Coriolis Effect

Quote from: Nolhekh on February 07, 2013, 06:25:16 PM

Inertia is the resistance to change in speed.  But there are different speeds on a rotating earth.  How can you ignore this?

It doesn't matter about the change in speed.

Nowhere on this Earth can you jump up or hover and see the Earth move under your feet, whether you are at the equator or at the pole so to speak and it doesn't matter which direction you do it, so going by that, it would have no effect on an artillery shell either.

Way to not understand inertia. You are moving the same speed as the ground, why should you move?
Also, way to not understand the coriolis effect. The shell moves from an area with the same horizontal velocity to one with more/less, why would it not move (from your prospective)?

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2013, 06:23:10 PM

Quote from: Nolhekh on February 07, 2013, 06:21:06 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2013, 06:17:49 PM

Quote from: Nolhekh on February 07, 2013, 06:08:06 PM

Why would it not be the case with a rotating earth?

Lets say where you fire your artillery from, the ground is moving at 1000 mph.  You take aim, and the ground where your target is is moving at 900 mph.  The shell when fired will be travelling at whatever speed it is that shells fire at, plus 1000 mph.  When it reaches the part of the ground moving 900 mph, it has 100 mph more speed than the ground.  This causes the shell to land slightly to the east of your target.  If the target fires back, it's shell will have 100 mph less speed than your artillery, and lands to the west of you, even though his barrel is pointing right at you.  Talk to anyone who's fired artillery, and they will tell you this is true.

The shell will be travelling at whatever speed it's fired at, end of story...."unless" you could view it from outside of the Earth, then it would be different, assuming the Earth is rotating, because then you would add the rotating speed in to your visual take on it.

If inertia is inertia, then it's inertia , you can't have it both ways and just decide one minute it's like a plane or train effect, then change it to artillery shells working opposite.

If I'm in a plane and I fire a small artillery shell from the back to the cockpit door at say 25 mph...from my point of view, it will hit that door at 25 mph irrespective of the plane travelling at 500 mph or 1000 mph.
I don;t need to make any adjustment to my aim, unless they decide to put a big blow fan on.

A plane is an analogy for one point on earth travelling at one speed.  The artillery thing takes two locations, travelling at differen speeds into account.  Please confirm that you understand that different places on a rotating ball rotate at different speeds.

INERTIA.
That's the only point you really need to know.

From earlier: Your personal opinion has nothing to do with the RE theory.

And no, you need to know what he just said that different places rotate at different speeds.

And I'm saying that it makes no difference.
I understand the bull shit that the Earth rotates at 1000 plus mph at the equator and slows the more you move toward the pole, until you get to the tip and you basically wouldn't be moving, or virtually not but it makes no difference at all as nobody can feel movement of the Earth no matter where they go, plus our body's in built clever balancing mechanism doesn't pick it up in the slightest, which should tell anyone who cared to listen that it's all a load of hog wash and the Earth is flat and still, as far as I'm concerned.

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2013, 06:35:25 PM

Quote from: Nolhekh on February 07, 2013, 06:25:16 PM

Inertia is the resistance to change in speed.  But there are different speeds on a rotating earth.  How can you ignore this?

It doesn't matter about the change in speed.

Nowhere on this Earth can you jump up or hover and see the Earth move under your feet, whether you are at the equator or at the pole so to speak and it doesn't matter which direction you do it, so going by that, it would have no effect on an artillery shell either.

Way to not understand inertia. You are moving the same speed as the ground, why should you move?
Also, say to not understand the coriolis effect. The shell moves from an area with the same horizontal velocity to one with more/less, why would it not move (from your prospective)?

If I jumped up on Earth and done a suspended animation type kung fu type stance...would the Earth pass me by at 1000 mph?
The obvious answer is no right?
If I do the same all the way to the pole, it's still not going to move under me, so why the hell would a shell need to be calibrated for this effect?

When you jump you stay in the same location relative to the surface.  It's not relevant to the coriolis effect.  When talking about two separate locations, such as a firing artillery and it's target, then the different speeds at different places become important. 

And please stop saying things are "bullshit."  You've acknowledged before that you can't know for sure, so why do you think it's appropriate to use such trollish language in a discussion?  It really is such a simple concept to me.  Turning it into language for you to understand is where the confusion occurs.  Just because it doesn't seem simple to you, doesn't mean it's not simple for me.

If I jumped up on Earth and done a suspended animation type kung fu type stance...would the Earth pass me by at 1000 mph?
The obvious answer is no right?

right

If I do the same all the way to the pole, it's still not going to move under me, so why the hell would a shell need to be calibrated for this effect?

If you're moving north or south while jumping, it actually will.  For you jumping, the effect is tiny.  For a projectile, it's more noticeable.

Quote from: Bollybill on February 07, 2013, 06:39:14 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2013, 06:35:25 PM

Quote from: Nolhekh on February 07, 2013, 06:25:16 PM

Inertia is the resistance to change in speed.  But there are different speeds on a rotating earth.  How can you ignore this?

It doesn't matter about the change in speed.

Nowhere on this Earth can you jump up or hover and see the Earth move under your feet, whether you are at the equator or at the pole so to speak and it doesn't matter which direction you do it, so going by that, it would have no effect on an artillery shell either.

Way to not understand inertia. You are moving the same speed as the ground, why should you move?
Also, say to not understand the coriolis effect. The shell moves from an area with the same horizontal velocity to one with more/less, why would it not move (from your prospective)?

If I jumped up on Earth and done a suspended animation type kung fu type stance...would the Earth pass me by at 1000 mph?
The obvious answer is no right?
If I do the same all the way to the pole, it's still not going to move under me, so why the hell would a shell need to be calibrated for this effect?

It depends how high you jump.

The shell moves from one area to another, both with different speeds.

Edit: ^^ Well, not 1,000 mph but it can move.

When you jump you stay in the same location relative to the surface.  It's not relevant to the coriolis effect.  When talking about two separate locations, such as a firing artillery and it's target, then the different speeds at different places become important. 

And please stop saying things are "bullshit."  You've acknowledged before that you can't know for sure, so why do you think it's appropriate to use such trollish language in a discussion?  It really is such a simple concept to me.  Turning it into language for you to understand is where the confusion occurs.  Just because it doesn't seem simple to you, doesn't mean it's not simple for me.

But it is simple to me, the only people that make it harder is people like you because deep down, you know in your own mind that it's flawed to hell In my opinion.

I'll tell you once more.
It doesn't matter if the shell is fired from wherever on your model because your stance is that everything on Earth, follows Earth, including a sea full of liquid...it all follows the rotation.

If I walk, north, south, east or west, or throw a ball in any direction, it will go in exactly the direction I throw it.

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2013, 06:43:32 PM

If I jumped up on Earth and done a suspended animation type kung fu type stance...would the Earth pass me by at 1000 mph?
The obvious answer is no right?

right

Quote

If I do the same all the way to the pole, it's still not going to move under me, so why the hell would a shell need to be calibrated for this effect?

If you're moving north or south while jumping, it actually will.  For you jumping, the effect is tiny.  For a projectile, it's more noticeable.

Oh come off it. The only time I would move is if I jumped in a gale force wind.

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2013, 06:43:32 PM

Quote from: Bollybill on February 07, 2013, 06:39:14 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2013, 06:35:25 PM

Quote from: Nolhekh on February 07, 2013, 06:25:16 PM

Inertia is the resistance to change in speed.  But there are different speeds on a rotating earth.  How can you ignore this?

It doesn't matter about the change in speed.

Nowhere on this Earth can you jump up or hover and see the Earth move under your feet, whether you are at the equator or at the pole so to speak and it doesn't matter which direction you do it, so going by that, it would have no effect on an artillery shell either.

Way to not understand inertia. You are moving the same speed as the ground, why should you move?
Also, say to not understand the coriolis effect. The shell moves from an area with the same horizontal velocity to one with more/less, why would it not move (from your prospective)?

If I jumped up on Earth and done a suspended animation type kung fu type stance...would the Earth pass me by at 1000 mph?
The obvious answer is no right?
If I do the same all the way to the pole, it's still not going to move under me, so why the hell would a shell need to be calibrated for this effect?

It depends how high you jump.

The shell moves from one area to another, both with different speeds.

Edit: ^^ Well, not 1,000 mph but it can move.

Of course it will move, if it encounters wind resistance..but we aren't talking about wind resistance.

What if the force moved you only a thirty second of an inch?  How would you tell?

Of course it will move, if it encounters wind resistance..but we aren't talking about wind resistance.

Great you've thought of another one of your theories... No, as a fact we are not talking about it though. It will move due to the coriolis effect and because the higher you go the bigger the difference of horizontal velocities between the object and the ground.

Quote from: sceptimatic

Of course it will move, if it encounters wind resistance..but we aren't talking about wind resistance.

Great you've thought of another one of your theories... No, as a fact we are not talking about it though. It will move due to the coriolis effect and because the higher you go the bigger the difference of horizontal velocities between the object and the ground.

I don't care how high you jump or fire your shell. The upper atmosphere to the edge of space is somehow gripped like a vice to a solid Earth crust.That's what we are told to believe.

Quote from: sceptimatic

Of course it will move, if it encounters wind resistance..but we aren't talking about wind resistance.

Great you've thought of another one of your theories... No, as a fact we are not talking about it though. It will move due to the coriolis effect and because the higher you go the bigger the difference of horizontal velocities between the object and the ground.

Actually, jumping vertically won't change your velocity relative to the ground.  It just changes the radius of the path you'd have to take to follow the curve.  Things get way more complicated to describe here.  Still simple for me to picture though.

Quote from: Bollybill on February 07, 2013, 07:02:22 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic

Of course it will move, if it encounters wind resistance..but we aren't talking about wind resistance.

Great you've thought of another one of your theories... No, as a fact we are not talking about it though. It will move due to the coriolis effect and because the higher you go the bigger the difference of horizontal velocities between the object and the ground.

I don't care how high you jump or fire your shell. The upper atmosphere to the edge of space is somehow gripped like a vice to a solid Earth crust.That's what we are told to believe.

It's not gripped.  It follows the earth under its own inertia

Quote from: Bollybill on February 07, 2013, 07:02:22 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic

Of course it will move, if it encounters wind resistance..but we aren't talking about wind resistance.

Great you've thought of another one of your theories... No, as a fact we are not talking about it though. It will move due to the coriolis effect and because the higher you go the bigger the difference of horizontal velocities between the object and the ground.

I don't care how high you jump or fire your shell. The upper atmosphere to the edge of space is somehow gripped like a vice to a solid Earth crust.That's what we are told to believe.

Who told you to forget friction? And 'gripped like a vice' is pretty inaccurate.

What if the force moved you only a thirty second of an inch?  How would you tell?

If it's gonna move under me, it will simply move under me. Now at the equator, that means if I jump up for just 2 seconds, I should land theoretically half a mile away with no skin on my face or body probably.

Quote from: Bollybill on February 07, 2013, 07:02:22 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic

Of course it will move, if it encounters wind resistance..but we aren't talking about wind resistance.

Great you've thought of another one of your theories... No, as a fact we are not talking about it though. It will move due to the coriolis effect and because the higher you go the bigger the difference of horizontal velocities between the object and the ground.

Actually, jumping vertically won't change your velocity relative to the ground.  It just changes the radius of the path you'd have to take to follow the curve.  Things get way more complicated to describe here.  Still simple for me to picture though.

Of course it gets more complicated, it's main stream science. Amaze them with the concept and baffle them with the bullshit.

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2013, 07:07:56 PM

Quote from: Bollybill on February 07, 2013, 07:02:22 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic

Of course it will move, if it encounters wind resistance..but we aren't talking about wind resistance.

Great you've thought of another one of your theories... No, as a fact we are not talking about it though. It will move due to the coriolis effect and because the higher you go the bigger the difference of horizontal velocities between the object and the ground.

I don't care how high you jump or fire your shell. The upper atmosphere to the edge of space is somehow gripped like a vice to a solid Earth crust.That's what we are told to believe.

It's not gripped.  It follows the earth under its own inertia

It follows the Earth under it's "own" inertia?

This should be good. Can you explain this please?

Quote from: Bollybill on February 07, 2013, 07:02:22 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic

Of course it will move, if it encounters wind resistance..but we aren't talking about wind resistance.

Great you've thought of another one of your theories... No, as a fact we are not talking about it though. It will move due to the coriolis effect and because the higher you go the bigger the difference of horizontal velocities between the object and the ground.

Actually, jumping vertically won't change your velocity relative to the ground.  It just changes the radius of the path you'd have to take to follow the curve.  Things get way more complicated to describe here.  Still simple for me to picture though.

Yes I guess I explained it wrong, I meant to say that to follow the ground they must be moving faster or something along those lines, I just don't know the 'scientific words' like you do. ;p

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2013, 07:07:56 PM

Quote from: Bollybill on February 07, 2013, 07:02:22 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic

Of course it will move, if it encounters wind resistance..but we aren't talking about wind resistance.

Great you've thought of another one of your theories... No, as a fact we are not talking about it though. It will move due to the coriolis effect and because the higher you go the bigger the difference of horizontal velocities between the object and the ground.

I don't care how high you jump or fire your shell. The upper atmosphere to the edge of space is somehow gripped like a vice to a solid Earth crust.That's what we are told to believe.

Who told you to forget friction? And 'gripped like a vice' is pretty inaccurate.

So it's now skimming along the surface sort of like a rough sandpaper effect then?

Quote from: Nolhekh on February 07, 2013, 06:56:40 PM

What if the force moved you only a thirty second of an inch?  How would you tell?

If it's gonna move under me, it will simply move under me. Now at the equator, that means if I jump up for just 2 seconds, I should land theoretically half a mile away with no skin on my face or body probably.

No!!!!! For the hundredth time you don't understand inertia! You don't stop moving because you aren't touching the ground, you continue to move at the same speed!

Quote from: Nolhekh on February 07, 2013, 07:08:57 PM

Quote from: Bollybill on February 07, 2013, 07:02:22 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic

Of course it will move, if it encounters wind resistance..but we aren't talking about wind resistance.

Great you've thought of another one of your theories... No, as a fact we are not talking about it though. It will move due to the coriolis effect and because the higher you go the bigger the difference of horizontal velocities between the object and the ground.

Actually, jumping vertically won't change your velocity relative to the ground.  It just changes the radius of the path you'd have to take to follow the curve.  Things get way more complicated to describe here.  Still simple for me to picture though.

Yes I guess I explained it wrong, I meant to say that to follow the ground they must be moving faster or something along those lines, I just don't know the 'scientific words' like you do. ;p

Moving faster? You mean the atmosphere is moving faster than the Earth? Can you explain this if you don't mind?

Quote from: Bollybill on February 07, 2013, 07:10:21 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2013, 07:07:56 PM

Quote from: Bollybill on February 07, 2013, 07:02:22 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic

Of course it will move, if it encounters wind resistance..but we aren't talking about wind resistance.

Great you've thought of another one of your theories... No, as a fact we are not talking about it though. It will move due to the coriolis effect and because the higher you go the bigger the difference of horizontal velocities between the object and the ground.

I don't care how high you jump or fire your shell. The upper atmosphere to the edge of space is somehow gripped like a vice to a solid Earth crust.That's what we are told to believe.

Who told you to forget friction? And 'gripped like a vice' is pretty inaccurate.

So it's now skimming along the surface sort of like a rough sandpaper effect then?

Friction isn't just with solids... Plus, the air has maintained it's inertia after billions of years of this friction.

Quote from: Bollybill on February 07, 2013, 07:14:44 PM

Quote from: Nolhekh on February 07, 2013, 07:08:57 PM

Quote from: Bollybill on February 07, 2013, 07:02:22 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic

Of course it will move, if it encounters wind resistance..but we aren't talking about wind resistance.

Great you've thought of another one of your theories... No, as a fact we are not talking about it though. It will move due to the coriolis effect and because the higher you go the bigger the difference of horizontal velocities between the object and the ground.

Actually, jumping vertically won't change your velocity relative to the ground.  It just changes the radius of the path you'd have to take to follow the curve.  Things get way more complicated to describe here.  Still simple for me to picture though.

Yes I guess I explained it wrong, I meant to say that to follow the ground they must be moving faster or something along those lines, I just don't know the 'scientific words' like you do. ;p

Moving faster? You mean the atmosphere is moving faster than the Earth? Can you explain this if you don't mind?

I was talking about an object, not the atmosphere.

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2013, 07:12:16 PM

Quote from: Nolhekh on February 07, 2013, 06:56:40 PM

What if the force moved you only a thirty second of an inch?  How would you tell?

If it's gonna move under me, it will simply move under me. Now at the equator, that means if I jump up for just 2 seconds, I should land theoretically half a mile away with no skin on my face or body probably.

No!!!!! For the hundredth time you don't understand inertia! You don't stop moving because you aren't touching the ground, you continue to move at the same speed!

I know that. I was saying that if you are deciding that I could move a fraction of an inch, we may as well go the whole hog and have me jump and have my face whipped off and land  in some old ladies garden half a mile away, skeletonised. 

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2013, 07:17:45 PM

Quote from: Bollybill on February 07, 2013, 07:14:44 PM

Quote from: Nolhekh on February 07, 2013, 07:08:57 PM

Quote from: Bollybill on February 07, 2013, 07:02:22 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic

Of course it will move, if it encounters wind resistance..but we aren't talking about wind resistance.

Great you've thought of another one of your theories... No, as a fact we are not talking about it though. It will move due to the coriolis effect and because the higher you go the bigger the difference of horizontal velocities between the object and the ground.

Actually, jumping vertically won't change your velocity relative to the ground.  It just changes the radius of the path you'd have to take to follow the curve.  Things get way more complicated to describe here.  Still simple for me to picture though.

Yes I guess I explained it wrong, I meant to say that to follow the ground they must be moving faster or something along those lines, I just don't know the 'scientific words' like you do. ;p

Moving faster? You mean the atmosphere is moving faster than the Earth? Can you explain this if you don't mind?

I was talking about an object, not the atmosphere.

You're baffling me now. Do you mean an object has to move faster than the Earth?

Quote from: Bollybill on February 07, 2013, 07:17:30 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2013, 07:12:16 PM

Quote from: Nolhekh on February 07, 2013, 06:56:40 PM

What if the force moved you only a thirty second of an inch?  How would you tell?

If it's gonna move under me, it will simply move under me. Now at the equator, that means if I jump up for just 2 seconds, I should land theoretically half a mile away with no skin on my face or body probably.

No!!!!! For the hundredth time you don't understand inertia! You don't stop moving because you aren't touching the ground, you continue to move at the same speed!

I know that. I was saying that if you are deciding that I could move a fraction of an inch, we may as well go the whole hog and have me jump and have my face whipped off and land  in some old ladies garden half a mile away, skeletonised. 

But there's no reason for that to happen.

Quote from: Bollybill on February 07, 2013, 07:21:05 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2013, 07:17:45 PM

Quote from: Bollybill on February 07, 2013, 07:14:44 PM

Quote from: Nolhekh on February 07, 2013, 07:08:57 PM

Quote from: Bollybill on February 07, 2013, 07:02:22 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic

Of course it will move, if it encounters wind resistance..but we aren't talking about wind resistance.

Great you've thought of another one of your theories... No, as a fact we are not talking about it though. It will move due to the coriolis effect and because the higher you go the bigger the difference of horizontal velocities between the object and the ground.

Actually, jumping vertically won't change your velocity relative to the ground.  It just changes the radius of the path you'd have to take to follow the curve.  Things get way more complicated to describe here.  Still simple for me to picture though.

Yes I guess I explained it wrong, I meant to say that to follow the ground they must be moving faster or something along those lines, I just don't know the 'scientific words' like you do. ;p

Moving faster? You mean the atmosphere is moving faster than the Earth? Can you explain this if you don't mind?

I was talking about an object, not the atmosphere.

You're baffling me now. Do you mean an object has to move faster than the Earth?

Idk what you're thinking but this is what I was saying:
An object on the equator is moving at 1,000 mph to stay at the same point above the ground. An object, say 200 miles above the equator, must move faster than 1,000 mph to stay above the same point (although it would require constant thrust to stay there but that is besides the point). In fact, this is what allows for geo-stationary satellites. They are at the altitude where the speed to stay above one point is equal to the speed required to orbit.

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2013, 07:21:23 PM

Quote from: Bollybill on February 07, 2013, 07:17:30 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2013, 07:12:16 PM

Quote from: Nolhekh on February 07, 2013, 06:56:40 PM

What if the force moved you only a thirty second of an inch?  How would you tell?

If it's gonna move under me, it will simply move under me. Now at the equator, that means if I jump up for just 2 seconds, I should land theoretically half a mile away with no skin on my face or body probably.

No!!!!! For the hundredth time you don't understand inertia! You don't stop moving because you aren't touching the ground, you continue to move at the same speed!

I know that. I was saying that if you are deciding that I could move a fraction of an inch, we may as well go the whole hog and have me jump and have my face whipped off and land  in some old ladies garden half a mile away, skeletonised. 

But there's no reason for that to happen.

Exactly. Just the same as there's no reason an artillery shell will appear to change trajectory due to the Earth deciding to sod the law for everything else and concentrate on sniper bullets and artillery shells.

Quote from: Bollybill on February 07, 2013, 07:23:55 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2013, 07:21:23 PM

Quote from: Bollybill on February 07, 2013, 07:17:30 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 07, 2013, 07:12:16 PM

Quote from: Nolhekh on February 07, 2013, 06:56:40 PM

What if the force moved you only a thirty second of an inch?  How would you tell?

If it's gonna move under me, it will simply move under me. Now at the equator, that means if I jump up for just 2 seconds, I should land theoretically half a mile away with no skin on my face or body probably.

No!!!!! For the hundredth time you don't understand inertia! You don't stop moving because you aren't touching the ground, you continue to move at the same speed!

I know that. I was saying that if you are deciding that I could move a fraction of an inch, we may as well go the whole hog and have me jump and have my face whipped off and land  in some old ladies garden half a mile away, skeletonised. 

But there's no reason for that to happen.

Exactly. Just the same as there's no reason an artillery shell will appear to change trajectory due to the Earth deciding to sod the law for everything else and concentrate on sniper bullets and artillery shells.

Nope, that is the coriolis effect and others which I don't feel like explaining to you again.