Government Conspiracy

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RealScientist

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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #90 on: January 31, 2013, 01:05:31 AM »
Undefined values/results are a way of teachers and professors to teach concepts that students aren't responsible enough to deal with.
Okay. Then show me an equation where x/0=y, y being a real number.
Who says that y has to be a real number?  After all, the square root of -1 is i, an imaginary number.
Fair enough. x/0=y, y being a defined number, period.

How about 3/0(0)=3. 

amiright?
You are so wrong it is not even funny. Just to show you how the use of undefined numbers leads nowhere,

(3/0)*(0) = x*(0) = 0
(3/0)*(0) = 3

You can get any number to fit that undefined number if you play a little with formulas. That is what undefined means. You cannot give it any definition without creating contradictions.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #91 on: January 31, 2013, 01:21:57 AM »
Undefined values/results are a way of teachers and professors to teach concepts that students aren't responsible enough to deal with.
Okay. Then show me an equation where x/0=y, y being a real number.
Who says that y has to be a real number?  After all, the square root of -1 is i, an imaginary number.
Fair enough. x/0=y, y being a defined number, period.

How about 3/0(0)=3. 

amiright?
You are so wrong it is not even funny. Just to show you how the use of undefined numbers leads nowhere,

(3/0)*(0) = x*(0) = 0
(3/0)*(0) = 3

You can get any number to fit that undefined number if you play a little with formulas. That is what undefined means. You cannot give it any definition without creating contradictions.

But, the 0s cancel out.  Let me try to simplify it for you. 

(3/0)(0/1)=3

Does that make more sense?

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Beorn

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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #92 on: January 31, 2013, 01:22:32 AM »
Undefined values/results are a way of teachers and professors to teach concepts that students aren't responsible enough to deal with.
Okay. Then show me an equation where x/0=y, y being a real number.
Who says that y has to be a real number?  After all, the square root of -1 is i, an imaginary number.
Fair enough. x/0=y, y being a defined number, period.

How about 3/0(0)=3. 

amiright?
You are so wrong it is not even funny. Just to show you how the use of undefined numbers leads nowhere,

(3/0)*(0) = x*(0) = 0
(3/0)*(0) = 3

You can get any number to fit that undefined number if you play a little with formulas. That is what undefined means. You cannot give it any definition without creating contradictions.

infinity - infinity = 0 amiright
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Son of Orospu

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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #93 on: January 31, 2013, 01:25:45 AM »
Undefined values/results are a way of teachers and professors to teach concepts that students aren't responsible enough to deal with.
Okay. Then show me an equation where x/0=y, y being a real number.
Who says that y has to be a real number?  After all, the square root of -1 is i, an imaginary number.
Fair enough. x/0=y, y being a defined number, period.

How about 3/0(0)=3. 

amiright?
You are so wrong it is not even funny. Just to show you how the use of undefined numbers leads nowhere,

(3/0)*(0) = x*(0) = 0
(3/0)*(0) = 3

You can get any number to fit that undefined number if you play a little with formulas. That is what undefined means. You cannot give it any definition without creating contradictions.

infinity - infinity = 0 amiright

But, what about infinity squared?

Checkmate.

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Sytruan

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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #94 on: January 31, 2013, 04:34:05 AM »
Undefined values/results are a way of teachers and professors to teach concepts that students aren't responsible enough to deal with.
Okay. Then show me an equation where x/0=y, y being a real number.
Who says that y has to be a real number?  After all, the square root of -1 is i, an imaginary number.
Fair enough. x/0=y, y being a defined number, period.
Meaning we can use it.  I had I said this already a page ago with:

a/b = a*b+, in this case b+ = 0+
And so x*0+=?

You can fill in the X with any real number you want (except for 0, because that introduces a different problem), I don't see how it would make a difference.

If you're just shifting variables around, then that's not actually answering the equation. Saying that 4/2=4*2+ is interesting, but it doesn't actually answer the problem.

Also, jroa - that doesn't work either. If you take 0 to mean an actual value, then you are adding another value into the equation for no reason other than to solve it. x/y=x because x/y*y/1=x? That makes no sense.

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mathsman

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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #95 on: January 31, 2013, 04:43:27 AM »
Undefined values/results are a way of teachers and professors to teach concepts that students aren't responsible enough to deal with.

Thank goodness we've got you to help us. I feel so much more enlightened now.

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mathsman

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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #96 on: January 31, 2013, 04:55:26 AM »
Undefined values/results are a way of teachers and professors to teach concepts that students aren't responsible enough to deal with.
Okay. Then show me an equation where x/0=y, y being a real number.
Who says that y has to be a real number?  After all, the square root of -1 is i, an imaginary number.

Couldn't resist throwing this in:

ii=e-pi/2 a real number.

And now I have to ask myself, will Mr Davis consider me responsible enough to deal with this?

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RealScientist

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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #97 on: January 31, 2013, 06:34:31 AM »
Undefined values/results are a way of teachers and professors to teach concepts that students aren't responsible enough to deal with.
Okay. Then show me an equation where x/0=y, y being a real number.
Who says that y has to be a real number?  After all, the square root of -1 is i, an imaginary number.
Fair enough. x/0=y, y being a defined number, period.

How about 3/0(0)=3. 

amiright?
You are so wrong it is not even funny. Just to show you how the use of undefined numbers leads nowhere,

(3/0)*(0) = x*(0) = 0
(3/0)*(0) = 3

You can get any number to fit that undefined number if you play a little with formulas. That is what undefined means. You cannot give it any definition without creating contradictions.

But, the 0s cancel out.  Let me try to simplify it for you. 

(3/0)(0/1)=3

Does that make more sense?
You continue dancing around non-numbers as if you could somehow use eloquence to fix a maths problem.

It does not make sense now, it did not make sense before. If you have a formula that contains a division by zero in any way the result is undefined. In fact, canceling zeroes out of the denominator is so wrong that in any good school you would flunk.

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mathsman

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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #98 on: January 31, 2013, 08:01:14 AM »
infinity - infinity = 0 amiright

No.

For a start, there are different sorts of infinity: the infinity of the natural numbers is different from the infinity of the real numbers.
The natural numbers are 'countable'. That means the natural numbers can be placed in a list with a first number, a second number, a third number etc.

The real numbers can't be placed in such a list.

Secondly, if we consider the set of natural numbers starting at 1 and the set of natural numbers starting at 2 we have two infinte sets but the second set minus the first set is the single element 1 which is not zero.

Thirdly, if we consider the set of even natural numbers and the set of odd natural numbers and add these two infinite sets together sets together the result is the infinite set of natural numbers. As all of these sets can be put into a one-to-one correspondence i.e. can be placed in a list this would imply their infinities are the same and

infinity + infinity = infinity,

from which we get infinity = infinity - infinity which contradicts the second point above.

That's why mathematics should be left to mathematicians; they're so much better at it than anybody else.

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Beorn

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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #99 on: January 31, 2013, 08:35:19 AM »
infinity - infinity = 0 amiright

No.

For a start, there are different sorts of infinity: the infinity of the natural numbers is different from the infinity of the real numbers.
The natural numbers are 'countable'. That means the natural numbers can be placed in a list with a first number, a second number, a third number etc.

The real numbers can't be placed in such a list.

Secondly, if we consider the set of natural numbers starting at 1 and the set of natural numbers starting at 2 we have two infinte sets but the second set minus the first set is the single element 1 which is not zero.

Thirdly, if we consider the set of even natural numbers and the set of odd natural numbers and add these two infinite sets together sets together the result is the infinite set of natural numbers. As all of these sets can be put into a one-to-one correspondence i.e. can be placed in a list this would imply their infinities are the same and

infinity + infinity = infinity,

from which we get infinity = infinity - infinity which contradicts the second point above.

That's why mathematics should be left to mathematicians; they're so much better at it than anybody else.

infinity + infinity = 2x infinity -> 2x infinity - infinity = infinity -> infinity - infinity = 0

amiright
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squevil

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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #100 on: January 31, 2013, 08:46:57 AM »
You guys must be great at parties.

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Sytruan

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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #101 on: January 31, 2013, 08:57:34 AM »
infinity + infinity = 2x infinity -> 2x infinity - infinity = infinity -> infinity - infinity = 0

amiright
Nope. "2x infinity" = infinity. Infinity isn't a number, by the way. It's a concept.

Infinity is weird, Beorn. You can do Infinity-infinity=1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, infinity, -6, etc. You could do infinity/infinity=2, 3, 12, infinity, etc.

If you add negative infinity into the mix, it gets absurd.

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Beorn

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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #102 on: January 31, 2013, 09:11:46 AM »
If you have an infinitely big hotel with infinitely amount of guests and all guests would leave you would have 0 guests.

amiright.
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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #103 on: January 31, 2013, 09:43:42 AM »
If you have an infinitely big hotel with infinitely amount of guests and all guests would leave you would have 0 guests.

amiright.

Correct, the hotel would be empty, as otherwise would mean there are guests, but we assumed all of them left.

However, if all of them but 1 leave, the same number of guests leave as if all of them left.  This is how infinity in set theory or combinatorics can get weird.

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Beorn

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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #104 on: January 31, 2013, 10:10:13 AM »
If you have an infinitely big hotel with infinitely amount of guests and all guests would leave you would have 0 guests.

amiright.

Correct, the hotel would be empty, as otherwise would mean there are guests, but we assumed all of them left.

However, if all of them but 1 leave, the same number of guests leave as if all of them left.  This is how infinity in set theory or combinatorics can get weird.

So the last person got cloned.
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markjo

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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #105 on: January 31, 2013, 10:12:48 AM »
Undefined values/results are a way of teachers and professors to teach concepts that students aren't responsible enough to deal with.
Okay. Then show me an equation where x/0=y, y being a real number.
Who says that y has to be a real number?  After all, the square root of -1 is i, an imaginary number.
Fair enough. x/0=y, y being a defined number, period.

How about 3/0(0)=3. 

amiright?
No.  It's a common mathematical fallacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_fallacy
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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #106 on: January 31, 2013, 10:21:09 AM »
So the last person got cloned.

Nope.  Trying to apply intuition to cardinality of infinite sets tends to lead to nonsense.  Here's something to try to demonstrate the point of this.

Take a hotel with an infinite number of rooms labeled room 1, room 2, and so on.  Fill up all the rooms.  Now add 1 to each room number, so now we have room 2, room 3, and so on.

Nothing happened to any of the rooms other than the fact that we changed the label.

Now break down a wall and add in another room.  (Ignore the possible disturbance this could cause to the guests.)  Label it room 1.

Note that this set of rooms should now be equivalent to the set of rooms we started with, as we have one room labeled room 1, one room labeled room 2, and so on.  There are the same number of people in the hotel, but one room's empty in one but full in the other.

This should be a convincing enough argument that the number of people in a hotel with an infinite number of rooms with 1 person in them each is the number of people in a hotel with an infinite number of rooms with 1 person in them each, save 1 empty room.

Another thing to note is that, in the hotel case with labels 2, 3, etc., ask everyone to leave.  You have a bunch of people leaving.  In a hotel with labels 1, 2, 3, etc., ask everyone but the person in room 1 to leave.  As someone's leaving for every natural number which is at least 2, the same number of people are leaving every time.  I just demonstrated that the same number of people are in both hotels, but after the same number of people leave, one person is left over in one and no people are left in the other.

Again, don't try to take this intuitively, that can lead to problems.

And, a couple pages back:


Also, a very eminent member of this society has given thorough proof that 1+1 = 1

1+1 does not equal 1 because 1=2.

Consider the following proof:

Let a=b where a and b are real numbers,
then ab=b2
so ab-a2=b2-a2.

Factorising both sides gives us

a(b-a)=(b+a)(b-a)

and cancelling out the common factor of b-a leads to

a=b+a.

Choosing a=b=1 we get 1=2.
Hooray for logical errors. (b-a)=0 because b=a. Substituting 4 for a to prove my point... b-4=0 because b=4.

Also, Beorn. The picture you posted breaks down because we define those partially by comparing them to real-world examples (if we didn't initially define words by using physical examples, how could we develop or learn language in the first place?). One object along with one more of that object makes two of that object. Remember, however, that math was initially created with solid objects. Liquids do not act in the same way, so it's pointless to equate solids with liquids (referring to the link you posted).

All of this is pointless though because language (logical equations included) is used to describe reality and communicate ideas. Arguing semantics is an asinine method of debate or point-making. We can communicate what we mean, and that is what matters.

1 raindrop + 1 raindrop is still 1 raindrop.

The problem here is that the expression "1+1" is an abstract mathematical concept, as opposed to "the number of apples on a table if we put an apple on the table and then another apple on the table" or "the number of raindrops formed if we bring two raindrops next to each other."  (It happens to be equal to the first, and one might need a more rigorous definition of "number of raindrops" to determine if it's equal to the second.)

My point is that parallels to the real world do not constitute a mathematical proof.

EDIT: Beaten!
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 10:31:59 AM by Whovian »

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Beorn

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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #107 on: January 31, 2013, 11:10:40 AM »
1 + 1 = 11
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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #108 on: January 31, 2013, 12:11:29 PM »
You can make any mathematical statement you like, it doesn't make it true.

To the above, I don't see any valid reasoning behind it.  Can you explain your reasoning?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2013, 01:08:57 PM by Whovian »

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John Davis

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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #109 on: February 02, 2013, 07:10:11 PM »
infinity + infinity = 2x infinity -> 2x infinity - infinity = infinity -> infinity - infinity = 0

amiright
Nope. "2x infinity" = infinity. Infinity isn't a number, by the way. It's a concept.

Infinity is weird, Beorn. You can do Infinity-infinity=1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, infinity, -6, etc. You could do infinity/infinity=2, 3, 12, infinity, etc.

If you add negative infinity into the mix, it gets absurd.
Infinity, as a matter of fact, can be a number;  a variety of different numbers in fact.
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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #110 on: February 02, 2013, 07:34:54 PM »

Infinity, as a matter of fact, can be a number;  a variety of different numbers in fact.

No. That's like saying .9 repeating can stop at some point. No, it repeats forever. Infinity cannot be a number because if you choose one you could've chosen higher and therefore it's not infinity.
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John Davis

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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #111 on: February 02, 2013, 07:50:51 PM »
Quantum Ab Hoc

Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #112 on: February 02, 2013, 07:53:24 PM »
For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph_number

Did you even read that yourself?

"The aleph numbers differ from the infinity (∞) commonly found in algebra and calculus. Alephs measure the sizes of sets; infinity, on the other hand, is commonly defined as an extreme limit of the real number line (applied to a function or sequence that "diverges to infinity" or "increases without bound"), or an extreme point of the extended real number line."
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John Davis

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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #113 on: February 02, 2013, 07:58:34 PM »
No I didn't, because I actually know the material.  Perhaps you need to read that more carefully, because I dont think its saying what you think it does.

Beside the point though.  That was just one example.  For example many ring systems ordinate an infinity, positive, negative or both.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2013, 08:01:06 PM by John Davis »
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John Davis

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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #114 on: February 02, 2013, 08:06:56 PM »
Really anytime you tell anyone "you can't do that in math" or "math says this:" you are thinking about math incorrectly.  Math is a tool that may or may not have any relation to the real world.  We define certain situations for ourselves with it to use it as a useful lie / tool.  By arguing you can't do such and such in math you are arguing that the problem is of a nature of which it can't be abstracted and dealt with using laws or logics.  Of course, we can easily see the fruitless nature of such will.
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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #115 on: February 02, 2013, 08:10:17 PM »
Even though my language may have said "you can't do that", you are the one giving limits to infinity.  I'm saying infinity is limitless, therefore giving no bounds to the number.
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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #116 on: February 02, 2013, 08:13:06 PM »

Infinity, as a matter of fact, can be a number;  a variety of different numbers in fact.

Name one.
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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #117 on: February 03, 2013, 03:47:43 AM »

Infinity, as a matter of fact, can be a number;  a variety of different numbers in fact.

Name one.

Negative infinity.
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markjo

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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #118 on: February 03, 2013, 08:46:09 AM »

Infinity, as a matter of fact, can be a number;  a variety of different numbers in fact.

Name one.

Negative infinity.

Infinity is not so much a number as it is a concept.
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John Davis

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Re: Government Conspiracy
« Reply #119 on: February 03, 2013, 09:26:16 AM »

Infinity, as a matter of fact, can be a number;  a variety of different numbers in fact.

Name one.
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For example many ring systems ordinate an infinity, positive, negative or both.
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