A little piece of history

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Homesick Martian

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A little piece of history
« on: March 08, 2013, 02:02:40 AM »
Don't know if anybody cares. Did some petty research in science history.

Around the middle of the first millenium BC astronomers had realized that earth is curved. Curved, not necessarily spherical.
The "astronomers", not the "Greeks"! And the main reason was the observation that the height of stars and of the sun altered with latitude, which otherwise could not be explained. Since Babylonia was still the center of astronomy then, not Greece, the curvedness of earth's surface was much likely a Babylonian ("Chaldaean") discovery. As late as 500 AD Cosmas Indicopleustes noted, that the Chaldaeans conceived earth as having the shape of a shield, that means a disc but with a bulge.

In the time of Plato and Aristotle this was the main model taught by natural philosophers like Anaxagoras and Democrit, while the progression to a spherical model was initially rather a philosophical, even mystical thing. The first who taught like that were the Pythagoreans, because they considered the sphere as the most perfect shape. For Plato earth was a sphere, but his conception was weird, because for him the material world was something like a valley in a huge sphere-shaped thing that constituted the real "ideal" world from which the world we conceive is just a shadow. It's understandable that more sober minds prefered to hold to the shield model. With the likes of Aristotle everything changed, he formed the spherical earth model into a scientific theory which explained phenomena at best. Later on all philosophical schools in Greece had earth as a sphere exept the Epicureans, the most materialistic school, who retained the shield model.

So FEs are right when they say, "Globularism" comes from philosophy, not from science. But they are only partial right, because the discovery of the curvedness of earth predates globularism and did not originate from speculation but from evidence.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 03:51:09 PM by Homesick Martian »

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markjo

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Re: A little piece of history
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2013, 10:52:24 AM »
So FEs are right when they say, "Globularism" comes from philosophy, not from science. But they are only partial right, because the discovery of the curvedness of earth predates globularism and did not originate from speculation but from evidence.

To be fair, back then science and (natural) philosophy were pretty much the same thing.
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Homesick Martian

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Re: A little piece of history
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2013, 03:24:59 PM »
So FEs are right when they say, "Globularism" comes from philosophy, not from science. But they are only partial right, because the discovery of the curvedness of earth predates globularism and did not originate from speculation but from evidence.

To be fair, back then science and (natural) philosophy were pretty much the same thing.

1. The Pythagoreans were more a kind of mystery religion than a school of natural philosophy, but my wording didn't imply that; well they can be regarded as having been both. Anyway, they may not be the originators of the idea of a spherical earth, although it's ascribed to them in later sources. For there was at least one Pythagorean, Philolaos, who had a flat earth revolving (!) not around the sun but around a speculated "central fire". Follows my statement could be wrong.

2.Also when I say that Epicureans retained a shield shaped model, my only evidence is Lucretius, a Roman philosopher of that school in the 1st c. BC.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 03:30:36 PM by Homesick Martian »

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Tausami

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Re: A little piece of history
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2013, 05:27:10 PM »
The Pythagoreans were more of a cult than anything. Those guys were weird. They murdered the person who discovered the existence of irrational numbers because he ruined the purity of mathematics, somehow. Also, shouldn't this be in FEG?

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Homesick Martian

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Re: A little piece of history
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2013, 10:12:08 AM »
The Pythagoreans were more of a cult than anything. Those guys were weird. They murdered the person who discovered the existence of irrational numbers because he ruined the purity of mathematics, somehow.

That's not quite correct, Tausami.  There were stories about a Pythagorean who was drawned at the sea as a punishment inflicted on him not by men but by the gods for reveiling some secrets of the community to the public, but not for discovering them. Note that since they were a mystery cult, doing so was conceived as a severe act of impiety (even by non-members of the cult). The secrets in question may or may not have included the irrational numbers thing.
Main ancient source of the story is Iamblychos (pagan philosopher, 6th century AD), Life of Pythagoras.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 01:25:22 PM by Homesick Martian »

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Homesick Martian

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Re: A little piece of history
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2013, 01:23:58 PM »
There is an article of a Dr. William Warren, published in the Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society, 1908 trying to reconstruct (Late) Babylonian cosmology. It's most interesting.
As presented by him, the shape of their earth model was essentially spherical and what I called a bulge on a shield shaped model is simply the northern hemisphere. Now consider a bulged flat earth that has also a bulge on the bottom side. If we progress to a spherical model this would then be the southern hemisphere. But the bottom side of earth was the home of the dead. And since they retained this conception, they consequently regarded the (completely unknown) southern hemisphere as the underworld, which can be reached even by the living crossing a vast body of water that seperates both realms.
The antichthones thus were the dead. This is a very ancient belief and is part of many early (flat) earth conceptions: the dead live underground with there feet upwards, up being down, since everything is reversed in the realm of the dead. Until the middle ages the concept of antichthones retained something sinister and was even banned by the church.

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Also, shouldn't this be in FEG?

Nah, let that be my little autistic corner thread.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 01:32:36 PM by Homesick Martian »

Re: A little piece of history
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2013, 03:22:54 PM »
Here is a section of the amazing book I've been promoting since my first day here (3 years ago)

http://35.9.68.172/courses/2008summer/isp213h/resources/downloads/assets/koestler_greeks.pdf
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Homesick Martian

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Re: A little piece of history
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2013, 05:18:43 PM »
Ok, it's well written, but, you know,  there was no Sargon of Akkad 3800 BC and from his real time there are no astronomical tablets extant I would know about, and...screw it. He just doesn't care. I mean for details. So when it comes to details you shouldn't trust him that much. He's a journalist.
You may hate me for that but I love details.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 05:24:17 PM by Homesick Martian »