at all. Gravity holds the Air down. Right. But friction did what? Did friction stabilize the Open Air above the equator at a constant speed of 1030mph? If the Earth was rotating, then friction would PUSH and THROW the Air away. It wouldnt even let gravity attract the Air and make an atmosphere. Beside this, Air Rotation would be different every mile norther or souther from the equator(in the poles, zero speed), but Air pressure  is the same - of course it changes with altitude. Dr Yasser Shaban says that Air Rotating along with the Earth is the greatest hoax ever invented.

You must first represent a historical hypothesis of your earth rotation model. Let me make an atheistic naturalistic scenario for you. The unformed Earth was always rotating from the beginning. Heavier and lighter gaseous elements were attracted by gravity making the atmosphere. Friction between Air and Earth took place and .... the Air gradually gained the speed of Earth ? Or friction shot the random moving gaseous molecules away?

Finally, I dont say there is no wind and no Air rotation cycle. I say there is no Earth rotation and no 1030mph Air Rotation - a supposed ghost wind that goes unexperienced by people.

We dont need complicated advanced understanding, the properties of matter show that there is difference between solids, liquids, gases.

A gas does not behave as a solid.

I wasn't saying your question was complicated, it is unreadable. You use words which are unnecessary, and it throws off the reader.

We dont need complicated advanced understanding, the properties of matter show that there is difference between solids, liquids, gases.

A gas does not behave as a solid.

Did you read about Torque Converters??? I told you to read about them. They use fluids to transfer friction between different solids. Its like spinning water really fast to make that water spin something else. It exists. It is possible.

I dont need a degree in physics(although there are people with such degrees who agree with me), I have logic.  Simple logic we all can use. If we cant, then we cant do or know anything. I dont need a complicated mathematical representation to understand the world.

My question is not complicated at all. Gravity holds the Air down. Right. But friction did what? Did friction stabilize the Open Air above the equator at a constant speed of 1030mph?

1. If the Earth was rotating, then friction would PUSH and THROW the Air away. It wouldnt even let gravity attract the Air and make an atmosphere.

um, what? Did you mean momentum?

You must first represent a historical hypothesis of your earth rotation model. Let me make an atheistic naturalistic scenario for you. The unformed Earth was always rotating from the beginning. Heavier and lighter gaseous elements were attracted by gravity making the atmosphere. Friction between Air and Earth took place and .... the Air gradually gained the speed of Earth ? Or friction shot the random moving gaseous molecules away?

Finally, I dont say there is no wind and no Air rotation cycle. I say there is no Earth rotation and no 1030mph Air Rotation - a supposed ghost wind that goes unexperienced by people.

posting about relativity again.....sigh....

Let me try to explain using an analogy representing RE.

Gravity on a plane is represented by dips in space time, forming a well that causes matter to "roll" towards it, like this.


That looks very much like a bowl. So we will use a bowl in our real world to demonstrate how the Earth can make the air move with it in circles. Air is a gas, water is liquid, but they are both fluids. We will use water instead of air in our real world scenario because we can easily see water, and not air.

Pour water into bowl. The dip of the bowl (gravity) prevents the water (air) from escaping. Stick large spoon (Earth) into water (air). Spin slowly in circles around the edge of the bowl. After several revolution of spoon (Earth), lift spoon from water. Water should be spinning in circles in bowl (gravity well) about as fast as you were spinning, but will quickly slow down due to friction. As long as the Earth keeps spinning, the air will continue to move along with it.

Does this help?

I dont need a degree in physics(although there are people with such degrees who agree with me), I have logic.  Simple logic we all can use. If we cant, then we cant do or know anything. I dont need a complicated mathematical representation to understand the world.

You do sometimes need complicated mathematics because the universe is sometimes complicated. The universe isn't logical, it doesn't care what we think it just is. The universe is far more complicated than any piece of human engineering and yet engineers have to be well versed in mathematics.

It is all very well sitting back and saying that you know how things work when you are never tested on what you say. That's why we have people who study the universe and test their thoughts and theories and don't limit the universe to their own prejudices, intuition and limitations.

Yes, we are saying that the atmosphere would gradually increase its speed to match that of the earth. Friction would push the air to speed it up, so that from our perspective the air would not be moving quickly.

Gases are not the same as solids but that does not mean that friction doesn't exist. If gases did behave as solids, then the air would constantly be perfectly still. It is not. It's in constant flux and we have winds all over the place. However, there is some friction which partially stabilizes the atmosphere so that the winds aren't crazy strong. If the friction was weaker the winds would be stronger, if the friction was stronger the winds would be slower (from our perspective). Your claim is quantitative. How do you know that the friction isn't strong enough? Can you pull out some experimental figures and numbers to show that the expected winds should be greater?

I dont need a degree in physics(although there are people with such degrees who agree with me), I have logic.  Simple logic we all can use. If we cant, then we cant do or know anything. I dont need a complicated mathematical representation to understand the world.

The naive think they can replace an understanding of physics with logic. Are you saying that ancient civilizations weren't logical? Yet it took until the end of the 17th century to develop Newton's 3 laws of motion.

#ws" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Three Incorrect Laws of Motion

We dont need complicated advanced understanding, the properties of matter show that there is difference between solids, liquids, gases.

A gas does not behave as a solid.

Perhaps not, but gas can behave as liquid.  In fact, in scientific terms, they are both considered to be fluids.

Gravity or something keeps the Air down, but Air has still freedom of motion. Friction is the force of resistance that a moving body faces by another body.

Air (as a gas mixture) is a fluid of random motion molecules with a low viscosity. A supposed friction between a rotating Earth and the Air(who surrounds Earth) would cause high turbulence of the Air.

I pay 1.000.000.000 $ to a rotating Earth believer who can answer the following question:
How can the friction between a rotating Earth and the Air, would put the random molecules of the Air in order(close to each other) and line, following a constant frantic speed of 1030mph.

It sounds like you are picturing the Earth trying to push the atmosphere from a standstill up to the 1000mph it is now. Even if this were the case, I think you are right that there would a lot of turbulence, but only at the beginning. Eventually the air would catch up and on average end up moving the same speed as the surface. Think of stirring coffee with a spoon: resistance at first, but then you get a nice smooth movement if you keep stirring.

But there's really a better explanation. When the Earth formed, it was from a big cloud of gas and dust (so the theory goes) that spun faster and faster (due to conservation of angular momentum) as it contracted (due to gravity). Heavier elements naturally settled at the centre an lighter ones on the outside. Since it was spinning from the beginning, there was no need for friction to speed the atmosphere up. And since there's no friction from outside the atmosphere to slow it down, it just keeps spinning.

P.S. no personal checks please.

Quote from: True Myth on April 10, 2013, 03:48:53 AM

Gravity or something keeps the Air down, but Air has still freedom of motion. Friction is the force of resistance that a moving body faces by another body.

Air (as a gas mixture) is a fluid of random motion molecules with a low viscosity. A supposed friction between a rotating Earth and the Air(who surrounds Earth) would cause high turbulence of the Air.

I pay 1.000.000.000 $ to a rotating Earth believer who can answer the following question:
How can the friction between a rotating Earth and the Air, would put the random molecules of the Air in order(close to each other) and line, following a constant frantic speed of 1030mph.

It sounds like you are picturing the Earth trying to push the atmosphere from a standstill up to the 1000mph it is now. Even if this were the case, I think you are right that there would a lot of turbulence, but only at the beginning. Eventually the air would catch up and on average end up moving the same speed as the surface. Think of stirring coffee with a spoon: resistance at first, but then you get a nice smooth movement if you keep stirring.

But there's really a better explanation. When the Earth formed, it was from a big cloud of gas and dust (so the theory goes) that spun faster and faster (due to conservation of angular momentum) as it contracted (due to gravity). Heavier elements naturally settled at the centre an lighter ones on the outside. Since it was spinning from the beginning, there was no need for friction to speed the atmosphere up. And since there's no friction from outside the atmosphere to slow it down, it just keeps spinning.

P.S. no personal checks please.

I think that if you either stir coffee too fast or rotate the cup very fast, the coffee will be spilled. And for a gas as the Air it would be very easier to be shot away with 1030mph rotation.

But anyway, I cant imagine how an open Air would be dragged along by the Earth. How could every Air molecule would be restricted and set in order(as in rigid solids), moving at 1030mph. The only way this could happen is if the Air was trapped inside the Earth, inside a sealed solid material. I think people can make the Air rotate only inside tubes.

I think that if you either stir coffee too fast or rotate the cup very fast, the coffee will be spilled. And for a gas as the Air it would be very easier to be shot away with 1030mph rotation.

Yes, the coffee can quite easily be spilled, but that's because the centrifugal forces created by the speed of the rotation are high. The rotational speed of the Earth is very low, hence the centrifugal forces are very low, and even more-so, gravity nearly negates this outward force completely.

But anyway, I cant imagine how an open Air would be dragged along by the Earth. How could every Air molecule would be restricted and set in order(as in rigid solids), moving at 1030mph. The only way this could happen is if the Air was trapped inside the Earth, inside a sealed solid material. I think people can make the Air rotate only inside tubes.

Then what you think is wrong.

True Myth, are you simply trying to learn about Physics or are you claiming that the Round Earth cannot possibly work even though you don't understand the Physics involved? Remember, I've already shown that logic is not a suitable substitute for a strong foundational knowledge of Physics, so you can't use that excuse.

Quote from: Shmeggley on April 11, 2013, 10:30:21 AM

Quote from: True Myth on April 10, 2013, 03:48:53 AM

Gravity or something keeps the Air down, but Air has still freedom of motion. Friction is the force of resistance that a moving body faces by another body.

Air (as a gas mixture) is a fluid of random motion molecules with a low viscosity. A supposed friction between a rotating Earth and the Air(who surrounds Earth) would cause high turbulence of the Air.

I pay 1.000.000.000 $ to a rotating Earth believer who can answer the following question:
How can the friction between a rotating Earth and the Air, would put the random molecules of the Air in order(close to each other) and line, following a constant frantic speed of 1030mph.

It sounds like you are picturing the Earth trying to push the atmosphere from a standstill up to the 1000mph it is now. Even if this were the case, I think you are right that there would a lot of turbulence, but only at the beginning. Eventually the air would catch up and on average end up moving the same speed as the surface. Think of stirring coffee with a spoon: resistance at first, but then you get a nice smooth movement if you keep stirring.

But there's really a better explanation. When the Earth formed, it was from a big cloud of gas and dust (so the theory goes) that spun faster and faster (due to conservation of angular momentum) as it contracted (due to gravity). Heavier elements naturally settled at the centre an lighter ones on the outside. Since it was spinning from the beginning, there was no need for friction to speed the atmosphere up. And since there's no friction from outside the atmosphere to slow it down, it just keeps spinning.

P.S. no personal checks please.

I think that if you either stir coffee too fast or rotate the cup very fast, the coffee will be spilled. And for a gas as the Air it would be very easier to be shot away with 1030mph rotation.

But anyway, I cant imagine how an open Air would be dragged along by the Earth. How could every Air molecule would be restricted and set in order(as in rigid solids), moving at 1030mph. The only way this could happen is if the Air was trapped inside the Earth, inside a sealed solid material. I think people can make the Air rotate only inside tubes.

As I said before, gravity is like a dip (bowl) in space time. The dip in space time prevents objects with not enough momentum from escaping Earth's gravity. Unless, say, a comet passed by Earth at a great velocity, most things don't have enough force to climb out of this "bowl" in space. This is why heavy lift rockets are needed to climb out of this gravity "bowl".

This is why heavy lift rockets are needed to climb out of this gravity "bowl".

And most rockets don't ever escape this gravity bowl, they just circle it in orbit.

I know there is some clever minded people on this site, even some that believe the earth is spinning, yet to actually go along with and believe that air can rotate with a solid ball, all the way to the so called edge of space really makes me wonder just how badly this has been whipped into peoples minds.
I'm serious. It's got to the point of scary that people can believe in such bull crap.

Because we have the "edge of space" as opposed to an immovable ceiling or anything like that, it's actually easier for the air to rotate with the Earth. Explaining this idea to you in more depth would be a waste of time however, so I'll stop there.

The OP asked you to use logic. I agree with him, so try using it instead of bringing up silly figures that show nothing when pertaining to stuff like this.

Did you watch the video I linked earlier in this thread about how logic has failed countless philosophers for millennia?

It's not logic that's failed people, it's brute force of indoctrination that squashed logic.

Really scepti, really?

So the indoctrination began with Newton in the 17th century? Or was it before that, because people have known the world was round for a very long time now.

Could you please, for the purpose of it being made official, say whether Newton is right or wrong.

My scepticism and sheer doubt over a lot of history lurks within me.

I did not know you were pretentious as well as an idiot.

Quote from: Shmeggley on April 11, 2013, 10:30:21 AM

Quote from: True Myth on April 10, 2013, 03:48:53 AM

Gravity or something keeps the Air down, but Air has still freedom of motion. Friction is the force of resistance that a moving body faces by another body.

Air (as a gas mixture) is a fluid of random motion molecules with a low viscosity. A supposed friction between a rotating Earth and the Air(who surrounds Earth) would cause high turbulence of the Air.

I pay 1.000.000.000 $ to a rotating Earth believer who can answer the following question:
How can the friction between a rotating Earth and the Air, would put the random molecules of the Air in order(close to each other) and line, following a constant frantic speed of 1030mph.

It sounds like you are picturing the Earth trying to push the atmosphere from a standstill up to the 1000mph it is now. Even if this were the case, I think you are right that there would a lot of turbulence, but only at the beginning. Eventually the air would catch up and on average end up moving the same speed as the surface. Think of stirring coffee with a spoon: resistance at first, but then you get a nice smooth movement if you keep stirring.

But there's really a better explanation. When the Earth formed, it was from a big cloud of gas and dust (so the theory goes) that spun faster and faster (due to conservation of angular momentum) as it contracted (due to gravity). Heavier elements naturally settled at the centre an lighter ones on the outside. Since it was spinning from the beginning, there was no need for friction to speed the atmosphere up. And since there's no friction from outside the atmosphere to slow it down, it just keeps spinning.

P.S. no personal checks please.

I think that if you either stir coffee too fast or rotate the cup very fast, the coffee will be spilled. And for a gas as the Air it would be very easier to be shot away with 1030mph rotation.

But anyway, I cant imagine how an open Air would be dragged along by the Earth. How could every Air molecule would be restricted and set in order(as in rigid solids), moving at 1030mph. The only way this could happen is if the Air was trapped inside the Earth, inside a sealed solid material. I think people can make the Air rotate only inside tubes.

Not to alarm you, but air does get "shot into space". The fastest moving molecules end up at the top of the atmosphere and some do escape Earth's gravity. But there is a lot of air and it's a slow process.

And I'm not sure what you mean by air being "restricted and set in order" - it's not. Air molecules fly in all different directions. They only follow the Earth's rotation on average.

Quote from: True Myth on April 11, 2013, 11:26:06 PM

But anyway, I cant imagine how an open Air would be dragged along by the Earth. How could every Air molecule would be restricted and set in order(as in rigid solids), moving at 1030mph. The only way this could happen is if the Air was trapped inside the Earth, inside a sealed solid material. I think people can make the Air rotate only inside tubes.

And I'm not sure what you mean by air being "restricted and set in order" - it's not. Air molecules fly in all different directions. They only follow the Earth's rotation on average.

It bothers me that I already responded to this point BEFORE you said this, ages ago, and that Shmeggley had to deal with it again. Air flies all over the place! We still have winds, storms, hurricanes! To say "every Air molecule would be restricted and set in order(as in rigid solids)" is RIDICULOUS. WE KNOW THAT WOULDN'T HAPPEN. AND IT DOESN'T.

Although it doesnt let me  send a personal message, thanks for the info Sandokhan.