I told my Physics teacher about the Flat Earth Society...

There's a great quote from FE Smith, an English barrister.

The judge was upset by the length of a speech FE Smith was giving, and said "Mr Smith, I have listened to your entire argument, and I am none the wiser".

FE Smith replied "no, my Lord, but you are certainly better informed".

Excellent.

Quote from: muggsybogues1 on March 28, 2013, 02:22:47 PM

Quote from: mathsman on March 28, 2013, 01:19:45 PM

Quote from: muggsybogues1 on March 28, 2013, 07:18:53 AM

"The beginning of wisdom is a question."

The beginning of knowledge is the answer.

The beginning of knowledge is not an assumption.

Wisdom is overrated it's not in any way as useful as knowledge.

I would argue that it is wisdom that made us decide dropping more atom bombs than just the two on live targets was a bad idea.  That was pretty useful.

Knowledge is useless without wisdom, indeed.

Quote from: mathsman on April 03, 2013, 07:35:02 AM

Quote from: muggsybogues1 on March 28, 2013, 02:22:47 PM

Quote from: mathsman on March 28, 2013, 01:19:45 PM

Quote from: muggsybogues1 on March 28, 2013, 07:18:53 AM

"The beginning of wisdom is a question."

The beginning of knowledge is the answer.

The beginning of knowledge is not an assumption.

Wisdom is overrated it's not in any way as useful as knowledge.

I would argue that it is wisdom that made us decide dropping more atom bombs than just the two on live targets was a bad idea.  That was pretty useful.

I'd argue that they're equally important. Wisdom needs knowledge as fuel.

Definitely

Knowledge is useless without wisdom, indeed.

Does a mechanic need wisdom to fix a car? I would say they need technical knowledge. Does a doctor need wisdom to cure a patient? If the patient were me I would rather the surgeon have tremendous medical knowledge.

Quote from: John Davis on April 03, 2013, 11:26:48 AM

Knowledge is useless without wisdom, indeed.

Does a mechanic need wisdom to fix a car? I would say they need technical knowledge. Does a doctor need wisdom to cure a patient? If the patient were me I would rather the surgeon have tremendous medical knowledge.

Ah, but wisdom is the application of knowledge. Without wisdom, the only thing knowledge is good for is teaching. The hypothetical surgeon may know everything there is to know about the human body, but applying that knowledge during surgery takes wisdom.

Quote from: John Davis on April 03, 2013, 11:26:48 AM

Knowledge is useless without wisdom, indeed.

Does a mechanic need wisdom to fix a car? I would say they need technical knowledge. Does a doctor need wisdom to cure a patient? If the patient were me I would rather the surgeon have tremendous medical knowledge.

Knowledge is a mechanic knowing how to rebuild a transmission on a vehicle.  Wisdom is when the mechanic does not bother with the transmission when the car will not crank.  I would think that wisdom is more important.

Knowledge is a mechanic knowing how to rebuild a transmission on a vehicle.  Wisdom is when the mechanic does not bother with the transmission when the car will not crank.  I would think that wisdom is more important.

I would say that both of your examples are knowledge. The mechanic may know from experience (another form of knowledge) not to bother with the transmission. When I see somebody doing something practical in a competent manner I think of them as knowledgable in that area; at no point do I regard this as wisdom. I have no wisdom whatsoever just little bits of knowledge picked up along the way.

Quote from: jroa on April 03, 2013, 12:45:19 PM

Knowledge is a mechanic knowing how to rebuild a transmission on a vehicle.  Wisdom is when the mechanic does not bother with the transmission when the car will not crank.  I would think that wisdom is more important.

I would say that both of your examples are knowledge. The mechanic may know from experience (another form of knowledge) not to bother with the transmission. When I see somebody doing something practical in a competent manner I think of them as knowledgable in that area; at no point do I regard this as wisdom. I have no wisdom whatsoever just little bits of knowledge picked up along the way.

How do you define wisdom?

Quote from: jroa on April 03, 2013, 12:45:19 PM

Knowledge is a mechanic knowing how to rebuild a transmission on a vehicle.  Wisdom is when the mechanic does not bother with the transmission when the car will not crank.  I would think that wisdom is more important.

I would say that both of your examples are knowledge. The mechanic may know from experience (another form of knowledge)...

Umm, no.  Knowing something from experience is precisely what wisdom is.

Umm, no.  Knowing something from experience is precisely what wisdom is.

And yet we have that word 'knowing' which implies knowledge.

From the Australian Oxford Dictionary
knowledge: 1a. awareness or familiarity gained by experience; b. a person's range of information
wisdom: 2. experience and knowledge together with the power of applying them critically or practically

Works for me!

Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist on April 03, 2013, 06:42:39 PM

Umm, no.  Knowing something from experience is precisely what wisdom is.

And yet we have that word 'knowing' which implies knowledge.

Mathsman-In case you missed it. I asked what your definition of wisdom is.

Quote from: Rama Set on April 03, 2013, 08:19:09 AM

Quote from: mathsman on April 03, 2013, 07:35:02 AM

Quote from: muggsybogues1 on March 28, 2013, 02:22:47 PM

Quote from: mathsman on March 28, 2013, 01:19:45 PM

Quote from: muggsybogues1 on March 28, 2013, 07:18:53 AM

"The beginning of wisdom is a question."

The beginning of knowledge is the answer.

The beginning of knowledge is not an assumption.

Wisdom is overrated it's not in any way as useful as knowledge.

I would argue that it is wisdom that made us decide dropping more atom bombs than just the two on live targets was a bad idea.  That was pretty useful.

I'd argue that they're equally important. Wisdom needs knowledge as fuel.

Depends on your aims. 

The sage will find knowledge useless temporary trappings.   If you aim to act, knowledge can be useful. One can have sufficient knowledge and wisdom and still have no will to act.  The fuel of man is passion, and the sage always|never requires it. 

 Wisdom if anything creates knowledge.  All knowledge you can gain from sources is already known.  New|Old "knowledge" is created | discovered through application, observation and, unless forced, nonaction.   

Mathsman-In case you missed it. I asked what your definition of wisdom is.

Sorry, I did miss it. I'm not sure what my definition of wisdom is. I think wisdom is too nebulous to appeal to me. Knowledge is testable and practical be it knowing how to write a sonnet, play a drop shot in tennis, solve an equation or decorate a house. Wisdom appeals to those who like to pretend they have a deeper understanding of things than the rest of us. You know the kind of bullshit they chant: 'You must be as wise as a tree and as innocent as a stream to achieve your ultimate goal.'

Quote from: Rama Set on April 04, 2013, 05:21:15 AM

Mathsman-In case you missed it. I asked what your definition of wisdom is.

Sorry, I did miss it. I'm not sure what my definition of wisdom is. I think wisdom is too nebulous to appeal to me. Knowledge is testable and practical be it knowing how to write a sonnet, play a drop shot in tennis, solve an equation or decorate a house. Wisdom appeals to those who like to pretend they have a deeper understanding of things than the rest of us. You know the kind of bullshit they chant: 'You must be as wise as a tree and as innocent as a stream to achieve your ultimate goal.'

Interesting-Do feelings appeal to you?  I ask because they can also be very nebulous, confusing, impossible to test or pin down and they are an essential part of the human experience.

Interesting-Do feelings appeal to you?  I ask because they can also be very nebulous, confusing, impossible to test or pin down and they are an essential part of the human experience.

Feelings do appeal to me. They don't carry with them the pseudo-intellectual baggage of wisdom. But even feelings are very little without visible demonstrations of their existence.

Quote from: Rama Set on April 04, 2013, 08:24:51 AM

Interesting-Do feelings appeal to you?  I ask because they can also be very nebulous, confusing, impossible to test or pin down and they are an essential part of the human experience.

Feelings do appeal to me. They don't carry with them the pseudo-intellectual baggage of wisdom. But even feelings are very little without visible demonstrations of their existence.

Visible demonstrations?  What visible demonstration do you have when you feel something?

I would like to know your answer but I will also cut to the chase:

If you are only interested in a scientific, objective, observable world, then I agree whole-heartedly with all you are saying.  If you want to explore the spiritual realm, the nature of consciousness, feeling, and the sublime, knowledge can fail you.

Quote from: mathsman on April 04, 2013, 08:50:31 AM

Quote from: Rama Set on April 04, 2013, 08:24:51 AM

Interesting-Do feelings appeal to you?  I ask because they can also be very nebulous, confusing, impossible to test or pin down and they are an essential part of the human experience.

Feelings do appeal to me. They don't carry with them the pseudo-intellectual baggage of wisdom. But even feelings are very little without visible demonstrations of their existence.

Visible demonstrations?  What visible demonstration do you have when you feel something?

I would like to know your answer but I will also cut to the chase:

If you are only interested in a scientific, objective, observable world, then I agree whole-heartedly with all you are saying.  If you want to explore the spiritual realm, the nature of consciousness, feeling, and the sublime, knowledge can fail you.

If somebody claims to love me and then punches me I determine that they don't love me. If somebody claims to love me and then visits me in hospital I determine that they love me. Feelings are pretty empty without the accompanying actions, they are just redundant words.

I write this on the day that three people were sentenced for the manslaughter of six children in an act of arson. Two of these killers were the children's parents. They appeared in press conferences weeping and bewailing the deaths of their children. Did they love them?

Where is this spiritual realm? Do you need a passport to visit it? Are you telling me that the knowledge of how a rainbow is made diminishes its beauty? Are you seriously telling me you love your loved ones more than I love mine? You find music more musical? Poetry more poetic?

When I listen to the choral finale of Mahler's Resurrection symphony I get goose bumps. I recently visited the Electric Mountain power station and was gobsmacked at what we humans can achieve when we put our minds to it. Exhilirating and humbling at the same time.

The true nature of human consciousness will be uncovered, if it is at all possible, by scientists not by priests, shamen and other woo-woo bullshit merchants.

Quote from: Rama Set on April 04, 2013, 08:54:08 AM

Quote from: mathsman on April 04, 2013, 08:50:31 AM

Quote from: Rama Set on April 04, 2013, 08:24:51 AM

Interesting-Do feelings appeal to you?  I ask because they can also be very nebulous, confusing, impossible to test or pin down and they are an essential part of the human experience.

Feelings do appeal to me. They don't carry with them the pseudo-intellectual baggage of wisdom. But even feelings are very little without visible demonstrations of their existence.

Visible demonstrations?  What visible demonstration do you have when you feel something?

I would like to know your answer but I will also cut to the chase:

If you are only interested in a scientific, objective, observable world, then I agree whole-heartedly with all you are saying.  If you want to explore the spiritual realm, the nature of consciousness, feeling, and the sublime, knowledge can fail you.

If somebody claims to love me and then punches me I determine that they don't love me. If somebody claims to love me and then visits me in hospital I determine that they love me. Feelings are pretty empty without the accompanying actions, they are just redundant words.

I write this on the day that three people were sentenced for the manslaughter of six children in an act of arson. Two of these killers were the children's parents. They appeared in press conferences weeping and bewailing the deaths of their children. Did they love them?

Where is this spiritual realm? Do you need a passport to visit it? Are you telling me that the knowledge of how a rainbow is made diminishes its beauty? Are you seriously telling me you love your loved ones more than I love mine? You find music more musical? Poetry more poetic?

When I listen to the choral finale of Mahler's Resurrection symphony I get goose bumps. I recently visited the Electric Mountain power station and was gobsmacked at what we humans can achieve when we put our minds to it. Exhilirating and humbling at the same time.

The true nature of human consciousness will be uncovered, if it is at all possible, by scientists not by priests, shamen and other woo-woo bullshit merchants.

I am in no way trying to diminish or aggrandize any persons feelings, I am not trying to claim that intellectual knowledge definitely diminishes aesthetic appreciation (although it can happen). I definitely think someone can punch someone and mean "I love you", chances are it will not be received that way though. I definitely think a parent can kill a child and still love them. It might be a dark, socially perverse expression but that does not change their feelings does it?

To say that science will uncover the true nature of human consciousness will still leave you questions as to the expression of it or the experience of it. Why does the universe seem so cruel sometimes and so giving the next?  You can rationalize it as your own perception, but that does not always satisfy as an answer. This is where art, poetry and the sublime come in to the picture. If you want to speak to a person's heart and not their mind you do not use objective knowledge, you speak experientially (is that a word?).

Anyway, even though you do not like the notion of wisdom, it exists nonetheless, do you have a definition of it?

I think this discussion is going off-topic...

You think? Have you seen the Appollo 13 thread?

But what about your teacher? Have you talked to him further?

Wow, I just saw this thread, it's an off-topic disaster!

My teacher? Well, I decided to don't say anything more to him, because he will hardly listen to me.

Listen very carefully to what he's teaching you. If something doesn't seem right, or doesn't make sense, get clarification. But do it in terms of the ideas he's presenting. Hold off on the flat earth ideas until you COMPLETELY understand the existing theory. Just remember that before you try to knock down a theory you need to provide an equivalent or better one. And a new theory has to be checked for ALL its implications to make sure they don't cause conflicts. Remember you're trying to find out the real truth, not just look for reasons to believe a theory you like. Good luck.

Many thanks for these advices!

Listen very carefully to what he's teaching you. If something doesn't seem right, or doesn't make sense, get clarification. But do it in terms of the ideas he's presenting. Hold off on the flat earth ideas until you COMPLETELY understand the existing theory. Just remember that before you try to knock down a theory you need to provide an equivalent or better one. And a new theory has to be checked for ALL its implications to make sure they don't cause conflicts. Remember you're trying to find out the real truth, not just look for reasons to believe a theory you like. Good luck.

It would be a shame if you were to actually think while you learned.

I think it's a shame when people put the cart before the horse when they learn. Ask questions, yes, but do not jump to conclusions.

Quote from: Shmeggley on April 05, 2013, 03:45:08 PM

...COMPLETELY understand...

It would be a shame if you were to actually think while you learned.

Understanding requires thought, and lots of it.

I think that you have to appreciate that while you are learning, you start from the ground up.  That means that there are some things which at the beginning you have to take as read, because the details of why they are true will be beyond the stage you are currently at and will be explained later.

Asking questions while learning is excellent, but asking questions about advanced concepts while you are trying to master the basics is a recipe for disaster. 

This can be incredibly frustrating, because if you are an intelligent, enquiring individual you will always want to go further than you have been taught.  The only real advice is to take the time to learn the basics.  A lot of what you are questioning now will be explained as you advance; this is purely because once you understand the foundations, you can begin to understand the entire building.

It may well be that as you advance you discover something entirely new and unexpected.  I hope you do, because that is how knowledge moves forward. But remember that your new theory has to explain things that have already been observed.  And understanding how observed things work the way we think they do takes a lot of work.

It sounds to me like you have an enquiring mind, and a willingness to challenge the received wisdom.  If you can combine that with study and understanding (not necessarily acceptance) of the way things are viewed today, you have an incredibly bright future ahead of you.  I wish you all the best.