Atheists and heliocentrists why there is no conspiracy for you and why?

People are still speaking about a "theory" of conspiracy.  It still remains a "theory" in public and not a fact.

Atheists or secular christians, why do you think theres no conspiracy and all people who talk about this are schizophrenic idiots? Do you believe your life is free and uncontrolable? Do you think that the whole system is built by honest people who want people to learn the truth about everything? Why it is strange for someone to believe the rich rulers of the system want uneducated slaves?

So no conspiracy?

Not on the scale that most people here seem to believe in.

It would simply not be possible to maintain a conspiracy of the required scale, for the required period of time (essentially for ever).  Compare it for example to the attempts of the tobacco industry, a powerful, monied, self interested group with excellent political connections and lobbying ability, to play down the harmful effects of tobacco.  That conspiracy involved far fewer people than the one which is commonly talked about on here, and was undone within a few decades.

The conspiracy is a necessity if the Earth is flat, but the Earth being flat was a deduction based on the landscape being shaped that way on a local scale. Every other flat Earth feature was moulded to fit in with the FET - it was not based on observations.

Now, since the conspiracy is solely based on such a heavily flawed theory that can't even begin to follow the Scientific Method without collapsing in on itself, and since a conspiracy of such magnitude cannot possibly be kept under wraps for so long, this is more than enough reason for me to have any doubt of its non-existence.

There is no evidence of a global conspiracy. And I also believe as the above poster mentioned that there are too many moving parts to the conspiracy to be be flawlessly maintained for decades.

Some of you are taking an active part in the conspiracy but you don't see it, because it's a well oiled conspiracy, meaning, most things are taken care of, now all you have to do, is follow the blueprint, which you do, unconditionally.
That's not to say you are playing a knowing active part in it all, you are just innocently going along with what you are fed and in no way can be blamed for going along with something that's firmly been embedded in your mind.
I was once like this, so I know how easy it is to be shackled by it. Luckily I managed to pick the lock on my shackles and can see things from a better angle.
It's like living your life watching a small camper van sized black and white portable TV with no play back option of a video or a stop and rewind on your TV itself. You take what you see and hear for what it is. The truth in your opinion and why would they lie?

It's only when you get a huge flat screen TV with colour and a rewind /pause option, that you see what you missed before, as you are now seeing the "wider" picture.
Naturally, you will never see it if you are not looking for it and they could put it on a cinema screen and people wouldn't see the bigger picture, because they refuse to even go there as it's not part of their own logic.

This doesn't mean that one is right and another is wrong, it just means that there is more than one angle to view things from.
Nobody can say a God does not exist and nobody can say that some intelligent form does not exist, even though logic may dictate that it doesn't, because you have to search your mind and try and reason as to why we are here in the first place and as to why we cannot fathom how big the universe is and how everything works.

Is it down to intelligent design or is it simply luck as to how everything appears to fit for us to survive.
Our bodies are basically a flesh and bone computerised robot, operated by electrical signals, so if our bodies get turned off, does our minds, or are we sent into stand by mode, or does the electrical impulses travel somewhere, like a matrix sort of thing.

I don't know the answer, I'm just saying that we cannot discount what we have no real clue about, as far fetched as it could well be.

I don't know the answer, I'm just saying that we cannot discount what we have no real clue about, as far fetched as it could well be.

I agree

Some of you are taking an active part in the conspiracy but you don't see it, because it's a well oiled conspiracy, meaning, most things are taken care of, now all you have to do, is follow the blueprint, which you do, unconditionally.

What's my part in the comspiracy?

You are right about one thing. The system is not entirely run by honest people. And to a certain extent we are all slaves to this corrupt system. But there is no conspiracy actualy its all very much out in the open.
But you wont hear many people complain about it. Because for the most part people here in the western world aren't too badly off. We are all well fed, wealthy and for the most part free to do what ever we like.
But if you don't like it you can always go live in the woods like a hermit and you can be free of all this corruption.

This doesn't mean that one is right and another is wrong, it just means that there is more than one angle to view things from.

Unfortunately in science there can be wrong answers.  While scientific progress can be thought of as a series increasingly improving approximations to the truth, most of what is discussed on here is of the kind of level where it can be thought of, for all the present intents and purposes, as the truth.  That does not mean that something can't come and upset the apple cart,  but it does mean that it would have to be something that could survive a rigorous critical analysis.  I have yet to see an argument here that is capable of that.

It is one thing to accommodate the world views of other people; I certainly agree that absolutism is abhorrent.  When, however, one seeks to assert facts that are capable of objective verification then that objective verification cannot be replaced simply with belief and it is ludicrous to suggest that it can.

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 21, 2013, 06:50:16 AM

Some of you are taking an active part in the conspiracy but you don't see it, because it's a well oiled conspiracy, meaning, most things are taken care of, now all you have to do, is follow the blueprint, which you do, unconditionally.

What's my part in the comspiracy?

You aren't, directly. Indirectly, you are aiding it by following it, even though in your own mind it's not a conspiracy, so basically, you are just innocently fighting the corner that you accept the most, which is fine.
I believe the opposite but I have no intention of walking around with a banner with"it's a conspiracy" written on it. It's just my personal thoughts based on years of looking into stuff.

Scepti,

I take the point about not everyone who perpetuates a conspiracy needing to know the full details in order to perpetuate it, but as you climb the pyramid there must be some people who know that they are peddling falsehoods yet continue to do so.

Given the scale of the conspiracy that we are talking about, and the fact that it is global (or planar, given that these are the Flat Earth Boards) how may of those knowing wrongdoers do you reckon there should be?

You are right about one thing. The system is not entirely run by honest people. And to a certain extent we are all slaves to this corrupt system. But there is no conspiracy actualy its all very much out in the open.
But you wont hear many people complain about it. Because for the most part people here in the western world aren't too badly off. We are all well fed, wealthy and for the most part free to do what ever we like.
But if you don't like it you can always go live in the woods like a hermit and you can be free of all this corruption.

Just because I think we are being lied to, doesn't mean I want to play the freedom fighter. I've paid my way in this life like most have,which entitles me to what I have.
No matter where I live on this earth, I will never be free of corruption as it's everywhere. The friend you have beside you that you've known all your life and trusted can turn against you over material things, it's just a matter of the size, as in, for the sake of it, a big money win.

Sometimes it's just easier to trust, as it is much less hassle and if you are lucky, that trust can be a lifetimes worth, as there are some people out there that are much stronger and selfless but they are in a minority in the grand scheme of things.
Most people are basically honest..but as I've said, honesty depends on being able to avoid the temptation to lie at any cost.
I think Thork said on here: If he was asked at a job interview, why he wanted to be a part of the company..even though he didn't agree with their ethics, he would tell them a pack of lies and big the place up, just as I would if I needed a job and so would 99% of others.

It's still lying but there's a legitimate purpose for it, which is self preservation of your well being in life.
It's like hanging off a cliff with your best friend under your feet attached to you. You have a knife and know you are losing your grip, which means you both fall to your deaths. What do you choose to do?
Chances are, you will cut loose and live with the pain in memory. The point is, it's a case of self preservation.

I'm babbling on here...but what I'm trying to make clear is, there's people that lie for need and there's people that lie for greed and there's people that lie because of their need for greed, which is where your big bucks space programs come in.
Just my opinion, that's all.

Quote from: mathsman on March 21, 2013, 07:02:51 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 21, 2013, 06:50:16 AM

Some of you are taking an active part in the conspiracy but you don't see it, because it's a well oiled conspiracy, meaning, most things are taken care of, now all you have to do, is follow the blueprint, which you do, unconditionally.

What's my part in the comspiracy?

You aren't, directly. Indirectly, you are aiding it by following it, even though in your own mind it's not a conspiracy, so basically, you are just innocently fighting the corner that you accept the most, which is fine.
I believe the opposite but I have no intention of walking around with a banner with"it's a conspiracy" written on it. It's just my personal thoughts based on years of looking into stuff.

I was just going to ask: 'What, exactly, am I following?' However, I'll ask another question.
If I changed my way of looking at the world in what way would my life improve? My life's fairly tickety-boo at the moment.

Scepti,

I take the point about not everyone who perpetuates a conspiracy needing to know the full details in order to perpetuate it, but as you climb the pyramid there must be some people who know that they are peddling falsehoods yet continue to do so.

Given the scale of the conspiracy that we are talking about, and the fact that it is global (or planar, given that these are the Flat Earth Boards) how may of those knowing wrongdoers do you reckon there should be?

I wish I knew the answer but I don't and I can only go my my own thoughts. To get to the bottom of something like this, I think it would take a person a few lifetimes of study and piecing together.

The best way I can describe it, in simple terms is to view it like this , yet thinking of what can be had from the domino effect of it.
Let's use you as an example:
You decide that you want to make money but in all your honest endeavours, all you ever do is make small change, so you decide to concoct a clever lie and use some of your work/uni/college/school pals as accomplices with the intention of sharing big bucks if the ruse holds tight.

Now it's about how to make the lie fit, so you use your friends as stooges whilst starting a school savings scheme that guarantees people 25% on their savings over the year.
Now that's a tempter but the biggest clincher is when you walk up to a stooge and he says, "hey doubter, how much do I have on my £300 I've put in" and you, knowing there's people all around you, taking an interest, you tell him that he now has £375 in his account, so he asks to draw out the £75, which you willingly give him.
People see this and they see potential. It builds up and builds up until you have such a massive influx of money, you start to build your own empire, knowing that most people are comfortable in the knowledge that their money is building up and up, yet in reality, you don't have it as it's tied up in building your empire  and a rush on your bank/pockets would cripple you, yet you know that human habit for saving, will not see that happen and only a small proportion will collect, yet in all this time,"in print" their bank balances are going up, in "print" only, meaning the money is fictional at this point, yet very real in their heads.

It starts and ends at the banks, yet the mass amount of money is simply types figures and bears no resemblance to real money
Most people are being paid from work, these day by a pay slip that says they have earned this amount and they will go shopping and stick their plastic card and number into a machine and walk out with the goods.
They could have 10 million in the bank but their pockets are empty, so what they have in the bank are numbers on a computer.
Of course you can go to the cash point and get hard cash, or go into the bank and draw out a large amount and it's catered for, just as a family wedding will cater the food for 100 people when 200 will turn up. They know that the food will be eaten and possibly some will miss out on a certain tit bit but it works because all people aren't ravenous munchers, just as all people aren't bank raiders and some like to save, save , save and the banks are happy to keep it and make their empire even bigger, on your money, then penalise you if you ever become low on funds, regardless if you have kept money in there for decades until you fell on hard times.

There's a saying that I like and I can't remember where it came from, maybe Mark Twain.
"give a man a gun and he can rob a bank...give a man a bank and he can rob the world."
I think that about sums it all up.

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 21, 2013, 07:16:26 AM

Quote from: mathsman on March 21, 2013, 07:02:51 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 21, 2013, 06:50:16 AM

Some of you are taking an active part in the conspiracy but you don't see it, because it's a well oiled conspiracy, meaning, most things are taken care of, now all you have to do, is follow the blueprint, which you do, unconditionally.

What's my part in the comspiracy?

You aren't, directly. Indirectly, you are aiding it by following it, even though in your own mind it's not a conspiracy, so basically, you are just innocently fighting the corner that you accept the most, which is fine.
I believe the opposite but I have no intention of walking around with a banner with"it's a conspiracy" written on it. It's just my personal thoughts based on years of looking into stuff.

I was just going to ask: 'What, exactly, am I following?' However, I'll ask another question.
If I changed my way of looking at the world in what way would my life improve? My life's fairly tickety-boo at the moment.

Your life will improve, not by changing your way of thinking, as that implies you are changing it for no real reason.
Look more critical at what you believe and have believed is the truth and if you find that it's possible that your life has been spent accepting lies, then at least it will make you view things a bit more clearly. If you go spouting your mouth off to people then your life will change for the worse as they will put you in the tin foil hat category.
"Thinking it" and keeping it to yourself whilst nodding at those who go maybe innocently with the lies, at least keeps you in the masses as someone who's sane.

I don't think this will change your life but it will maybe make you see greed and money are a massive evil and that eventually whether you accept what your told or not, the greedy money people at the top will have us all where they want us and that's on our knees, which if you take a look around you, is happening right now at speed but has been happening for a long time.

You cannot implement all this in a short space of time, it has to be carefully done and it relies of the willingness of the wider public to accept what is dished out, which means, lower paid jobs, gun control for Americans, all your money swallowed up by rising bills and taxes for the benefit of your comfort and safety.

It would take me a thousand books to even write 10% of what I believe is going on.
Does that make me a nutter? maybe so, I could be spouting off gibberish as far as many people are concerned but they know in their heart of hearts that all is not right in this world and never has been, it's just that society is brought up with each generation to be brainwashed about the past and believe they are living in a safer, more comfortable world, whilst being systematically robbed of their money and, slowly, their rights.
A school isn't wicked because 1% of it is bullies and racketeers, just the same as the world isn't wicked because of that 1%..but that  1% can do what no one else can and that's make people march to their tune and force people to fight against one another and make the meeker be thankful for it.

When you have a few hours of pure boredom, use it to take a look around you. Go and check bills from a few years ago, to present day, go and check the prices of food from a few years ago, to present day..check your monthly outgoing from a few years ago, to present day.
Go and look at the cameras tracking your every movement and the cameras just waiting for you to push that gas peddle just a few mph over the limit.
Look at everything around you and how everything is privatised and how your beloved firms you once worked for, or still do are now shoving you over to the private agencies, who now pay you.

When you have done all of that, ask yourself why this is all happening and who gains. I'll give you a starting clue. "It will never, ever be you" unless you are rich, anyway and if you are, then good luck but remember, the rich can become poor and unless you have that richness around you in gold or cash, then you are simply digitally rich in figures.

I have to go now so I'll respond tomorrow.

That's not an uncommon world view, and there's a grain of truth in it.

The thing that I don't understand is how the social view translates into the views you express about science.  From where I'm sitting it I do get the sense that you feel there really is nothing in the world that can be relied on; that's quite an upsetting thought.

That's not an uncommon world view, and there's a grain of truth in it.

The thing that I don't understand is how the social view translates into the views you express about science.  From where I'm sitting it I do get the sense that you feel there really is nothing in the world that can be relied on; that's quite an upsetting thought.

That's not the case at all. It appears to be the case on here, I'll admit that..but only because I'm bringing up stuff that I personally believe to be a fabrication and not necessarily all of it is a lie, just maybe half truths in many things, as in nuclear power.
I can't steadfastly say it's not something like what they say it is and maybe they are giving us unlimited power but not in how we think and are using the poisonous Uranium/plutonium ruse to con us into thinking that it's so costly to keep it safe and so, we accept our bills are high because of this.

I might come across as professing to know it all but I don't know anything for certain, yet I can look at it more critically rather than just accepting it, especially when things are going up in price when technology should be aiding us.
It looks like we are being slowly dragged into communism here but for anyone to see it, you have to look at the wider picture and stand back to get the full view of it.

That's just my own personal view and if nobody shares it, then fine, as each person has their own take on life.
I might type what I think but I don't sit in the pub spouting any of it off, because most people are oblivious to what's going on in their own home, never mind in the world.

Can I ask what kind of evidence it would take to convince you of something you currently do not believe or have doubts about?

I don't think it would be productive to pick a topic so that we can examine the evidence for it (that has been done to death in other threads); I am more interested in the nature of the evidence you would need.

For example, do you need to experience something directly?  Would it be acceptable to speak to someone who has experienced the subject matter directly?  For things that cannot be experienced directly (for example radiation - you might see the effect of it but you would not be able to see fission itself) will you be forever in doubt, or is there any kind of logical reasoning that would be acceptable to you that would allow you to infer that the thing which cannot be experienced is real?

I would be interested to know

Can I ask what kind of evidence it would take to convince you of something you currently do not believe or have doubts about?

I don't think it would be productive to pick a topic so that we can examine the evidence for it (that has been done to death in other threads); I am more interested in the nature of the evidence you would need.

For example, do you need to experience something directly?  Would it be acceptable to speak to someone who has experienced the subject matter directly?  For things that cannot be experienced directly (for example radiation - you might see the effect of it but you would not be able to see fission itself) will you be forever in doubt, or is there any kind of logical reasoning that would be acceptable to you that would allow you to infer that the thing which cannot be experienced is real?

I would be interested to know

That's a good question.

If I could talk to someone directly who claims to know for sure. Let's just say, for instance, an Astronaut who's been to the space station and I could sit directly in front of him and ask him question after question for an hour and his body language checked out, it would go a long way into pushing me towards acceptance of it.
I don't expect to see that, any time soon though.
Things like that.

Ok, that makes sense.

I assume that means for things which can be experienced by people but which you have not personally experienced, you are prepared to take the evidence of others if you have control of the questions (which means that you prevent an evasion by chasing them down whichever route is necessary to get to the truth).

You didn't answer my question about things that cannot be directly experienced.  Will you have a permanent doubt about those, and if not what kind of evidence would you need?

As a follow up question from the one you answered; given that many people have the same questions you do, and it is not practical for all of them to have the chance to personally question someone who has experienced something they doubt, is there anything else that is acceptable instead of a face to face interview?  If so, what would it be?  If not, then of course the conversation ends there because there is nothing that I, or anyone else, can do to satisfy you unless we can present a witness to each and every thing that you have doubts about.

Ok, that makes sense.

I assume that means for things which can be experienced by people but which you have not personally experienced, you are prepared to take the evidence of others if you have control of the questions (which means that you prevent an evasion by chasing them down whichever route is necessary to get to the truth).

Quote

About sums it up.

You didn't answer my question about things that cannot be directly experienced.  Will you have a permanent doubt about those, and if not what kind of evidence would you need?

Quote

I'll probably always doubt it, until something crystal clear came from it, which I'm not quite sure what.

As a follow up question from the one you answered; given that many people have the same questions you do, and it is not practical for all of them to have the chance to personally question someone who has experienced something they doubt, is there anything else that is acceptable instead of a face to face interview?  If so, what would it be?  If not, then of course the conversation ends there because there is nothing that I, or anyone else, can do to satisfy you unless we can present a witness to each and every thing that you have doubts about.

As for your last question, I would say that Being able to find ways to stump me, in terms of answering, as in me trying to answer something that even to me starts to become illogical. If that happens, I can then maybe see other arguments I might have misdirected myself on. As of yet, I don't feel anyone has done that and those that try the hardest, usually try to resort to ridicule, which makes me stronger and them frustrated.

What do you think it would take to stump you? 

Simple statements of belief will not do the trick (or if they did then you would be an idiot!), so what would it take?  I am trying to find out what kind of logic convinces you - I am hoping that once I know that we can establish enough common ground to really get into the meat of things.

What do you think it would take to stump you? 

Simple statements of belief will not do the trick (or if they did then you would be an idiot!), so what would it take?  I am trying to find out what kind of logic convinces you - I am hoping that once I know that we can establish enough common ground to really get into the meat of things.

Ok, I'll give you a snippet where logic is not used, yet it appears to be an answer that people have to adhere to or be called stupid.

9/11, the twin towers both collapsed in about 10 seconds, as we seen on the TV, regardless of the footage being manipulated.
Building 7, fell in about 7 seconds.
This is free fall speed. That is a defiance of physics and logic as it means all steel framed buildings encounter no resistance whatsoever.

So basically you can see how I can't go along with stuff like this right?

Who called that statement illogical?

Who called that statement illogical?

Nobody, I'm using it as an example as to how people who believe there's no 9/11 conspiracy actually decide that the laws of physics got suspended on that day and are happy to go along with that. I never mentioned anyone on here, I was giving an example.

Quote from: A Doubter on March 21, 2013, 12:21:22 PM

What do you think it would take to stump you? 

Simple statements of belief will not do the trick (or if they did then you would be an idiot!), so what would it take?  I am trying to find out what kind of logic convinces you - I am hoping that once I know that we can establish enough common ground to really get into the meat of things.

Ok, I'll give you a snippet where logic is not used, yet it appears to be an answer that people have to adhere to or be called stupid.

9/11, the twin towers both collapsed in about 10 seconds, as we seen on the TV, regardless of the footage being manipulated.
Building 7, fell in about 7 seconds.
This is free fall speed. That is a defiance of physics and logic as it means all steel framed buildings encounter no resistance whatsoever.

So basically you can see how I can't go along with stuff like this right?

The idea that building 7 fell at "free fall" speed is based on inaccurate data being pushed by a group of people who have an overwhelming desire to feel special.. to feel that they are in on a big secret that most of the world's population is not smart enough to figure out. Such claims actually display that the individual yearns for simplistic answers in a complicated world.

The answer to how fast the building collapsed is difficult to know. It involves math.

http://www.debunking911.com/freefall.htm

Likewise, claiming the earth is flat is a simple answer to put forth. Actually understanding how the universe works can be mind numbingly complex. The shape of the Earth can be confirmed by anyone that wants to put the effort into actually learning about physics and doing actual observation. The shadow of the earth on the moon during a lunar eclipse reveals the shape of the earth. The "movement" of the sky reveals the path of the earth around the sun. These are observations that were made by other humans a long time ago. But observation that risks confirming the most widely held belief is not something flat earthers have any real interest in. Believing what most of humanity believes might make them feel ordinary. This is a group of people that are willing to put in the effort to run a website and forum and argue about the answer, but not willing to buy a telescope and actually go look for the answer. (This, of course, does not apply to the posters on here who claim to be flat earthers but only do so as a source of personal amusement.)
 

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 21, 2013, 12:34:57 PM

Quote from: A Doubter on March 21, 2013, 12:21:22 PM

What do you think it would take to stump you? 

Simple statements of belief will not do the trick (or if they did then you would be an idiot!), so what would it take?  I am trying to find out what kind of logic convinces you - I am hoping that once I know that we can establish enough common ground to really get into the meat of things.

Ok, I'll give you a snippet where logic is not used, yet it appears to be an answer that people have to adhere to or be called stupid.

9/11, the twin towers both collapsed in about 10 seconds, as we seen on the TV, regardless of the footage being manipulated.
Building 7, fell in about 7 seconds.
This is free fall speed. That is a defiance of physics and logic as it means all steel framed buildings encounter no resistance whatsoever.

So basically you can see how I can't go along with stuff like this right?

The idea that building 7 fell at "free fall" speed is based on inaccurate data being pushed by a group of people who have an overwhelming desire to feel special.. to feel that they are in on a big secret that most of the world's population is not smart enough to figure out. Such claims actually display that the individual yearns for simplistic answers in a complicated world.

The answer to how fast the building collapsed is difficult to know. It involves math.

http://www.debunking911.com/freefall.htm

Likewise, claiming the earth is flat is a simple answer to put forth. Actually understanding how the universe works can be mind numbingly complex. The shape of the Earth can be confirmed by anyone that wants to put the effort into actually learning about physics and doing actual observation. The shadow of the earth on the moon during a lunar eclipse reveals the shape of the earth. The "movement" of the sky reveals the path of the earth around the sun. These are observations that were made by other humans a long time ago. But observation that risks confirming the most widely held belief is not something flat earthers have any real interest in. Believing what most of humanity believes might make them feel ordinary. This is a group of people that are willing to put in the effort to run a website and forum and argue about the answer, but not willing to buy a telescope and actually go look for the answer. (This, of course, does not apply to the posters on here who claim to be flat earthers but only do so as a source of personal amusement.)

Oh, well that's that then. I wish you had bloody come on here a few months ago, you could have saved me a lot of typing.
Well, at least I know it all now and how wrong I've been. 

Quote from: Blackclaw on March 21, 2013, 01:11:47 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 21, 2013, 12:34:57 PM

Quote from: A Doubter on March 21, 2013, 12:21:22 PM

What do you think it would take to stump you? 

Simple statements of belief will not do the trick (or if they did then you would be an idiot!), so what would it take?  I am trying to find out what kind of logic convinces you - I am hoping that once I know that we can establish enough common ground to really get into the meat of things.

Ok, I'll give you a snippet where logic is not used, yet it appears to be an answer that people have to adhere to or be called stupid.

9/11, the twin towers both collapsed in about 10 seconds, as we seen on the TV, regardless of the footage being manipulated.
Building 7, fell in about 7 seconds.
This is free fall speed. That is a defiance of physics and logic as it means all steel framed buildings encounter no resistance whatsoever.

So basically you can see how I can't go along with stuff like this right?

The idea that building 7 fell at "free fall" speed is based on inaccurate data being pushed by a group of people who have an overwhelming desire to feel special.. to feel that they are in on a big secret that most of the world's population is not smart enough to figure out. Such claims actually display that the individual yearns for simplistic answers in a complicated world.

The answer to how fast the building collapsed is difficult to know. It involves math.

http://www.debunking911.com/freefall.htm

Likewise, claiming the earth is flat is a simple answer to put forth. Actually understanding how the universe works can be mind numbingly complex. The shape of the Earth can be confirmed by anyone that wants to put the effort into actually learning about physics and doing actual observation. The shadow of the earth on the moon during a lunar eclipse reveals the shape of the earth. The "movement" of the sky reveals the path of the earth around the sun. These are observations that were made by other humans a long time ago. But observation that risks confirming the most widely held belief is not something flat earthers have any real interest in. Believing what most of humanity believes might make them feel ordinary. This is a group of people that are willing to put in the effort to run a website and forum and argue about the answer, but not willing to buy a telescope and actually go look for the answer. (This, of course, does not apply to the posters on here who claim to be flat earthers but only do so as a source of personal amusement.)

Oh, well that's that then. I wish you had bloody come on here a few months ago, you could have saved me a lot of typing.
Well, at least I know it all now and how wrong I've been. 

too many maths on that page. Lol, calc final soon, not even going to try to understand.

Quote from: sceptimatic on March 21, 2013, 12:34:57 PM

Quote from: A Doubter on March 21, 2013, 12:21:22 PM

What do you think it would take to stump you? 

Simple statements of belief will not do the trick (or if they did then you would be an idiot!), so what would it take?  I am trying to find out what kind of logic convinces you - I am hoping that once I know that we can establish enough common ground to really get into the meat of things.

Ok, I'll give you a snippet where logic is not used, yet it appears to be an answer that people have to adhere to or be called stupid.

9/11, the twin towers both collapsed in about 10 seconds, as we seen on the TV, regardless of the footage being manipulated.
Building 7, fell in about 7 seconds.
This is free fall speed. That is a defiance of physics and logic as it means all steel framed buildings encounter no resistance whatsoever.

So basically you can see how I can't go along with stuff like this right?

The idea that building 7 fell at "free fall" speed is based on inaccurate data being pushed by a group of people who have an overwhelming desire to feel special.. to feel that they are in on a big secret that most of the world's population is not smart enough to figure out. Such claims actually display that the individual yearns for simplistic answers in a complicated world.

The answer to how fast the building collapsed is difficult to know. It involves math.

http://www.debunking911.com/freefall.htm

Likewise, claiming the earth is flat is a simple answer to put forth. Actually understanding how the universe works can be mind numbingly complex. The shape of the Earth can be confirmed by anyone that wants to put the effort into actually learning about physics and doing actual observation. The shadow of the earth on the moon during a lunar eclipse reveals the shape of the earth. The "movement" of the sky reveals the path of the earth around the sun. These are observations that were made by other humans a long time ago. But observation that risks confirming the most widely held belief is not something flat earthers have any real interest in. Believing what most of humanity believes might make them feel ordinary. This is a group of people that are willing to put in the effort to run a website and forum and argue about the answer, but not willing to buy a telescope and actually go look for the answer. (This, of course, does not apply to the posters on here who claim to be flat earthers but only do so as a source of personal amusement.)

As someone that believed the WTC towers fell at free-fall speeds, I find this page to be very informative.  Is there a broader resource that you can point to for this sort of information?  I would like to see an explanation for the conditions that created temperatures high enough to melt steel, and still be 1500F a couple of weeks after the collapse.