Poll

What is the correct distance from the earth to the moon  and the size of the moon ?

Flat Earth Measurements Of (Exact ?) 15 KM Distance /  600 M Diameter of the moon
Round Earth Measurements By  Ham Radio (approximately ? ) 237, 150 Miles Distance / 2,150 Mile Diameter of the moon
Some Other Measurements Such As The FE 3000 Mile  Distance / 30 Mile Diameter of the moon

Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.

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Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #390 on: September 09, 2013, 08:29:33 PM »
No type of radio wave is powerful enough to reach the moon, this thread is wrong and  I don't even have to read it, thanks for making it easy, RE'ers.

If you have made that post, you have evidently read it . Why ?

If ignorance is bliss, this guy must be the happiest person on earth ! ....On a flat earth, that is. LOL.

However, I 'm happy to see a few more votes from the FE's. Since this is The Flat Earth Society Forum I was expecting the results of the poll would be the opposite of the present trend.

I sincerely do miss Excelsior John and Sceptimatic.....Haven't had any more pasta from Sandokhan either.  :'(
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 08:41:50 PM by Googleotomy »
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

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markjo

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Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #391 on: September 09, 2013, 08:41:19 PM »
Markjo, if I make a distinction between microwave and radio wave, then obviously I'm excluding any overlapping spectra.
Are you suggesting that there is any distinction between radio waves and microwaves?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Rushy

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Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #392 on: September 09, 2013, 08:49:20 PM »
Are you suggesting that there is any distinction between radio waves and microwaves?

Yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave

There is no one end-all definition for EM spectra, but I thought I was being pretty clear on what I was referring to. Radio waves and microwaves are not always defined to be the same thing.

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markjo

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Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #393 on: September 09, 2013, 08:55:49 PM »
Are you suggesting that there is any distinction between radio waves and microwaves?

Yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave

There is no one end-all definition for EM spectra, but I thought I was being pretty clear on what I was referring to. Radio waves and microwaves are not always defined to be the same thing.
Microwave refers to a range of wavelengths and radio frequencies are classified by wavelength.  So, how are microwaves not radio waves, especially when used for communication purposes?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Rushy

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Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #394 on: September 09, 2013, 08:58:18 PM »
Microwave refers to a range of wavelengths and radio frequencies are classified by wavelength.  So, how are microwaves not radio waves, especially when used for communication purposes?

I never said microwaves are not radio waves.

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markjo

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Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #395 on: September 09, 2013, 09:11:53 PM »
I never said microwaves are not radio waves.

That was the obvious implication when you said this:
Do you see any radio communication being used in space? Even satellites supposedly use microwaves and NASA ensures that their moon measurements are light-spectrum based.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Rushy

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Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #396 on: September 09, 2013, 09:43:34 PM »
That was the obvious implication when you said this:

There was no implication, I said exactly what I meant to say. The only problem seems to be on your end. Do you think that all radio waves are microwaves?

Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #397 on: September 10, 2013, 12:30:37 AM »
Quote from: Rushy
I never said microwaves are not radio waves.
Quote from: Rushy
Even satellites supposedly use microwaves

Can I conclude that satellites supposedly use radio wave?



Quote from: Rushy
No type of radio wave is powerful enough to reach the moon, this thread is wrong and  I don't even have to read it, thanks for making it easy, RE'ers.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 01:41:02 AM by Cartesian »
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Rama Set

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Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #398 on: September 10, 2013, 05:03:16 AM »
...because everyone who knows what a radiowave is would scoff at the idea.



Can you support this claim?
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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markjo

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Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #399 on: September 10, 2013, 05:35:52 AM »
That was the obvious implication when you said this:

There was no implication, I said exactly what I meant to say. The only problem seems to be on your end. Do you think that all radio waves are microwaves?
Radio waves cover a wide range of frequencies, including, but not limited to, frequencies in the microwave band.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Rushy

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Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #400 on: September 10, 2013, 06:01:14 AM »
Can I conclude that satellites supposedly use radio wave?

Indeed.

Radio waves cover a wide range of frequencies, including, but not limited to, frequencies in the microwave band.

But do microwaves cover the radio band, Markjo? I hope you see what I'm getting at, here.

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Junker

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Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #401 on: September 10, 2013, 06:19:15 AM »
Ignore him, Phoenix.  He's obviously trolling, and unlike EJ, he's not going away.


Wow. Just, wow. It's going to take me while to come to terms with this level of stupid.


Both of you, please keep it out of the upper fora.  Either have a discussion, or don't post.  Consider this a warning.

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markjo

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Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #402 on: September 10, 2013, 06:23:26 AM »
Radio waves cover a wide range of frequencies, including, but not limited to, frequencies in the microwave band.
But do microwaves cover the radio band, Markjo?
Let's see, the microwave band covers from about 300 MHz to 300 GHz and the radio frequencies go from about 3 KHz to about 300 GHz, so I think that it's safe to say that the microwave band covers a good chunk of the range of frequencies used for radio.

Quote
I hope you see what I'm getting at, here.
I'm not sure if you know what you're getting at.  First you said:
Do you see any radio communication being used in space?
Which implies that that radio communication is not being used in space.

Then you said:
Even satellites supposedly use microwaves...
Which, following your previous statement, implies that microwaves are not a form of radio communication.

Am I misinterpreting what you said or are you just being deliberately vague and misleading?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #403 on: September 10, 2013, 07:27:25 AM »
Can I conclude that satellites supposedly use radio wave?

Indeed.

OK, let's just use the term radio wave regardless of its spectrum here.

But before I can engage in a discussion you first need to help me to understand your claim. I suppose it is safe to assume that you don't believe that moon bounce (earth-moon-earth or EME) can be achieved using radio wave.  What I don't understand is your argument. When you said "even satellites supposedly use microwaves... ", did you mean that satellites didn't use radio wave or you didn't believe that satellites existed or something else?
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Rushy

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Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #404 on: September 10, 2013, 07:49:55 AM »
Let's see, the microwave band covers from about 300 MHz to 300 GHz and the radio frequencies go from about 3 KHz to about 300 GHz, so I think that it's safe to say that the microwave band covers a good chunk of the range of frequencies used for radio.

That's a lot of words to answer "no" to my question.

Which implies that that radio communication is not being used in space.

Does it? Or do you want to think it does?

Am I misinterpreting what you said or are you just being deliberately vague and misleading?

The problem appears to be most definitely on your end.

OK, let's just use the term radio wave regardless of its spectrum here.

But before I can engage in a discussion you first need to help me to understand your claim. I suppose it is safe to assume that you don't believe that moon bounce (earth-moon-earth or EME) can be achieved using radio wave.  What I don't understand is your argument. When you said "even satellites supposedly use microwaves... ", did you mean that satellites didn't use radio wave or you didn't believe that satellites existed or something else?

If NASA must use microwaves to reach satellites, then by what reasoning could any type of radio wave reach thousands of kilometers farther and hit the moon? Not to mention that this experiment requires you to be bouncing waves off the moon, something NASA claims it only did so with the aid of mirrors and they received a grand total of one photon back. Yes, they claim one photon proves they went to the moon.

Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #405 on: September 10, 2013, 08:18:26 AM »
OK, let's just use the term radio wave regardless of its spectrum here.

But before I can engage in a discussion you first need to help me to understand your claim. I suppose it is safe to assume that you don't believe that moon bounce (earth-moon-earth or EME) can be achieved using radio wave.  What I don't understand is your argument. When you said "even satellites supposedly use microwaves... ", did you mean that satellites didn't use radio wave or you didn't believe that satellites existed or something else?

If NASA must use microwaves to reach satellites, then by what reasoning could any type of radio wave reach thousands of kilometers farther and hit the moon? Not to mention that this experiment requires you to be bouncing waves off the moon, something NASA claims it only did so with the aid of mirrors and they received a grand total of one photon back. Yes, they claim one photon proves they went to the moon.

Now I understand better your claim. Well at least we agree that NASA and satellites do exist. Laser is possible to use on the moon because we have placed some mirrors on it. These arrays of mirrors make precision measurement of the distance to the moon using laser possible. It doesn't mean that radio wave cannot be used to measure the distance to the moon. It can but with less precision. Radio wave have been used to measure the distance to other nearby objects where there are no mirrors.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 08:31:42 AM by Cartesian »
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markjo

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Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #406 on: September 10, 2013, 08:18:58 AM »
The problem appears to be most definitely on your end.
Then please clarify so that a simpleton like me can understand.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Rushy

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Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #407 on: September 10, 2013, 09:13:56 AM »
Then please clarify so that a simpleton like me can understand.

Microwaves are radio waves. (This part assumes you're using the broad definition of Radio waves, something normally only RF engineers use)

Radio waves are not microwaves.

Now I understand better your claim. Well at least we agree that NASA and satellites do exist.

Is theoretical postulation not a possibility?

Laser is possible to use on the moon because we have placed some mirrors on it. These arrays of mirrors make precision measurement of the distance to the moon using laser possible. It doesn't mean that radio wave cannot be used to measure the distance to the moon. It can but with less precision. Radio wave have been used to measure the distance to other nearby objects where there are no mirrors.

Radio waves are one of the most efficient, but terrible ways to measure things. We use systems such as RADAR because we can shoot out radio waves everywhere without frying someone's skull (at least assuming you're not standing next to the emitter), not because it is an accurate measurement of aerial or terrestrial subjects.


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markjo

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Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #408 on: September 10, 2013, 09:33:25 AM »
Then please clarify so that a simpleton like me can understand.

Microwaves are radio waves. (This part assumes you're using the broad definition of Radio waves, something normally only RF engineers use)

Not all radio waves are not microwaves.

Fixed that for you because, as you just said, microwaves are radio waves, there fore some radio waves are, indeed, microwaves.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #409 on: September 10, 2013, 09:40:28 AM »
Now I understand better your claim. Well at least we agree that NASA and satellites do exist.

Is theoretical postulation not a possibility?

Of course it is possible but I personally am not into a discussion about something which is assumed without proof as being self-evident or generally accepted, especially when used as a basis for an argument. It's kind not zetetic. I needed to know where I should stand. If you had said you didn't believe in NASA/satellites, I wouldn't have mentioned about mirrors on the moon. I would probably have asked you why you used something that you didn't believe yourself as an argument instead.


Laser is possible to use on the moon because we have placed some mirrors on it. These arrays of mirrors make precision measurement of the distance to the moon using laser possible. It doesn't mean that radio wave cannot be used to measure the distance to the moon. It can but with less precision. Radio wave have been used to measure the distance to other nearby objects where there are no mirrors.

Radio waves are one of the most efficient, but terrible ways to measure things. We use systems such as RADAR because we can shoot out radio waves everywhere without frying someone's skull (at least assuming you're not standing next to the emitter), not because it is an accurate measurement of aerial or terrestrial subjects.

Indeed, but although radio method is not high precision, it is enough to produce a value relatively close that scientists have obtained.
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Rushy

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Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #410 on: September 10, 2013, 09:52:26 AM »
Fixed that for you because, as you just said, microwaves are radio waves, there fore some radio waves are, indeed, microwaves.

The term "radio waves" is all inclusive. Therefore the statement "radio waves are not microwaves" is correct.

Indeed, but although radio method is not high precision, it is enough to produce a value relatively close that scientists have obtained.

Which scientists? "scientists" is not a magical term used to refer to a conglomeration of trustworthy people as far as I'm concerned.

Of course it is possible but I personally am not into a discussion about something which is assumed without proof as being self-evident or generally accepted, especially when used as a basis for an argument. It's kind not zetetic. I needed to know where I should stand. If you had said you didn't believe in NASA/satellites, I wouldn't have mentioned about mirrors on the moon. I would probably have asked you why you used something that you didn't believe yourself as an argument instead.

Belief is not a prerequisite to debate.

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rottingroom

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Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #411 on: September 10, 2013, 10:08:37 AM »
I hate to side with a FE'r here, especially this one but I think he is correct about the distinction between radiowaves and microwaves.

ra·di·o wave
noun
noun: radio wave; plural noun: radio waves; noun: radiowave; plural noun: radiowaves

    1.
    an electromagnetic wave of a frequency between about 104 and 1011 or 1012 Hz, as used for long-distance communication.

mi·cro·wave
ˈmīkrəˌwāv/
noun
noun: microwave; plural noun: microwaves

    1.
    an electromagnetic wave with a wavelength in the range 0.001–0.3 m, shorter than that of a normal radio wave but longer than those of infrared radiation. Microwaves are used in radar, in communications, and for heating in microwave ovens and in various industrial processes.

Both radio and micro waves are types of electromagnetic waves that are defined by the range that they fit in the electromagnetic spectrum.

Here's the spectrum which I'm sure we are all familiar with:



Wikipedia actually makes this distinction:

Quote
Microwave technology is extensively used for point-to-point telecommunications (i.e., non broadcast uses). Microwaves are especially suitable for this use since they are more easily focused into narrow beams than radio waves.

Honestly, why is this even relevant? This is just a semantic argument.

Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #412 on: September 10, 2013, 10:11:25 AM »
No type of radio wave is powerful enough to reach the moon, this thread is wrong and  I don't even have to read it, thanks for making it easy, RE'ers.

What information do you base your statememt ? : "No type of radio wave is powerful enough to reach the moon."

Well, the ham radio operators DID have their signals "powerful enough to reach the moon"..and "bounce" back to them. And they did do this for communications with other hams.
http://www.arrl.org/weak-signal-vhf-dx-meteor-scatter-eme-moonbounce

The most commonly used frequencies were in the 432 MHZ Amateur Radio Band.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 10:13:42 AM by Googleotomy »
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

*

Rushy

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Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #413 on: September 10, 2013, 10:13:40 AM »
What information do you base your statememt ? : "No type of radio wave is powerful enough to reach the moon."

Well, the ham radio operators DID have their signals "powerful enough to reach the moon"..and "bounce" back to them. And they did do this for communications with other hams.

The most commonly used frequencies were in the 432 MHZ Amateur Radio Band.

Is there an antenna on the moon to verify the wave you're receiving is actually getting to the moon? Or are you just receiving a signal back from the sky and assuming it came from the moon?

Honestly, why is this even relevant? This is just a semantic argument.

Welcome to FES, go ahead and stay awhile.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 10:16:20 AM by Rushy »

Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #414 on: September 10, 2013, 10:16:53 AM »
What information do you base your statememt ? : "No type of radio wave is powerful enough to reach the moon."

Well, the ham radio operators DID have their signals "powerful enough to reach the moon"..and "bounce" back to them. And they did do this for communications with other hams.

The most commonly used frequencies were in the 432 MHZ Amateur Radio Band.

The antennas were aimed at the moon. If you don't understand how this works, why don't you just contact the ARRL, some local Amateur Radio Club or some local Amateur Radio Club and they will be glad to explain how "Moon Bounce" works ? .....Oh, sorrry, my apologies....FE's don't do things like that.

Is there an antenna on the moon to verify the wave you're receiving is actually getting to the moon? Or are you just receiving a signal back from the sky and assuming it came from the moon?

I suggest we ignore all this nonsense. It's useless to post and try to explain it. In the jargon of ham radio, all I seem to be getting from "Rushy" is a lot of QRM ! LOL. In the words of a book reviewer who said of a bad book, "It's so stupid it's funny."  ;D
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 10:25:43 AM by Googleotomy »
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #415 on: September 10, 2013, 10:19:28 AM »
Which scientists? "scientists" is not a magical term used to refer to a conglomeration of trustworthy people as far as I'm concerned.

Here I refer to scientists as a whole, as a system. I trust in how the system works. When someone does a scientific work, he publishes his method and his result for anybody to scrutinize.  A scientist claims that a particle can travel faster than light, then everybody will do whatever they can to either confirm, deny or refine the result. As for me, I don't care which result they come up with at the end, because I trust that it comes out from the system.


Belief is not a prerequisite to debate.

That's probably where we differ.
I think, therefore I am

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Rushy

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Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #416 on: September 10, 2013, 10:24:25 AM »
The antennas were aimed at the moon. If you don't understand how this works, why don't you just contact the ARRL, some local Amateur Radio Club or some local Amateur Radio Club and they will be glad to explain how "Moon Bounce" works ? .....Oh, sorrry, my apologies....FE's don't do things like that.

That's a "no," then? Seriously. When I ask a question and the answer is an affirmative know, you guys can just say no. You don't have to give me a paragraph of poor excuses, because I'm not going to buy it.

You point an antenna at the moon and you just assume it's the moon bouncing it back. That sounds like what an amatuer would do. Ah, that's right. You are amatuers.

Here I refer to scientists as a whole, as a system. I trust in how the system works. When someone does a scientific work, he publishes his method and his result for anybody to scrutinize.  A scientist claims that a particle can travel faster than light, then everybody will do whatever they can to either confirm, deny or refine the result. As for me, I don't care which result they come up with at the end, because I trust that it comes out from the system.

Did you know scientists sometimes disagree with one another? They're not a monolithic entity you can refer to in order to make a point. "The scientists say so" is not a source.

That's probably where we differ.

Only the dull of mind live in echo chambers.

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rottingroom

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Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #417 on: September 10, 2013, 10:27:05 AM »

Here I refer to scientists as a whole, as a system. I trust in how the system works. When someone does a scientific work, he publishes his method and his result for anybody to scrutinize.  A scientist claims that a particle can travel faster than light, then everybody will do whatever they can to either confirm, deny or refine the result. As for me, I don't care which result they come up with at the end, because I trust that it comes out from the system.

Did you know scientists sometimes disagree with one another? They're not a monolithic entity you can refer to in order to make a point. "The scientists say so" is not a source.

Rushy, clearly Cartesian made that distinction.

Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #418 on: September 10, 2013, 10:27:13 AM »
Which scientists? "scientists" is not a magical term used to refer to a conglomeration of trustworthy people as far as I'm concerned.

Here I refer to scientists as a whole, as a system. I trust in how the system works. When someone does a scientific work, he publishes his method and his result for anybody to scrutinize.  A scientist claims that a particle can travel faster than light, then everybody will do whatever they can to either confirm, deny or refine the result. As for me, I don't care which result they come up with at the end, because I trust that it comes out from the system.


Belief is not a prerequisite to debate.

That's probably where we differ.

I will admit to prejudice and bias, but I do trust the amateur radio operators on "Moon Bounce."
Quite a few of them are also professional scientists, engineers and technicians. The term "Amateur Radio Operator" is just a distinction from commercial radio stations such as broadcast or TV. Main word is "not for profit." Amateur Radio Operators do not charge for their services. Another acronym is "PICON" : "In the Public Interest, Convenience or Necessity."

P.S. I wonder if "Rushy" understands how RADAR works ? It doesn't depend on an antenna on the target to get a signal on the returnl. Just to be one step ahead:  If "Rushy" should say, "Well RADAR isn't radio waves !" (That's been posted before). Look up the acronym for "RADAR" : It's "RADIO Detection And Ranging." "Moon Bounce" operates on the same principle...Using RADIO WAVES of course. ;D
« Last Edit: September 10, 2013, 10:39:08 AM by Googleotomy »
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

*

Rushy

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Re: Distance from the Earth to the Moon ? Ham Radio vs. Flat Earth Measurements.
« Reply #419 on: September 10, 2013, 10:32:10 AM »
Rushy, clearly Cartesian made that distinction.

No, it still sounds as if he is referring to "scientists" as a summation of a singular being.

I will admit to prejudice and bias, but I do trust the amateur radio operators on "Moon Bounce."

Measurements without verification are completely useless as anything but a fun-time hobby. No one would actually publish these results as real data for anything above hobbyist designs. At least NASA had the decency to place mirrors on the moon.