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Thork

Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2013, 10:49:29 AM »
This thread has until now, completely ignored the effect of shear as air moves about the surface of earth. If earth was a globe, air moving towards the equator (wind) would need to speed up. The equator is supposed to be spinning faster after all. Also any air that rises needs to speed up as it now has a larger circle to make. What you end up with is a massive amount of shear as air is accelerated and decelerated from location to location. The changing temperatures and viscosities of air only serve to heighten this conundrum.

And all this changing of momentum and the resistance of this shear as 'parcels' of air rub past each other has the effect of acting like a massive brake. It after all is going to be taking energy from the spin of the earth in order to accelerate the air constantly. So if the earth is this whirling ball, why is the earth still spinning billions of years later and why is this shear and change of momentum constantly ignored by round earthers. Its a very serious flaw in your theory.

This phenomenon is actually used in practice, with fluid compasses which were invented as an improvement over the 'dry compass'.

The fluid damps the spinning ball in the centre, taking the energy out of it so it does not keep swinging past the direction with overshoot. It makes a better smooth compass.

Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compass#Liquid_compass
The liquid compass is a design in which the magnetized needle or card is damped by fluid to protect against excessive swing or wobble, improving readability while reducing wear.
Air is a fluid and you have the exact same set of circumstances. Round Earthers, you have some explaining to do.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 11:12:15 AM by Thork »

Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2013, 10:55:48 AM »
yeah i dont think sceptic understands inertia.

Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2013, 11:09:47 AM »
Invisible atmospher. Do you not belive in the atmospher as well?

Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2013, 11:31:28 AM »
Anyway, the earth is spinning in this vacuum of space  and everything inside earth, apart from the clouds and air, is spinning with the ground, including my attached to a pole vacuum chamber, yet inside that, my ball is not under the influence of the friction, so I can't see why as the earth rotates, why that ball should not roll to the end of the chamber.

Because gravity. Atmosphere or no atmosphere, the ball's behavior would be the same. The atmosphere doesn't "grip" the ball, the mass of the planet does. So it doesn't matter if the ball is in a vacuum or not.

Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2013, 11:42:18 AM »
yeah i dont think sceptic understands inertia.
Oh I do. I just don't accept it with an invisible ground gripping atmosphere.

Why would the atmosphere not be afected by inertia. But you would be correct in thinking that air bieng a fluid shouldnt sit perfectly still as the earth spins around bineath it. And of course it doesnt. THis is why the trade winds generaly move west at the equator.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 11:45:12 AM by SuperHater7810 »
Im a tractor

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Thork

Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2013, 11:45:03 AM »
I see the round earthers have ignored my objections and have chosen instead to aim their shots at the fish in the barrel (sceptimatic).

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hoppy

  • Flat Earth Believer
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Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2013, 11:49:25 AM »
I see the round earthers have ignored my objections and have chosen instead to aim their shots at the fish in the barrel (sceptimatic).
Your question is a good one, and the roundies have no answer at all.
God is real.                                         
http://www.scribd.com/doc/9665708/Flat-Earth-Bible-02-of-10-The-Flat-Earth

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Thork

Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2013, 11:57:35 AM »
My question could be extended to ocean currents.

The Humboldt current runs from the South Pole to the equator. All that water needs to be sped up from idling to almost 1000 mph.


Where does this energy come from? We are talking about billions of tons of water being moved to fantastical speeds. The whirling ball theory is laughable.

Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #38 on: February 25, 2013, 11:59:51 AM »
I see the round earthers have ignored my objections and have chosen instead to aim their shots at the fish in the barrel (sceptimatic).

WHy would the air speeding up and slowing down effect the speed of the earths rotation. If you where listening in school you should have learned that wind gets its energy from the sun.
Sun heats air. Warm air rises cold air falls and this creats a sort of conveyor belt in the atmosphere, sound familiar? And of course the speed of the earth at differint latitudes does play a roll in the whole thing (coriolis effect).
Im a tractor

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Thork

Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2013, 12:03:08 PM »
Sod it. That bloody dog can chew his bone. I'm going to find another thread.

Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2013, 12:04:34 PM »
Dont go thork.
Im a tractor

Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2013, 12:12:00 PM »
Im affraid your a bit of a buzz kill.
Im a tractor

Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2013, 12:16:04 PM »
This thread has until now, completely ignored the effect of shear as air moves about the surface of earth. If earth was a globe, air moving towards the equator (wind) would need to speed up. The equator is supposed to be spinning faster after all. Also any air that rises needs to speed up as it now has a larger circle to make. What you end up with is a massive amount of shear as air is accelerated and decelerated from location to location. The changing temperatures and viscosities of air only serve to heighten this conundrum.

And all this changing of momentum and the resistance of this shear as 'parcels' of air rub past each other has the effect of acting like a massive brake. It after all is going to be taking energy from the spin of the earth in order to accelerate the air constantly. So if the earth is this whirling ball, why is the earth still spinning billions of years later and why is this shear and change of momentum constantly ignored by round earthers. Its a very serious flaw in your theory.

This phenomenon is actually used in practice, with fluid compasses which were invented as an improvement over the 'dry compass'.

The fluid damps the spinning ball in the centre, taking the energy out of it so it does not keep swinging past the direction with overshoot. It makes a better smooth compass.

Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compass#Liquid_compass
The liquid compass is a design in which the magnetized needle or card is damped by fluid to protect against excessive swing or wobble, improving readability while reducing wear.
Air is a fluid and you have the exact same set of circumstances. Round Earthers, you have some explaining to do.

The difference in angular velocity of the atmosphere at different latitudes is actually part of what produces the Coriolis Effect. I know you claim it doesn't exist, but accept that the Coriolis Effect is a necessary consequence of a round earth. So if the earth is round, the Coriolis Effect exists, and is caused in part by the difference in angular velocity of the atmosphere at different latitudes.

As for slowing the earth down due to this... it's a closed system. As a mass of air moves toward the equator and has to speed up, an equal mass is moving away from the equator and has to slow down. The forces each exert against the earth offset, and result in a net zero effect on the rotation of the earth.

The earth itself is not a closed system, however. It is provided energy from the sun. So while energy may be lost due to friction within the atmosphere, the sun provides energy that offsets this.

Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2013, 12:19:34 PM »
There you go Thork, I've deleted the post, I'll leave the thread up to you.

Dont be too hard on your self Scepti. It could be my fault. Last time I was talking to thork he made a fairly imbarrising mistake.
Im a tractor

Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2013, 12:21:46 PM »
It is quite a common occurrence actually. I do find it ironic the he has infact partial discribe the Coriolis Effect.  ;D

Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2013, 12:36:38 PM »

What about now?


What makes you think the ball will "drop" toward one end of the box?  The box is still level.
Because we are supposed to be moving with the earth as in friction. This is what is told to us. Everything from the outside of the vacuum chamber would be part of this crap friction, yet the ball inside is independent of it as it sits inside a vacuum.
So theoretically as the earth turns, it should in reality be pulled the opposite way by the spin, yet even discounting that, it should at least fall as the earth rotates.

If we are told that if we are in the vacuum of space , we would see the earth spinning and the atmosphere with it as it's spinning through a vacuum, so if that's the case, the ball should also drop as that is in a vacuum, as the diagram states.
The ball is moving along with the surface.  It's in a vacuum so there's no air to speed it up or slow it down.  Gravity is pulling it downward.

It can only drop straight down, so how is it supposed to drop toward the end of the box?

Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2013, 12:57:58 PM »
Anyway, the earth is spinning in this vacuum of space  and everything inside earth, apart from the clouds and air, is spinning with the ground, including my attached to a pole vacuum chamber, yet inside that, my ball is not under the influence of the friction, so I can't see why as the earth rotates, why that ball should not roll to the end of the chamber.

Because gravity. Atmosphere or no atmosphere, the ball's behavior would be the same. The atmosphere doesn't "grip" the ball, the mass of the planet does. So it doesn't matter if the ball is in a vacuum or not.
The mass of the planet does does it. So what makes this mass grip the ball then?

We are not entirely sure. Einstein argued that gravity is a curve in space and time. But even though we don't fully understand gravity, we have observed it long enough to understand and predict its effects.

More info here:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/earth/geophysics/what-is-gravity.htm

Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2013, 01:01:50 PM »
This thread has until now, completely ignored the effect of shear as air moves about the surface of earth. If earth was a globe, air moving towards the equator (wind) would need to speed up. The equator is supposed to be spinning faster after all. Also any air that rises needs to speed up as it now has a larger circle to make. What you end up with is a massive amount of shear as air is accelerated and decelerated from location to location. The changing temperatures and viscosities of air only serve to heighten this conundrum.

And all this changing of momentum and the resistance of this shear as 'parcels' of air rub past each other has the effect of acting like a massive brake. It after all is going to be taking energy from the spin of the earth in order to accelerate the air constantly. So if the earth is this whirling ball, why is the earth still spinning billions of years later and why is this shear and change of momentum constantly ignored by round earthers. Its a very serious flaw in your theory.
The Earth's rotation has been slowing.  The moon's tidal influence on the oceans are a big part of that.
 
This phenomenon is actually used in practice, with fluid compasses which were invented as an improvement over the 'dry compass'.

The fluid damps the spinning ball in the centre, taking the energy out of it so it does not keep swinging past the direction with overshoot. It makes a better smooth compass.

Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compass#Liquid_compass
The liquid compass is a design in which the magnetized needle or card is damped by fluid to protect against excessive swing or wobble, improving readability while reducing wear.
Air is a fluid and you have the exact same set of circumstances. Round Earthers, you have some explaining to do.
Let's see, in one case you have a lightweight sphere rotating rapidly back and forth starting and stopping suddenly with a thick fluid around it providing friction against the sphere, with additional friction against the non-moving outside containment.

The other case is a heavy sphere rotating one revolution every 24 hours with a thin layer of air moving along with the surface with other currents in multiple directions influenced by an outside energy source and with no outside friction, and a partial thin layer of water, also moving multiple directions influenced by temperature plus the air moving above it.

I wouldn't call them the exact same circumstances, but that's just me.

Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2013, 01:03:37 PM »

What about now?


What makes you think the ball will "drop" toward one end of the box?  The box is still level.
Because we are supposed to be moving with the earth as in friction. This is what is told to us. Everything from the outside of the vacuum chamber would be part of this crap friction, yet the ball inside is independent of it as it sits inside a vacuum.
So theoretically as the earth turns, it should in reality be pulled the opposite way by the spin, yet even discounting that, it should at least fall as the earth rotates.

If we are told that if we are in the vacuum of space , we would see the earth spinning and the atmosphere with it as it's spinning through a vacuum, so if that's the case, the ball should also drop as that is in a vacuum, as the diagram states.
The ball is moving along with the surface.  It's in a vacuum so there's no air to speed it up or slow it down.  Gravity is pulling it downward.

It can only drop straight down, so how is it supposed to drop toward the end of the box?
The ball in a vacuum is, from a certain point of view, in orbit around the earth. At the moment the vacuum is removed, the ball has a velocity of X in a direction parallel to the plane of the equator, tangent to the surface of the earth at the point where the ball sits.

The next instant, the earth has rotated some amount, so the ball now has a velocity of X in a direction parallel to the plane of the equator, but no longer tangent to the point where it sits. Its velocity is now angled slightly upward. And since a small component (Y) of its velocity is away from the earth, its velocity tangent to the face of the earth is now Z = sqrt(X^2-Y^2) which is less than X.

So if no other forces acted on it, the ball would appear to move, from the reference point of the box moving with the earth, very quickly up and backward.

But gravity is acting on the ball. Like it acts on satellites in orbit, it pulls the ball toward the center of the earth, offsets Y, and adds enough to the ball's velocity to make Z once again equal to X. The angular velocity of the ball sitting on the surface of the earth may not be enough to achieve a stable orbit, as is necessary for satellites, but since it's sitting on the surface of the earth, it's a moot point.

Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #49 on: February 25, 2013, 01:05:19 PM »
My question could be extended to ocean currents.

The Humboldt current runs from the South Pole to the equator. All that water needs to be sped up from idling to almost 1000 mph.

No, it doesn't. The water that makes up this current is not all sitting in a perfect point under the south pole. Just like Skeptimatic's ball, the water is already moving along with the planet.

Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #50 on: February 25, 2013, 02:27:36 PM »
The next instant, the earth has rotated some amount, so the ball now has a velocity of X in a direction parallel to the plane of the equator, but no longer tangent to the point where it sits. Its velocity is now angled slightly upward. And since a small component (Y) of its velocity is away from the earth, its velocity tangent to the face of the earth is now Z = sqrt(X^2-Y^2) which is less than X.

So if no other forces acted on it, the ball would appear to move, from the reference point of the box moving with the earth, very quickly up and backward.
Factors I didn't really even think about.  Good point.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with Sceptimatic though, seeing as you have 5 posts and I'm not sure how many of his posts you've read.  I have reason to believe there's a whole different train of thought in his description of the ball "dropping" as he says in that diagram. 

Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #51 on: February 25, 2013, 06:43:28 PM »
There you go Thork, I've deleted the post, I'll leave the thread up to you.

quit that!
true wisdom is always concise

Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2013, 10:30:42 AM »

What about now?


What makes you think the ball will "drop" toward one end of the box?  The box is still level.
Because we are supposed to be moving with the earth as in friction. This is what is told to us. Everything from the outside of the vacuum chamber would be part of this crap friction, yet the ball inside is independent of it as it sits inside a vacuum.
So theoretically as the earth turns, it should in reality be pulled the opposite way by the spin, yet even discounting that, it should at least fall as the earth rotates.

If we are told that if we are in the vacuum of space , we would see the earth spinning and the atmosphere with it as it's spinning through a vacuum, so if that's the case, the ball should also drop as that is in a vacuum, as the diagram states.
Ironscotsman mentioned how the ball would be influenced to move to the rear of the box, but I'm still curious how you think it will 'drop' toward the front of the box like you illustrated.  The ball is being pulled straight down.

Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2013, 11:38:24 AM »
Hey sceptimatic maybe this will go some way to answering your ball in a vacume question. When your travelling in a car doing around 60mph. And you have a bowling ball that you toss in the air as the car is moving, Why doesnt it hit the back window of the car at 60mph.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 11:44:25 AM by SuperHater7810 »
Im a tractor

Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2013, 02:11:56 PM »
Hey sceptimatic maybe this will go some way to answering your ball in a vacume question. When your travelling in a car doing around 60mph. And you have a bowling ball that you toss in the air as the car is moving, Why doesnt it hit the back window of the car at 60mph.
Because you are in a tin can and glass vehicle.

SO what's your vacuum box thing made out of? why should this make a difference?
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Megaman

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Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #55 on: March 01, 2013, 03:29:40 AM »
My question could be extended to ocean currents.

The Humboldt current runs from the South Pole to the equator. All that water needs to be sped up from idling to almost 1000 mph.


Where does this energy come from? We are talking about billions of tons of water being moved to fantastical speeds. The whirling ball theory is laughable.

Dearest Thork,

I see you have never been on a merry-go-round. If you had, it would be glaringly obvious to you rotation actually helps water flow from the South pole to the equator. 

Sincerely,

SomeoneWhoThinksAboutThings

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Thork

Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #56 on: March 01, 2013, 03:45:30 AM »
My question could be extended to ocean currents.

The Humboldt current runs from the South Pole to the equator. All that water needs to be sped up from idling to almost 1000 mph.


Where does this energy come from? We are talking about billions of tons of water being moved to fantastical speeds. The whirling ball theory is laughable.

Dearest Thork,

I see you have never been on a merry-go-round. If you had, it would be glaringly obvious to you rotation actually helps water flow from the South pole to the equator. 

Sincerely,

SomeoneWhoThinksAboutThings

You think Coriolis is caused by centripetal force?

I believe you don't understand the forces involved with spinning bodies.

http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,57695.msg1458838.html#msg1458838
This is somewhat ironic.

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Megaman

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Re: Give me your opinions please.
« Reply #57 on: March 01, 2013, 04:21:34 AM »
My question could be extended to ocean currents.

The Humboldt current runs from the South Pole to the equator. All that water needs to be sped up from idling to almost 1000 mph.


Where does this energy come from? We are talking about billions of tons of water being moved to fantastical speeds. The whirling ball theory is laughable.

Dearest Thork,

I see you have never been on a merry-go-round. If you had, it would be glaringly obvious to you rotation actually helps water flow from the South pole to the equator. 

Sincerely,

SomeoneWhoThinksAboutThings

You think Coriolis is caused by centripetal force?


Nope. I never said it did. I'm just pointing out that your statement:

"The Humboldt current runs from the South Pole to the equator. All that water needs to be sped up from idling to almost 1000 mph.

Where does this energy come from? We are talking about billions of tons of water being moved to fantastical speeds. The whirling ball theory is laughable."

:implies that particles (or objects, or people, or cats) on a spinning object don't naturally move away from the center of rotation. There's a thing called centrifugal force which, judging by your statement about water needing to be sped up, you don't seem to understand.