Religion

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OMEGA MAN

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Re: Religion
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2013, 03:28:47 PM »
Before the ten commandments came along, no one knew that killing other people was wrong. We should all literally thank God for that little chestnut.
If you had any concept of the Exodus narrative you would realise [if you had any wit] that your statement was wrong.
BOLLOX.

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Blanko

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Re: Religion
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2013, 03:32:47 PM »
Before the ten commandments came along, no one knew that killing other people was wrong. We should all literally thank God for that little chestnut.
If you had any concept of the Exodus narrative you would realise [if you had any wit] that your statement was wrong.

Oh, I know. The bold text is for sarcasm, isn't it?

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Pongo

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Re: Religion
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2013, 03:37:19 PM »
Before the ten commandments came along, no one knew that killing other people was wrong. We should all literally thank God for that little chestnut.
If you had any concept of the Exodus narrative you would realise [if you had any wit] that your statement was wrong.

What do you mean? The part where God set a precedence to slaughter first born male children? See, before the 10 commandments came out it was okay to kill people, afterwords, not so much.

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rooster

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Re: Religion
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2013, 03:46:51 PM »
My dad had a similar interpretation. He thinks that people without religion can justify any of their actions and so are naturally going to be immoral. I was rather offended since he's basically calling me immoral. But that's kinda retarded. You don't need religion to still believe that the Ten Commandments are ethical. You don't need religion to have empathy for other people's well-being and treat people with respect and kindness. To not cheat, steal, murder, etc.

It was almost like he was saying that people without religion are sociopaths capable of rationalizing all of their cruel/negative/selfish actions.

I find it extremely irritating when Christians believe you cannot comprehend morality outside the Bible. You still need to understand the concepts of good and bad to justify Bible's teachings as being moral guidelines and to see if they have validity behind them. And to question them as well - why can a modern Christian have doubts about homosexuality being sinful?

Then again, I also find it irritating when they do think it isn't a sin. They're pretty much told to blindly believe everything their holy book tells them, and they can't even do that right.
Absolutely. And unfortunately the majority of serious discussions with my father are very frustrating.


And holy shit guys, next time I'll say "the five relevant commandments" not to be confused with the Ten Commandments. I forgot this is the pedantic fan club.

Re: Religion
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2013, 03:51:05 PM »
Th*rk is good.

he is

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Homesick Martian

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Re: Religion
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2013, 03:55:53 PM »
Before the ten commandments came along, no one knew that killing other people was wrong. We should all literally thank God for that little chestnut.

Do you think, before missionaries came, say, to Africa, people thought killing is nice?

I know of an old pagan prayer, commonly used in North Namibia in former times. They prayed to God or whomever to provide them enough lifestock not to suffer shortness of food and to be forced to raid other peoples and seize their cattle.

That's a very natural moral, not a Christian one. It is the duty of God to give me all conditions I need. If he fails, he is also responsable if I do bad.

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OMEGA MAN

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Re: Religion
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2013, 04:04:04 PM »
Before the ten commandments came along, no one knew that killing other people was wrong. We should all literally thank God for that little chestnut.
If you had any concept of the Exodus narrative you would realise [if you had any wit] that your statement was wrong.

Oh, I know. The bold text is for sarcasm, isn't it?

Sorry! the bold text is for my ailing eyesight. I really strain at times to read fine text. Nothing to do with sarcasm. Although I agree that my previous comment was somewhat sarcastic, I will withdraw it and offer my apologies. 
BOLLOX.

Re: Religion
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2013, 04:06:48 PM »
Then again, I also find it irritating when they do think it isn't a sin. They're pretty much told to blindly believe everything their holy book tells them, and they can't even do that right.

talk to christians much?
true wisdom is always concise

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Blanko

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Re: Religion
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2013, 04:12:57 PM »
Then again, I also find it irritating when they do think it isn't a sin. They're pretty much told to blindly believe everything their holy book tells them, and they can't even do that right.

talk to christians much?

I talk to a great many, but not necessarily about religion. Why?

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OMEGA MAN

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Re: Religion
« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2013, 04:30:33 PM »
Before the ten commandments came along, no one knew that killing other people was wrong. We should all literally thank God for that little chestnut.
If you had any concept of the Exodus narrative you would realise [if you had any wit] that your statement was wrong.

What do you mean? The part where God set a precedence to slaughter first born male children? See, before the 10 commandments came out it was okay to kill people, afterwords, not so much.
I think you will find that Abraham did not sacrifice Isaac and that gods mission was to test Abraham's faith in him. Human sacrifice was forbidden among the Hebrew nation although many of them ignored Hebrew law and chose to offer up there children to Baal and Molech.   

MOLECH:The children were set into hollows of the idols hands and set alight!


BAAL: Baal worship took many forms including mass sacrifice similar to Aztec culture.
BOLLOX.

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Pongo

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Re: Religion
« Reply #40 on: March 30, 2013, 04:34:46 PM »
Which part of Exodus is the Abraham story in again?

Re: Religion
« Reply #41 on: March 30, 2013, 05:56:49 PM »
Quote from: kevin

talk to christians much?

I talk to a great many, but not necessarily about religion. Why?

because you're overgeneralizing,

what you describe is characteristic of only a minority of christians, not all, or even most.

is your experience primarily with protestants?

true wisdom is always concise

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OMEGA MAN

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Re: Religion
« Reply #42 on: March 30, 2013, 06:16:13 PM »
Which part of Exodus is the Abraham story in again?

I did not say Abram/Abraham were part of the Exodus story. It was you who eluded to it, or possibly you were talking of the tenth plague set upon the Egyptians, but even that was not a commandment to the Hebrews to kill first born children. I grant that the tenth plague was brutal and some would argue it was even evil; but most definitely not a commandment to kill any one or any thing. The event of what was to become the passover must have been terrifying, even for the Hebrews. I cannot justify gods actions but neither do I know his plans or his mind?

PS Very interesting topic and glad to see an absence of trolling that frequently plagues religious debate.

           "Sláinte"
BOLLOX.

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squevil

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Re: Religion
« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2013, 06:21:29 PM »
The problem is Christianity, not religion. Sikhism, for example has a fine moral code. One I try to practice anyway.
Sikhism? I think you will find Sikhism of off limits to outsiders. You have to be born a Sikh and those not born Sikh are held to be inferior, in fact they believe that non-Sikh's have no mortal soul!
They also have no hesitation about burning non-Sikh's alive. Yeah...great belief system!
 THIS IS SIKH LOVE


Wrong.

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OMEGA MAN

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Re: Religion
« Reply #44 on: March 30, 2013, 06:29:02 PM »
The problem is Christianity, not religion. Sikhism, for example has a fine moral code. One I try to practice anyway.
Sikhism? I think you will find Sikhism of off limits to outsiders. You have to be born a Sikh and those not born Sikh are held to be inferior, in fact they believe that non-Sikh's have no mortal soul!
They also have no hesitation about burning non-Sikh's alive. Yeah...great belief system!
 THIS IS SIKH LOVE


Wrong.
Exceptionally poor counter argument. To the back of the class and detention!
BOLLOX.

Re: Religion
« Reply #45 on: March 30, 2013, 06:37:34 PM »
i know an american of european descent who has converted to sikhism.

i don't know of his standing among other sikhs, but he's never mentioned any second-rate status.
true wisdom is always concise

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OMEGA MAN

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Re: Religion
« Reply #46 on: March 30, 2013, 07:03:58 PM »
i know an american of european descent who has converted to sikhism.

i don't know of his standing among other Sikhs, but he's never mentioned any second-rate status.
The Sikh's are the people who introduced the caste system into India. They"grade" the worth of a person by their race and ethnicity, wealth and social standing. Christ for instance loved and tendered to the poor and he taught that those who follow him should do the same, although sadly few people who call themselves Christians follow the example he set. The Sikh's however regard the poor and desolate as "Untouchables". I find it difficult to square moral ethics and Sikh social segregation. In India you would never find a Sikh doing the kind of work Mother Theresa did!   
BOLLOX.

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Homesick Martian

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Re: Religion
« Reply #47 on: March 30, 2013, 07:10:36 PM »
i know an american of european descent who has converted to sikhism.

i don't know of his standing among other Sikhs, but he's never mentioned any second-rate status.
The Sikh's are the people who introduced the caste system into India. They"grade" the worth of a person by their race and ethnicity, wealth and social standing. Christ for instance loved and tendered to the poor and he taught that those who follow him should do the same, although sadly few people who call themselves Christians follow the example he set. The Sikh's however regard the poor and desolate as "Untouchables". I find it difficult to square moral ethics and Sikh social segregation. In India you would never find a Sikh doing the kind of work Mother Theresa did!

OMEGA MAN!

THE SIKHS HAVE NO CASE SYSTEM! THEY HAVE THEIR VERY ORIGIN IN A MOVEMENT AGAINST THE CASTE SYSTEM! WHY DO YOU ALLWAYS HAVE EVERYTHING WRONG!

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OMEGA MAN

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Re: Religion
« Reply #48 on: March 30, 2013, 07:22:25 PM »




Sikh
The Indian state of Punjab has the highest percentage of Dalits, as well as Sikhs in India.[15][78] While the Sikh Gurus criticized the hierarchy of the caste system, a caste system has historically existed amidst the Sikhs. In the Shiromani Gurdwara Prabandhak Committee, out of 140 seats, 20 are reserved for low caste Sikhs.[101][102]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_India#Sikh
BOLLOX.

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Homesick Martian

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Re: Religion
« Reply #49 on: March 30, 2013, 08:03:01 PM »
While the Sikh Gurus criticized the hierarchy of the caste system, a caste system has historically existed amidst the Sikhs.

You are right when you say, that many Sikhs adhere to the caste system. That's a problem among Sikhs as everywhere in India.

But you are wrong when you say that this has anything to do with Sikh religion, because their Scripture and doctrines very very clearly refuse any kind of castes. Their founder, Guru Nanak, really hated that.

So Sikhs who are proud of their caste are bad Sikhs.

Consequently you are totally wrong when you say "Sikhs are the people who introduced the caste system into India." I've no words how wrong you are!

I know that from books but you can easily look it up on the web, honestly, for it is basic stuff.

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babsinva

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Re: Religion
« Reply #50 on: March 30, 2013, 08:04:06 PM »
Ok, gonna preach you the truth now.

In fact we need only one commandment: Thou shalt not lie!

For if thou refrainst from lying,dude, there's no way that henceforth thou couldst further harm anyone for thy own benefit. An ally thou wilt be to thy neighbour. Yep.

Behold, since every Good hath its source from Truth, every Evil hath its source from the Lie? Get it?

But if you have a society of liars you need morals to keep them together. Turns out morals is the secret means to protect us from speaking the truth.

Bethink, convert and what's your account number?
Excellent post Homesick Martian. I think you may have a future in moral philosopy and ethics. :)

THE ONE COMMANDMENT NEEDED
Technically the one commandment you need is love one another.  It was said by Jesus and written in the New Testament as a new command.  If you love one another you will not lie to them or others nor commit adultery on them, steal from them, covet their goods, kill them, harm their livestock (or pets), destroy property or anything else.  Etc Etc.
Quote from Big Giant Head:  "Considered fictitious or phantom does not quantify its non-existence."

Quote from Soze:  "We cannot escape perception, but we can't assume reality doesn't exist outside of perception."

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OMEGA MAN

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Re: Religion
« Reply #51 on: March 30, 2013, 08:22:17 PM »
Ok, gonna preach you the truth now.

In fact we need only one commandment: Thou shalt not lie!

For if thou refrainst from lying,dude, there's no way that henceforth thou couldst further harm anyone for thy own benefit. An ally thou wilt be to thy neighbour. Yep.

Behold, since every Good hath its source from Truth, every Evil hath its source from the Lie? Get it?

But if you have a society of liars you need morals to keep them together. Turns out morals is the secret means to protect us from speaking the truth.

Bethink, convert and what's your account number?
Excellent post Homesick Martian. I think you may have a future in moral philosopy and ethics. :)

THE ONE COMMANDMENT NEEDED
Technically the one commandment you need is love one another.  It was said by Jesus and written in the New Testament as a new command.  If you love one another you will not lie to them or others nor commit adultery on them, steal from them, covet their goods, kill them, harm their livestock (or pets), destroy property or anything else.  Etc Etc.
Concur.
BOLLOX.

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Homesick Martian

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Re: Religion
« Reply #52 on: March 30, 2013, 08:35:50 PM »
THE ONE COMMANDMENT NEEDED
Technically the one commandment you need is love one another.  It was said by Jesus and written in the New Testament as a new command.  If you love one another you will not lie to them or others nor commit adultery on them, steal from them, covet their goods, kill them, harm their livestock (or pets), destroy property or anything else.  Etc Etc.

I cannot do that. Fact. To me it is just easier to be honest to my neighbour, even if I don't like him, than to love him, when I really don't. That may be a shortcoming of mine, but I do not want to be wholly and if I would try to be what I'm not, I would end up as a hypocrite like so many other people who speak about love 'n stuff. I guess everybody must find his peace with the world in his own way.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 08:43:34 PM by Homesick Martian »

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squevil

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Re: Religion
« Reply #53 on: March 30, 2013, 08:45:57 PM »
you guys got them wrong. some things you cant just learn on the internet. having met them personally i know how they feel about matters and would take me on. its quite a relaxed religion. i like their ideas too. but mostly i like the foundation of the belief. for what i understand it to be anyway.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Religion
« Reply #54 on: April 01, 2013, 11:48:26 AM »
i know an american of european descent who has converted to sikhism.

i don't know of his standing among other Sikhs, but he's never mentioned any second-rate status.
The Sikh's are the people who introduced the caste system into India. They"grade" the worth of a person by their race and ethnicity, wealth and social standing. Christ for instance loved and tendered to the poor and he taught that those who follow him should do the same, although sadly few people who call themselves Christians follow the example he set. The Sikh's however regard the poor and desolate as "Untouchables". I find it difficult to square moral ethics and Sikh social segregation. In India you would never find a Sikh doing the kind of work Mother Theresa did!

Mother Theresa was an evil sadist who delighted in the suffering of the sick and the poor.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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OMEGA MAN

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Re: Religion
« Reply #55 on: April 01, 2013, 04:00:40 PM »
i know an american of european descent who has converted to sikhism.

i don't know of his standing among other Sikhs, but he's never mentioned any second-rate status.
The Sikh's are the people who introduced the caste system into India. They"grade" the worth of a person by their race and ethnicity, wealth and social standing. Christ for instance loved and tendered to the poor and he taught that those who follow him should do the same, although sadly few people who call themselves Christians follow the example he set. The Sikh's however regard the poor and desolate as "Untouchables". I find it difficult to square moral ethics and Sikh social segregation. In India you would never find a Sikh doing the kind of work Mother Theresa did!

Mother Theresa was an evil sadist who delighted in the suffering of the sick and the poor.

Quite a statement Space Cowgirl, but as always my mind is open to evidence. Can you post some of your evidence documenting these crimes or is it just a gut feeling or prejudice you have?

PS As a Presbyterian Protestant living in Northern Ireland I have no self interest in defending the Roman Catholic church.
BOLLOX.

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Genius

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Re: Religion
« Reply #56 on: April 01, 2013, 04:28:51 PM »

Quite a statement Space Cowgirl, but as always my mind is open to evidence. Can you post some of your evidence documenting these crimes or is it just a gut feeling or prejudice you have?

PS As a Presbyterian Protestant living in Northern Ireland I have no self interest in defending the Roman Catholic church.

ewww
The earth is round because the space man said so.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Religion
« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2013, 05:14:53 PM »
i know an american of european descent who has converted to sikhism.

i don't know of his standing among other Sikhs, but he's never mentioned any second-rate status.
The Sikh's are the people who introduced the caste system into India. They"grade" the worth of a person by their race and ethnicity, wealth and social standing. Christ for instance loved and tendered to the poor and he taught that those who follow him should do the same, although sadly few people who call themselves Christians follow the example he set. The Sikh's however regard the poor and desolate as "Untouchables". I find it difficult to square moral ethics and Sikh social segregation. In India you would never find a Sikh doing the kind of work Mother Theresa did!

Mother Theresa was an evil sadist who delighted in the suffering of the sick and the poor.

Quite a statement Space Cowgirl, but as always my mind is open to evidence. Can you post some of your evidence documenting these crimes or is it just a gut feeling or prejudice you have?

PS As a Presbyterian Protestant living in Northern Ireland I have no self interest in defending the Roman Catholic church.

Just Google Mother Teresa myth and read some of the articles. There's lots of shit mixed in, but basically at least half the money she raised didn't go towards tending the poor and sick at all, and the hospitals she did fund were disgusting and unsanitary. She even denied pain medicine to cancer patients because she believed their suffering was beautiful and brought them closer to Christ. I think she was insane.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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OMEGA MAN

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Re: Religion
« Reply #58 on: April 01, 2013, 05:17:39 PM »
@healthy earth

The Christian guy let the side down badly. He seems to be unaware of scripture and that Luke 19:27 was not as the Muslim said a commandment of Christ, but is in fact a single line from the parable of the "Ten Minas". It is not a commandment to kill non-Christians, it is in fact a metaphor for judgement day not to non-Christians but to those who call themselves Christians and fail to do what Gods son has asked!
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 05:21:13 PM by OMEGA MAN »
BOLLOX.

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OMEGA MAN

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Re: Religion
« Reply #59 on: April 01, 2013, 05:18:55 PM »
i know an american of european descent who has converted to sikhism.

i don't know of his standing among other Sikhs, but he's never mentioned any second-rate status.
The Sikh's are the people who introduced the caste system into India. They"grade" the worth of a person by their race and ethnicity, wealth and social standing. Christ for instance loved and tendered to the poor and he taught that those who follow him should do the same, although sadly few people who call themselves Christians follow the example he set. The Sikh's however regard the poor and desolate as "Untouchables". I find it difficult to square moral ethics and Sikh social segregation. In India you would never find a Sikh doing the kind of work Mother Theresa did!

Mother Theresa was an evil sadist who delighted in the suffering of the sick and the poor.

Quite a statement Space Cowgirl, but as always my mind is open to evidence. Can you post some of your evidence documenting these crimes or is it just a gut feeling or prejudice you have?

PS As a Presbyterian Protestant living in Northern Ireland I have no self interest in defending the Roman Catholic church.

Just Google Mother Teresa myth and read some of the articles. There's lots of shit mixed in, but basically at least half the money she raised didn't go towards tending the poor and sick at all, and the hospitals she did fund were disgusting and unsanitary. She even denied pain medicine to cancer patients because she believed their suffering was beautiful and brought them closer to Christ. I think she was insane.
I will read it Space Cowgirl ,thanks. :)
BOLLOX.