Why does the world seem to rotate above us, setting and rising at the horizon?

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jason_85

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Well I've thread through this entire thread and I think I'm pretty confident that there isn't anything muggsy has said that is not either wrong and/or irrelevant.
Jason, you are my least favorite noob.

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29silhouette

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...somehow keeps the sun the same size no matter how far away it is...
It is easy to observe that this is not the case.
Looks like the case to me. 

My zetetic experiment.
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,53015.msg1299792.html#msg1299792

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muggsybogues1

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...somehow keeps the sun the same size no matter how far away it is...
It is easy to observe that this is not the case.
Looks like the case to me. 

My zetetic experiment.
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,53015.msg1299792.html#msg1299792
I applaud your efforts, and you initially make a good case. As the thread goes on, it seems like there's some doubt about your experiment?

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muggsybogues1

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Since nobody has ever been able to explain why the stars appear to rotate in the opposite directions in the Northern and Southern hemispheres (on a Flat Earth), I thought I'd try to come up with something. I knew it was flawed from the start, and I was wondering if anyone could point out why. Did you understand what I was trying to say about how the Celestial sphere rotates as you travel South?
Even were the canopy rotating, the stars would appear like this from a fixed vantage point by the same laws of perspective that apply to all other heavenly bodies. Just like the planets, however, many stars have been shown to have independent motion.

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neimoka

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Since nobody has ever been able to explain why the stars appear to rotate in the opposite directions in the Northern and Southern hemispheres (on a Flat Earth), I thought I'd try to come up with something. I knew it was flawed from the start, and I was wondering if anyone could point out why. Did you understand what I was trying to say about how the Celestial sphere rotates as you travel South?
Even were the canopy rotating, the stars would appear like this from a fixed vantage point by the same laws of perspective that apply to all other heavenly bodies.
That sounds like bs to me, or maybe I'm just not getting what you're saying. Care to elaborate? Because if the earth is flat, and stars are on a dome above us, rotation of the dome absolutely would not explain the shown star trail pattern.

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Just like the planets, however, many stars have been shown to have independent motion.
Yes, but their independent motion does not contribute to above-mentioned star trail pattern.

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muggsybogues1

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Just like the planets, however, many stars have been shown to have independent motion.
Yes, but their independent motion does not contribute to above-mentioned star trail pattern.
So...they're not moving independently in your observation? I thought that was the point of your original post.

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neimoka

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Their independent motion is not discernible in such a star trail photograph, also their independent motion does not follow any such large scale pattern.

My point was, as I asked, if the stars rotate with a celestial dome then what causes a trail pattern as is seen in the photographs.

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neimoka

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For consideration, here's a star trail image photographed at the equator, camera pointed towards west:



The dome, and the stars, certainly appear to move very differently depending where you're located. I'd like to learn what could cause this?

There's an interesting interactive 360 degrees panorama on this web page: http://sguisard.astrosurf.com/Pagim/From_pole_to_pole.html

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muggsybogues1

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The dome, and the stars, certainly appear to move very differently depending where you're located. I'd like to learn what could cause this?
The best way I can think of to describe this to someone who doesn't understand the Laws of Perspective is as follows:

Consider three planes (A, B, C) flying in parallel, each 5 miles from wingtip-to-wingtip. Each plane has an observer beneath it.

Observer A sees plane A fly straight over him as B, and C are lower in the sky.
Observer B sees plane B fly straight over while A is on the left and C is on the right.
Observer C sees plane C fly straight over while A and B are lower in the sky.

Different observers see the planes moving very differently based on their location.

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Rama Set

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The dome, and the stars, certainly appear to move very differently depending where you're located. I'd like to learn what could cause this?
The best way I can think of to describe this to someone who doesn't understand the Laws of Perspective is as follows:

Consider three planes (A, B, C) flying in parallel, each 5 miles from wingtip-to-wingtip. Each plane has an observer beneath it.

Observer A sees plane A fly straight over him as B, and C are lower in the sky.
Observer B sees plane B fly straight over while A is on the left and C is on the right.
Observer C sees plane C fly straight over while A and B are lower in the sky.

Different observers see the planes moving very differently based on their location.

Astounding observation.  Now why do the stars rotate in different directions depending on which hemisphere you are in?
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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Shmeggley

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Since nobody has ever been able to explain why the stars appear to rotate in the opposite directions in the Northern and Southern hemispheres (on a Flat Earth), I thought I'd try to come up with something. I knew it was flawed from the start, and I was wondering if anyone could point out why. Did you understand what I was trying to say about how the Celestial sphere rotates as you travel South?
Even were the canopy rotating, the stars would appear like this from a fixed vantage point by the same laws of perspective that apply to all other heavenly bodies. Just like the planets, however, many stars have been shown to have independent motion.

You totally missed the point, although that's partly my fault. I really needed to add some pictures but it's complicated. Forget it. My point was that the only way I could explain the change in the direction of rotation of the stars (or the canopy) was to have it tilt as you move north and south. Obviously that can't work because it would have to be in a different position for every observer, if the Earth is flat, and the canopy is moving.

Of course this problem is easily solved if the Earth is round, because the angle you see the sky at changes with latitude.

And no, no, a thousand times no, perspective has nothing to do with the how the world seems to rotate above us, setting and rising at the horizon. If you can show me how this is supposed to work I will have to take that back, but I am certain you can't.
Giess what? I am a tin foil hat conspiracy lunatic who knows nothing... See what I'm getting at here?

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neimoka

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The dome, and the stars, certainly appear to move very differently depending where you're located. I'd like to learn what could cause this?
The best way I can think of to describe this to someone who doesn't understand the Laws of Perspective is as follows:

Consider three planes (A, B, C) flying in parallel, each 5 miles from wingtip-to-wingtip. Each plane has an observer beneath it.

Observer A sees plane A fly straight over him as B, and C are lower in the sky.
Observer B sees plane B fly straight over while A is on the left and C is on the right.
Observer C sees plane C fly straight over while A and B are lower in the sky.

Different observers see the planes moving very differently based on their location.

Astounding observation.  Now why do the stars rotate in different directions depending on which hemisphere you are in?

Remembering how all stars appear to set in the west when looking at them at the equator, it's astounding how those very same stars can appear to move in circles overhead when you're nearer the poles - and simultaneously in opposite directions in north and south!

Perspective has nothing to do with this.

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muggsybogues1

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And no, no, a thousand times no, perspective has nothing to do with the how the world seems to rotate above us, setting and rising at the horizon. If you can show me how this is supposed to work I will have to take that back, but I am certain you can't.
Did you read my previous post about airplanes?

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Shmeggley

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And no, no, a thousand times no, perspective has nothing to do with the how the world seems to rotate above us, setting and rising at the horizon. If you can show me how this is supposed to work I will have to take that back, but I am certain you can't.
Did you read my previous post about airplanes?

Yes, and it completely fails to explain how we see star trails move in circles of different directions in the different hemispheres. Maybe I just misunderstand how you think the stars move in relation to the Earth. Can you post a picture, or give more details at least?
Giess what? I am a tin foil hat conspiracy lunatic who knows nothing... See what I'm getting at here?

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neimoka

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And no, no, a thousand times no, perspective has nothing to do with the how the world seems to rotate above us, setting and rising at the horizon. If you can show me how this is supposed to work I will have to take that back, but I am certain you can't.
Did you read my previous post about airplanes?

Yes, and it completely fails to explain how we see star trails move in circles of different directions in the different hemispheres. Maybe I just misunderstand how you think the stars move in relation to the Earth. Can you post a picture, or give more details at least?

And that's just the tip of the iceberg, consider that while looking west at the equator you can see stars setting below the horizon, but another observer located further east looking east can simultaneously see those same stars rising and already above the horizon. If anyone here knows of a perspective effect that accounts for all this I'd very much like to hear more of it.

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29silhouette

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...somehow keeps the sun the same size no matter how far away it is...
It is easy to observe that this is not the case.
Looks like the case to me. 

My zetetic experiment.
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,53015.msg1299792.html#msg1299792
I applaud your efforts, and you initially make a good case. As the thread goes on, it seems like there's some doubt about your experiment?
Only from those who had some concern over image resolution or who holds which degrees and in what.  Also a few who didn't seem to understand that looking through a green lens makes things look green.

3 pictures of the sun throughout the day.  I merely posted what the camera captured.  The size didn't change.   

 

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neimoka

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So - is there a model that explains star movement above the flat earth?

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Rama Set

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Does the model have to work?
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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neimoka

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Rama Set

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That's gonna be a problem
Aether is the  characteristic of action or inaction of charged  & noncharged particals.

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neimoka

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so it seems =(

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darknavyseal

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  • Round Earth, for sure, maybe.
That's gonna be a problem

made me lol  ;D