Words from a sailor.

I am an oceanographer in the US Navy. I am constantly in communication while underway with Quartermasters which are responsible with navigation. I deploy from the west coast on voyage's toward Asia. It is common that we hit ports along the way and recently we did so on our way to Japan. One of the ports we hit on the way there was in Hawaii. This is common but it is actually well known and self-evident as a sailor that this is a much longer way to get across the Pacific Ocean than what is known as the Great Circle. Getting there through Hawaii is fairly close to a straight line and the travel time for that cruise lasted nearly 3 weeks traveling at about 18 kts. On the way back was a different story because there were no planned port visits so our intention was to get back to the United States as quickly as possible. We did a hull swap in Japan and replaced our newer ship with one which needed repair back in the states so we needed a way to get back faster, but with a ship that couldn't go as fast as 18 kts. So at a max of 15 kts, we used the Great Circle which meant we traveled in a curve stretching from Japan, northwestward toward Alaska and curving back southeastward toward southern California. This took only 2 weeks of travel time. This is only possible with a spherical earth model. There is no reason to think there is a conspiracy and there is nothing to gain by anyone if there was one.

Anyways, have a nice day.

And thank you sir.

I am an oceanographer in the US Navy. I am constantly in communication while underway with Quartermasters which are responsible with navigation. I deploy from the west coast on voyage's toward Asia. It is common that we hit ports along the way and recently we did so on our way to Japan. One of the ports we hit on the way there was in Hawaii. This is common but it is actually well known and self-evident as a sailor that this is a much longer way to get across the Pacific Ocean than what is known as the Great Circle. Getting there through Hawaii is fairly close to a straight line and the travel time for that cruise lasted nearly 3 weeks traveling at about 18 kts. On the way back was a different story because there were no planned port visits so our intention was to get back to the United States as quickly as possible. We did a hull swap in Japan and replaced our newer ship with one which needed repair back in the states so we needed a way to get back faster, but with a ship that couldn't go as fast as 18 kts. So at a max of 15 kts, we used the Great Circle which meant we traveled in a curve stretching from Japan, northwestward toward Alaska and curving back southeastward toward southern California. This took only 2 weeks of travel time. This is only possible with a spherical earth model. There is no reason to think there is a conspiracy and there is nothing to gain by anyone if there was one.

Anyways, have a nice day.

The same route would be fastest on a flat earth as well...   

What map are you using?  The ice wall map?

Quote from: rottingroom on April 09, 2013, 09:39:14 AM

I am an oceanographer in the US Navy. I am constantly in communication while underway with Quartermasters which are responsible with navigation. I deploy from the west coast on voyage's toward Asia. It is common that we hit ports along the way and recently we did so on our way to Japan. One of the ports we hit on the way there was in Hawaii. This is common but it is actually well known and self-evident as a sailor that this is a much longer way to get across the Pacific Ocean than what is known as the Great Circle. Getting there through Hawaii is fairly close to a straight line and the travel time for that cruise lasted nearly 3 weeks traveling at about 18 kts. On the way back was a different story because there were no planned port visits so our intention was to get back to the United States as quickly as possible. We did a hull swap in Japan and replaced our newer ship with one which needed repair back in the states so we needed a way to get back faster, but with a ship that couldn't go as fast as 18 kts. So at a max of 15 kts, we used the Great Circle which meant we traveled in a curve stretching from Japan, northwestward toward Alaska and curving back southeastward toward southern California. This took only 2 weeks of travel time. This is only possible with a spherical earth model. There is no reason to think there is a conspiracy and there is nothing to gain by anyone if there was one.

Anyways, have a nice day.

The same route would be fastest on a flat earth as well...   

Except for the fact that I did mention that we changed direction throughout the trip. I mentioned that we curved northeastward toward Alaska and then curved southeastward toward Southern California. I made careful observations about the direction the ship was going  (that is part of my job) and could even see the trail behind the ship throughout the trek that showed that the ship was in fact slightly turning the whole time. On a flat earth the ship would not have been turning, that would have been fastest because it would be a straight line, but on the spherical model it is fastest because it is a curve and this is proven by the ship turning.

It is true that by the laws of geometry on plane (which the Flat Earth effectively is) that no line that has a curve can be the most direct route.

It is true that by the laws of geometry on plane (which the Flat Earth effectively is) that no line that has a curve can be the most direct route.

Correct, however we turned the whole way and it was the shortest route. So, not a flat Earth.

I just wanted to point that out for all those FEers who might try and make a bizarre interpretation of your story.

This is common but it is actually well known and self-evident as a sailor that this is a much longer way to get across the Pacific Ocean than what is known as the Great Circle. Getting there through Hawaii is fairly close to a straight line

On a sphere, a great circle is a straight line.   

Also, you seem to be saying that getting from point A to point B is quicker if you travel along a direct path (as you did coming back) rather than a zig-zagging course that hits lots of ports (as you did on the way down).  I think you'll find that a direct path is always shorter than a zig-zagging one, as a matter of common sense and independent of the actual shape of the Earth.

Quote from: rottingroom on April 09, 2013, 09:39:14 AM

This is common but it is actually well known and self-evident as a sailor that this is a much longer way to get across the Pacific Ocean than what is known as the Great Circle. Getting there through Hawaii is fairly close to a straight line

On a sphere, a great circle is a straight line.   

There are multiple meanings. In regards to a distance travelled, a great circle is a geodesic. Nice attempt at discrediting the gentleman though.

Also, you seem to be saying that getting from point A to point B is quicker if you travel along a direct path (as you did coming back) rather than a zig-zagging course that hits lots of ports (as you did on the way down).  I think you'll find that a direct path is always shorter than a zig-zagging one, as a matter of common sense and independent of the actual shape of the Earth.

Did you miss the part where he said that his journey to Japan was mostly a straight line?  Zig-zagging is never mentioned. Also, even if he stayed in Hawaii a week it still would not explain the speed of the return trip.

rottingroom-how long were you in Hawaii?

Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist on April 09, 2013, 12:31:31 PM

Quote from: rottingroom on April 09, 2013, 09:39:14 AM

This is common but it is actually well known and self-evident as a sailor that this is a much longer way to get across the Pacific Ocean than what is known as the Great Circle. Getting there through Hawaii is fairly close to a straight line

On a sphere, a great circle is a straight line.   

There are multiple meanings. In regards to a distance travelled, a great circle is a geodesic. Nice attempt at discrediting the gentleman though.

No, there are no multiple meanings.  Whether you call it a great circle route or a geodesic (which by the way are exactly the same thing on a sphere) it is a straight line.

I feel the gentleman essentially discredited himself.  If you have a real point to make that suggests I'm wrong, please be my guest and make it.

Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist on April 09, 2013, 12:34:06 PM

Also, you seem to be saying that getting from point A to point B is quicker if you travel along a direct path (as you did coming back) rather than a zig-zagging course that hits lots of ports (as you did on the way down).  I think you'll find that a direct path is always shorter than a zig-zagging one, as a matter of common sense and independent of the actual shape of the Earth.

Did you miss the part where he said that his journey to Japan was mostly a straight line?  Zig-zagging is never mentioned. Also, even if he stayed in Hawaii a week it still would not explain the speed of the return trip.

Zig-zagging was very much implied.  The OP explicitly states that they hit a number of ports including Hawaii:

One of the ports we hit on the way there was in Hawaii.

Perhaps you should read the passage more carefully before accusing others of not reading it carefully enough, eh? 

I wasn't thinking about layover time, but of course you're right; if they spent any time at the ports themselves that adds to the overall amount of time the trip took too.

I read it. A number of ports could be two. The ports could be on a straight line. You assumed they were zig-zagging, it is never described.

I read it. A number of ports could be two. The ports could be on a straight line. You assumed they were zig-zagging, it is never described.

Why don't you let him explain himself rather than speak for him?  The bottom line is, if his story is 100% true, all it proves is that a more direct route is faster than a less direct route.  Duh.

It does. It also proves that the most direct route requires constant turning, which is not true on a FE.

It does. It also proves that the most direct route requires constant turning, which is not true on a FE.

It proves absolutely nothing about the most direct route.

Alright, just that on Earth a curved line is more direct than a straight line.  My bad!

Oh, my apologies.  This:

we used the Great Circle which meant we traveled in a curve

is pure nonsense.  A great circle route does not curve.  Perhaps I should have read it more carefully than I did.  Whether he's really a sailor or not he has no idea what he's talking about.  Oh well, another potentially interesting debater bites the dust.

Quote from: rottingroom on April 09, 2013, 09:39:14 AM

This is common but it is actually well known and self-evident as a sailor that this is a much longer way to get across the Pacific Ocean than what is known as the Great Circle. Getting there through Hawaii is fairly close to a straight line

On a sphere, a great circle is a straight line.   

No, you're travelling in an arc. The straightest path on a sphere between two points would actually be a chord. However we're normally restricted to travelling on the surface of the sphere. So the path looks straight from one angle, looking at the circle from the edge, but looks curve from a different angle. Make sense?

Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist on April 09, 2013, 12:31:31 PM

Quote from: rottingroom on April 09, 2013, 09:39:14 AM

This is common but it is actually well known and self-evident as a sailor that this is a much longer way to get across the Pacific Ocean than what is known as the Great Circle. Getting there through Hawaii is fairly close to a straight line

On a sphere, a great circle is a straight line.   

No, you're travelling in an arc. The straightest path on a sphere between two points would actually be a chord. However we're normally restricted to travelling on the surface of the sphere. So the path looks straight from one angle, looking at the circle from the edge, but looks curve from a different angle. Make sense?

What does the apparent path from different perspectives have to do with it?  When traveling along a great circle, a vessel is traveling in a straight line.  It is not turning left.  It is not turning right.  The only curving the vessel is doing is downwards.

Bites the dust? I just had shit to do. A circle is a straight line on a sphere except that in order for you to achieve this straight line you have to turn. Why do you want to try so hard to disregard this stuff. What would anyone gain by deceiving you?

Bites the dust? I just had shit to do. A circle is a straight line on a sphere except that in order for you to achieve this straight line you have to turn. Why do you want to try so hard to disregard this stuff. What would anyone gain by deceiving you?

I didn't mean you wouldn't be back, just that you weren't credible.  You do not have to turn to travel along a great circle.  If you turn, it's not a great circle.  Posting a non sequitur like "in order for you to achieve this straight line you have to turn" doesn't change anything. 

Quote from: rottingroom on April 09, 2013, 01:51:53 PM

Bites the dust? I just had shit to do. A circle is a straight line on a sphere except that in order for you to achieve this straight line you have to turn. Why do you want to try so hard to disregard this stuff. What would anyone gain by deceiving you?

I didn't mean you wouldn't be back, just that you weren't credible.  You do not have to turn to travel along a great circle.  If you turn, it's not a great circle.  Posting a non sequitur like "in order for you to achieve this straight line you have to turn" doesn't change anything.

What makes you more credible than him?  You sound like a barking dog.  Be a big boy, go for the jugular, and end the debate with proof if you are so sure you are right.  Otherwise you sound like the kids we leave on the schoolyard in Grade 8... you know.. bullies.

Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist on April 09, 2013, 01:59:25 PM

Quote from: rottingroom on April 09, 2013, 01:51:53 PM

Bites the dust? I just had shit to do. A circle is a straight line on a sphere except that in order for you to achieve this straight line you have to turn. Why do you want to try so hard to disregard this stuff. What would anyone gain by deceiving you?

I didn't mean you wouldn't be back, just that you weren't credible.  You do not have to turn to travel along a great circle.  If you turn, it's not a great circle.  Posting a non sequitur like "in order for you to achieve this straight line you have to turn" doesn't change anything.

What makes you more credible than him?  You sound like a barking dog.  Be a big boy, go for the jugular, and end the debate with proof if you are so sure you are right.  Otherwise you sound like the kids we leave on the schoolyard in Grade 8... you know.. bullies.

Prove it for yourself.  Take a basketball and draw a circle around it such that the plane the circle forms bisects the ball in two.  Run a hot wheels car over the line.  Tell me how much you have to turn the wheels to keep it going straight.

You are still talking about bisecting a globe, when that was clearly -not- what the OP was about.  Move on.

You are still talking about bisecting a globe, when that was clearly -not- what the OP was about.  Move on.

No, we were definitely talking about great circles.

A great circle navigation route does not have to bisect the globe.  The Great Circle you are equivocating about is a meridian, a line of latitude.  You can look it up, its all true Truthinessist.

A great circle navigation route does not have to bisect the globe.  The Great Circle you are equivocating about is a meridian, a line of latitude.  You can look it up, its all true Truthinessist.

A great circle route, by definition, is one that bisects a sphere.  For example, all meridians are, in fact, great circles, and therefore require no turning (because they are geometrically straight lines).  So is the equator.  None of the other lines of latitude actually are.  When traveling east or west anywhere but the equator, one must turn.  Naturally there are an infinite number of other great circles besides the meridians and the equator; naturally, they all bisect a sphere just as the meridians and equator do; and naturally, all follow straight lines.

If it is a great circle route, it follows the path of a great circle.

btw a meridian is a line of longitude, not latitude.