What's Wrong With Gravity?

What's wrong with gravity is that no one can fully explain where it comes from or what it really is. You say that it's a force that's caused by an object's mass? Why does mass do that? OK, mass somehow bends space and time and we feel the effect as a force? What does that happen?

Never mind that the motions of the planets, moon, stars, etc. can all be explained if you allow for a force that is proportional to the mass and inversely proportional to the square of the distance. Even though that "works", and also happens to explain why planets are round and things fall on Earth, you can't "see" gravity, so therefore it is made up.

Of course you can do the same thing with magnetism, electricity, anything really. At some point you have to realize this is the way things behave, and these are the laws of that behaviour.

The fact that we can use these theories of gravity, electromagnetism, etc. to completely explain and accurately predict phenomena make them very robust. You can deny they have any basis in reality, but only if you continually ask "why?" until you fail to get an answer, and then conclude that because you can't get an answer at that point that the whole thing is "made up".

So what's "wrong" with gravity? Only that at the bottom of it, it's utterly mysterious, like everything else at that level. Oh well. Some of us like mystery, and some of us only like easy answers.

What's wrong with gravity is that no one can fully explain where it comes from or what it really is. You say that it's a force that's caused by an object's mass? Why does mass do that? OK, mass somehow bends space and time and we feel the effect as a force? What does that happen?

Never mind that the motions of the planets, moon, stars, etc. can all be explained if you allow for a force that is proportional to the mass and inversely proportional to the square of the distance. Even though that "works", and also happens to explain why planets are round and things fall on Earth, you can't "see" gravity, so therefore it is made up.

Of course you can do the same thing with magnetism, electricity, anything really. At some point you have to realize this is the way things behave, and these are the laws of that behaviour.

The fact that we can use these theories of gravity, electromagnetism, etc. to completely explain and accurately predict phenomena make them very robust. You can deny they have any basis in reality, but only if you continually ask "why?" until you fail to get an answer, and then conclude that because you can't get an answer at that point that the whole thing is "made up".

So what's "wrong" with gravity? Only that at the bottom of it, it's utterly mysterious, like everything else at that level. Oh well. Some of us like mystery, and some of us only like easy answers.

Just because you don't understand gravity, doesn't mean that the law of gravity is made up. The alternative theory (constant acceleration) doesn't even live up to simple observations.

Cartesian-he was agreeing with you.

Quote from: Cartesian on April 09, 2013, 09:28:20 AM

Quote from: hoppy on April 09, 2013, 09:14:54 AM

Measure what myself?

Have you ever had fixed weight change weights when you take it to the equator?

Yes I have. I did this 3-4 years ago during our family summer holiday. I did it for fun to show to my children the effect of the centrifugal force due to the earth rotation. I also showed them the direction of water swirling out from the sink is different between in "Northern Hemisphere" and ""Southern Hemisphere".

What was the differences in the weights?

The metal "lost" few grams at the equator and gained back its "lost" weight magically once I was back home.

Cartesian-he was agreeing with you.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my reply. I was expressing my disagreement with the attitude of some people he described which preferred simple answer, although completely wrong, rather than a more complicated one, but right.

Quote from: sceptimatic on April 09, 2013, 09:56:40 AM

Quote from: Cartesian on April 09, 2013, 09:28:20 AM

Quote from: hoppy on April 09, 2013, 09:14:54 AM

Measure what myself?

Have you ever had fixed weight change weights when you take it to the equator?

Yes I have. I did this 3-4 years ago during our family summer holiday. I did it for fun to show to my children the effect of the centrifugal force due to the earth rotation. I also showed them the direction of water swirling out from the sink is different between in "Northern Hemisphere" and ""Southern Hemisphere".

What was the differences in the weights?

The metal "lost" few grams at the equator and gained back its "lost" weight magically once I was back home.

I assume your were using a spring scale then?  You cannot lose grand as they are a measure of mass.

Quote from: Cartesian on April 09, 2013, 10:02:32 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on April 09, 2013, 09:56:40 AM

Quote from: Cartesian on April 09, 2013, 09:28:20 AM

Quote from: hoppy on April 09, 2013, 09:14:54 AM

Measure what myself?

Have you ever had fixed weight change weights when you take it to the equator?

Yes I have. I did this 3-4 years ago during our family summer holiday. I did it for fun to show to my children the effect of the centrifugal force due to the earth rotation. I also showed them the direction of water swirling out from the sink is different between in "Northern Hemisphere" and ""Southern Hemisphere".

What was the differences in the weights?

The metal "lost" few grams at the equator and gained back its "lost" weight magically once I was back home.

I assume your were using a spring scale then?  You cannot lose grand as they are a measure of mass.

I was using digital one which uses the same principle as spring scale which measures force or weight by balancing the force due to gravity against the force on a spring.

Could that not be due to expansion seeing as it's a few grams?...
As in, taking in water molecules adding weight and then returning back to it's original state?

AFAIK metal + water ends up in rust there is no way to return to exactly its original state.

Quote from: Cartesian on April 09, 2013, 10:02:32 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on April 09, 2013, 09:56:40 AM

Quote from: Cartesian on April 09, 2013, 09:28:20 AM

Quote from: hoppy on April 09, 2013, 09:14:54 AM

Measure what myself?

Have you ever had fixed weight change weights when you take it to the equator?

Yes I have. I did this 3-4 years ago during our family summer holiday. I did it for fun to show to my children the effect of the centrifugal force due to the earth rotation. I also showed them the direction of water swirling out from the sink is different between in "Northern Hemisphere" and ""Southern Hemisphere".

What was the differences in the weights?

The metal "lost" few grams at the equator and gained back its "lost" weight magically once I was back home.

Could that not be due to expansion seeing as it's a few grams?...
As in, taking in water molecules adding weight and then returning back to it's original state?

Water logged metal...

Quote from: Cartesian on April 09, 2013, 08:17:05 AM

Quote from: koolkat67 on April 09, 2013, 08:12:37 AM

Quote from: Cartesian on April 09, 2013, 08:06:31 AM

Quote from: koolkat67 on April 09, 2013, 07:59:45 AM

hmmm...how about everything goes down?  any explanation on flat earth how that happens?  what causes an object to go down instead of any other direction with its weight?

I guess FE'ers don't disagree with the existence of 9.8 m/s force that keeps you "glued" to earth. They just don't believe that it is caused by gravitation. They said that the earth is constantly accelerating upward at a rate of 9.8 m/s. But if that was true, then that force would have been constant throughout the surface of FE which can easily be demonstrated as incorrect.

well lets see if one these jokers say that accelerating at 9.8m/s^2...hmmmm...wonder how fast we're moving...lol.  what the hell is UA?  United Airlines?  lol  use your words, muggsy

At that rate, we need less than a year to reach faster than speed of light

Relativity.

I thought the point of FET was relying on observable evidence and linear thinking, not the ridiculous and unprovable Deus ex Machina that we have in relativity.

Observed and proven. Welcome to he 20th century!  You are only 100 years late!

You can argue that what we call gravity on Earth is actually just acceleration, but if you want to deny gravity you still need some force to account for the motion of the planets and their moons. For example, we can see the moons of Jupiter (yes I have seen them myself) and notice that they move around in orbits (Galileo did this).

Sceptimatic, you say you believe in the laws of motion, so how do you explain the orbits of the moons of Jupiter without a force?

Observed and proven. Welcome to he 20th century!  You are only 100 years late!

Only observed and proven by the government and their subsidiaries.

Which experiments were performed by the government and its subsidiaries?

Which experiments were performed by the government and its subsidiaries?

The experiments to "confirm" relativity were done with supercolliders (conveniently underground ones) paid for with government money, unless you have another method using a protractor, a string-bob and a stopwatch that I am unaware of.

I think we need some senior FE'ers to jump in the discussion

Quote from: Rama Set on April 09, 2013, 10:50:43 AM

Which experiments were performed by the government and its subsidiaries?

The experiments to "confirm" relativity were done with supercolliders (conveniently underground ones) paid for with government money, unless you have another method using a protractor, a string-bob and a stopwatch that I am unaware of.

Special Relativity was confirmed before particle accelerators were used:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tests_of_special_relativity#section_2

He said "how" scepti, not "with what".

Quote from: hoppy on April 09, 2013, 07:56:27 AM

Quote from: Cartesian on April 09, 2013, 07:53:03 AM

And moreover, it is also easy to demonstrate that the gravitation is weaker at the equator than at the poles due to the centrifugal force or the earth rotation of the RE model. A 100kg object at the poles weigh less than 100kg at the equator.

Do you have any evidence to support this outlandish claim? Please post it if you do.

hmmm...how about everything goes down?  any explanation on flat earth how that happens?  what causes an object to go down instead of any other direction with its weight?

You sound like you lack knowledge of FE Theory. Please educate yourself and read the FAQ.

Quote from: Cartesian on April 09, 2013, 08:06:31 AM

Quote from: koolkat67 on April 09, 2013, 07:59:45 AM

hmmm...how about everything goes down?  any explanation on flat earth how that happens?  what causes an object to go down instead of any other direction with its weight?

I guess FE'ers don't disagree with the existence of 9.8 m/s force that keeps you "glued" to earth. They just don't believe that it is caused by gravitation. They said that the earth is constantly accelerating upward at a rate of 9.8 m/s. But if that was true, then that force would have been constant throughout the surface of FE which can easily be demonstrated as incorrect.

well lets see if one these jokers say that accelerating at 9.8m/s^2...hmmmm...wonder how fast we're moving...lol.  what the hell is UA?  United Airlines?  lol  use your words, muggsy

Once again, we have a FAQ. I suggest you read it.

Quote from: Rama Set on April 09, 2013, 10:50:43 AM

Which experiments were performed by the government and its subsidiaries?

The experiments to "confirm" relativity were done with supercolliders (conveniently underground ones) paid for with government money, unless you have another method using a protractor, a string-bob and a stopwatch that I am unaware of.

I don't know what was proven about relativity with supercolliders, maybe you are thinking about particle physics and quantum theories?

The observations showing relativity to be correct were things like light being "bent" by the sun, shown by star observations near the edge of the sun during eclipse, precession of Mercury's orbit, and time dilation on a high speed aircraft. No secret underground facilities required. Not exactly easy observations to make either, but let's be clear about what we're talking about.

Quote from: Shmeggley on April 09, 2013, 10:35:51 AM

You can argue that what we call gravity on Earth is actually just acceleration, but if you want to deny gravity you still need some force to account for the motion of the planets and their moons. For example, we can see the moons of Jupiter (yes I have seen them myself) and notice that they move around in orbits (Galileo did this).

Sceptimatic, you say you believe in the laws of motion, so how do you explain the orbits of the moons of Jupiter without a force?

Electro magnetism.

Total non-starter and totally irrelevant. Not in any way supported by any observation of anything, ever.

Here is a source that would seem to support the notion that same object weighs more at the poles [or the hub/rim] then it does at the equator.

To me this suggests that the notion of the earth-plane accelerating upward at a uniform rate is flawed.

I'm a little puzzled as to why, Zetetically, the notion of 'gravity' is needed anyhow.  We're attracted to the earth-plane in the same manner as magnets attract each other.  No further explanation of the phenomena is needed.

I'm certainly not loosing sleep at night about it.

Why does no one seem to be answering my question?
Except of the first one.
Just because you see it doesn't mean it's true. As many FEs say, the curvature of the earth can only seen at 600, 000 or something miles in the air. I personally don't believe that because I once went to Gold Coast and once I swept my eyes over the landscape, I could notice the slight curving.

Quote from: koolkat67 on April 09, 2013, 08:12:37 AM

Quote from: Cartesian on April 09, 2013, 08:06:31 AM

Quote from: koolkat67 on April 09, 2013, 07:59:45 AM

hmmm...how about everything goes down?  any explanation on flat earth how that happens?  what causes an object to go down instead of any other direction with its weight?

I guess FE'ers don't disagree with the existence of 9.8 m/s force that keeps you "glued" to earth. They just don't believe that it is caused by gravitation. They said that the earth is constantly accelerating upward at a rate of 9.8 m/s. But if that was true, then that force would have been constant throughout the surface of FE which can easily be demonstrated as incorrect.

well lets see if one these jokers say that accelerating at 9.8m/s^2...hmmmm...wonder how fast we're moving...lol.  what the hell is UA?  United Airlines?  lol  use your words, muggsy

Once again, we have a FAQ. I suggest you read it.

again no answer.  I can do the same and refer you to millions of documents on gravity.  Read what section you're in...Debate.

Quote from: Shmeggley on April 09, 2013, 10:35:51 AM

You can argue that what we call gravity on Earth is actually just acceleration, but if you want to deny gravity you still need some force to account for the motion of the planets and their moons. For example, we can see the moons of Jupiter (yes I have seen them myself) and notice that they move around in orbits (Galileo did this).

Sceptimatic, you say you believe in the laws of motion, so how do you explain the orbits of the moons of Jupiter without a force?

Electro magnetism.

Do you realize how weak your argument is? Magnet has only two poles (N and S) which can pull metal objects. Non pole sides don't attract. When an object rotate around a magnet, at one point it will pass over the non pole side hence will lose the attraction from the magnet. The centrifugal force from the rotation will then push the object away from the magnet.

Fail!

Quote from: koolkat67 on April 09, 2013, 08:12:37 AM

Quote from: Cartesian on April 09, 2013, 08:06:31 AM

Quote from: koolkat67 on April 09, 2013, 07:59:45 AM

hmmm...how about everything goes down?  any explanation on flat earth how that happens?  what causes an object to go down instead of any other direction with its weight?

I guess FE'ers don't disagree with the existence of 9.8 m/s force that keeps you "glued" to earth. They just don't believe that it is caused by gravitation. They said that the earth is constantly accelerating upward at a rate of 9.8 m/s. But if that was true, then that force would have been constant throughout the surface of FE which can easily be demonstrated as incorrect.

well lets see if one these jokers say that accelerating at 9.8m/s^2...hmmmm...wonder how fast we're moving...lol.  what the hell is UA?  United Airlines?  lol  use your words, muggsy

Once again, we have a FAQ. I suggest you read it.

mbone99, which part of the FAQ explains why the "glue force" is not constant throughout the surface of FE, why an object can be heavier at the poles than at the equator?

That FAQ only says about constant acceleration model which cannot explain the "anomaly" I described above. But if somehow you can see the explanation hidden somewhere in the FAQ, please paste the relevant section here so everybody can read it.

Here is a source that would seem to support the notion that same object weighs more at the poles [or the hub/rim] then it does at the equator.

To me this suggests that the notion of the earth-plane accelerating upward at a uniform rate is flawed.

I'm a little puzzled as to why, Zetetically, the notion of 'gravity' is needed anyhow.  We're attracted to the earth-plane in the same manner as magnets attract each other.  No further explanation of the phenomena is needed.

I'm certainly not loosing sleep at night about it.

The pulling force we observe on earth is certainly not due to electromagnetic force because the majority of objects is not made of metal. And then, why are all objects, regardless what they are made of and even the air we breathe, attracted to earth plane if it is not by the gravity force or by the flawed force as explained by the "constant acceleration" theory?

Why does no one seem to be answering my question?
Except of the first one.
Just because you see it doesn't mean it's true. As many FEs say, the curvature of the earth can only seen at 600, 000 or something miles in the air. I personally don't believe that because I once went to Gold Coast and once I swept my eyes over the landscape, I could notice the slight curving.

Shmeggley did also give an answer to your question in page 2. But obviously, there is no answer from FE'ers themselves. None of them explained why they don't like the concept of gravity.

Quote from: mbone99 on April 09, 2013, 02:19:12 PM

Once again, we have a FAQ. I suggest you read it.

again no answer.  I can do the same and refer you to millions of documents on gravity.  Read what section you're in...Debate.

To be honest I am new here but I can already see the that FE followers can basically be categorized into three groups based on their reaction when faced with a difficult question:

1. Quiet ones: those who prefer to stay silent
2. Lazy ones:  those who suggest to read the FAQ without bothering to understand the topic
3. Noisy ones: those who propose nonsensical argument, although so far I haven't seen anyone of this group in this thread