Moon Hoax, Not

Sceptimatic: You see to be very misinformed and have an odd way of looking at things. I will try to explain in a way where you can test this out for yourself.

Imagine you are on a small raft on some water, your feet are fixed to the raft, and you are carrying a medicine ball (or some other kind of reasonable weight).

There are no other forces, no waves, no wind etc. acting upon you. So there are no other influences.

You now hurl the medicine burl as hard as you can, to the left for example.

Surely you can understand as you do this you, on your raft, will move to the right. This occurs because of the conservation of momentum.


From what I can see, you seem to think that hurling the ball to the left would 'push' against the air and that is why you move. This is incorrect simply because of what would happen if you did the following:

The scenario is the same as above, but this time instead of the medicine ball (or other weight), you have a circular shape - the shape corresponds to the same shape as the medicine ball.

If you were to quickly thrust this flat shape out to the left you will not move to the right in anyway near the same manner as the above scenario. This is because the force exerted by 'pushing' against the air is negligible compared to the force exerted by conservation momentum.

Of course conservation momentum is determined by how fast you throw the ball. If you just give it a little throw you will not move as far in the opposite direction as if you were to hurl it. Momentum is defined as mass times speed, so it is determined by how heavy the thing you're throwing is, and how fast you throw it. If you try this with a tennis ball it wouldn't work because a tennis ball just isn't heavy enough.

This is the principle of how rockets work, and can work in a vacuum.

Sceptimatic: You see to be very misinformed and have an odd way of looking at things. I will try to explain in a way where you can test this out for yourself.

Imagine you are on a small raft on some water, your feet are fixed to the raft, and you are carrying a medicine ball (or some other kind of reasonable weight).

There are no other forces, no waves, no wind etc. acting upon you. So there are no other influences.

You now hurl the medicine burl as hard as you can, to the left for example.

Surely you can understand as you do this you, on your raft, will move to the right. This occurs because of the conservation of momentum.


From what I can see, you seem to think that hurling the ball to the left would 'push' against the air and that is why you move. This is incorrect simply because of what would happen if you did the following:

The scenario is the same as above, but this time instead of the medicine ball (or other weight), you have a circular shape - the shape corresponds to the same shape as the medicine ball.

If you were to quickly thrust this flat shape out to the left you will not move to the right in anyway near the same manner as the above scenario. This is because the force exerted by 'pushing' against the air is negligible compared to the force exerted by conservation momentum.

Of course conservation momentum is determined by how fast you throw the ball. If you just give it a little throw you will not move as far in the opposite direction as if you were to hurl it. Momentum is defined as mass times speed, so it is determined by how heavy the thing you're throwing is, and how fast you throw it. If you try this with a tennis ball it wouldn't work because a tennis ball just isn't heavy enough.

This is the principle of how rockets work, and can work in a vacuum.

A more testable version would be to get a skateboard on a flat surface, rather than using a raft on water. It loses the directionality that you had with the raft, but it's more feasible.

I've always considered myself as the greatest artist of FET, but realize that it is time to step down from the throne to admire the new king. His work surpasses anything I have seen before in the art/science genre, and I look forward to following the work of this young aspiring painter in the future. A wizard with a brush, a seducer of physics, and a mainstay of our dear FET. Long live sceptimatic.

Sceptimatic: You see to be very misinformed and have an odd way of looking at things. I will try to explain in a way where you can test this out for yourself.

Imagine you are on a small raft on some water, your feet are fixed to the raft, and you are carrying a medicine ball (or some other kind of reasonable weight).

There are no other forces, no waves, no wind etc. acting upon you. So there are no other influences.

You now hurl the medicine burl as hard as you can, to the left for example.

Surely you can understand as you do this you, on your raft, will move to the right. This occurs because of the conservation of momentum.


From what I can see, you seem to think that hurling the ball to the left would 'push' against the air and that is why you move. This is incorrect simply because of what would happen if you did the following:

The scenario is the same as above, but this time instead of the medicine ball (or other weight), you have a circular shape - the shape corresponds to the same shape as the medicine ball.

If you were to quickly thrust this flat shape out to the left you will not move to the right in anyway near the same manner as the above scenario. This is because the force exerted by 'pushing' against the air is negligible compared to the force exerted by conservation momentum.

Of course conservation momentum is determined by how fast you throw the ball. If you just give it a little throw you will not move as far in the opposite direction as if you were to hurl it. Momentum is defined as mass times speed, so it is determined by how heavy the thing you're throwing is, and how fast you throw it. If you try this with a tennis ball it wouldn't work because a tennis ball just isn't heavy enough.

This is the principle of how rockets work, and can work in a vacuum.

To make it plain and simple. Rockets do not throw out medicine balls, they simply "burn" their fuel in a continuous burn. It doesn't splutter out like someone spitting out orange pips.

Quote from: pillow on February 19, 2013, 05:42:50 AM

Sceptimatic: You see to be very misinformed and have an odd way of looking at things. I will try to explain in a way where you can test this out for yourself.

Imagine you are on a small raft on some water, your feet are fixed to the raft, and you are carrying a medicine ball (or some other kind of reasonable weight).

There are no other forces, no waves, no wind etc. acting upon you. So there are no other influences.

You now hurl the medicine burl as hard as you can, to the left for example.

Surely you can understand as you do this you, on your raft, will move to the right. This occurs because of the conservation of momentum.


From what I can see, you seem to think that hurling the ball to the left would 'push' against the air and that is why you move. This is incorrect simply because of what would happen if you did the following:

The scenario is the same as above, but this time instead of the medicine ball (or other weight), you have a circular shape - the shape corresponds to the same shape as the medicine ball.

If you were to quickly thrust this flat shape out to the left you will not move to the right in anyway near the same manner as the above scenario. This is because the force exerted by 'pushing' against the air is negligible compared to the force exerted by conservation momentum.

Of course conservation momentum is determined by how fast you throw the ball. If you just give it a little throw you will not move as far in the opposite direction as if you were to hurl it. Momentum is defined as mass times speed, so it is determined by how heavy the thing you're throwing is, and how fast you throw it. If you try this with a tennis ball it wouldn't work because a tennis ball just isn't heavy enough.

This is the principle of how rockets work, and can work in a vacuum.

A more testable version would be to get a skateboard on a flat surface, rather than using a raft on water. It loses the directionality that you had with the raft, but it's more feasible.

Throw what you like, you get very little momentum doing that and is a lame way to prove how a rocket would work, yet this is the only lame solution that can be given for their rocket in a vacuum ruse.

I've always considered myself as the greatest artist of FET, but realize that it is time to step down from the throne to admire the new king. His work surpasses anything I have seen before in the art/science genre, and I look forward to following the work of this young aspiring painter in the future. A wizard with a brush, a seducer of physics, and a mainstay of our dear FET. Long live sceptimatic.

 My wife has asked me to paint the ceiling with stars and rockets and things like that but I've had to refuse her because I will not have rockets in my space. 

So is the cold air pushing the hot air into the rocket and creating thrust?

I've always considered myself as the greatest artist of FET, but realize that it is time to step down from the throne to admire the new king. His work surpasses anything I have seen before in the art/science genre, and I look forward to following the work of this young aspiring painter in the future. A wizard with a brush, a seducer of physics, and a mainstay of our dear FET. Long live sceptimatic.

Yea he's a real Da Vinci.

So is the cold air pushing the hot air into the rocket and creating thrust?

No, not quite like that. The best way to think of it, is like putting a big pressure washer against a trampoline and watching it push against the trampoline, where it will push it down a little, yet the trampoline will resist it.
With rockets spewing hot fuel out at pressure, it would be like the hot air expanding the air, or as in the trampoline, the impression becomes wider and deeper creating more mass of air.

Quote from: Manarq on February 19, 2013, 06:38:55 AM

So is the cold air pushing the hot air into the rocket and creating thrust?

No, not quite like that. The best way to think of it, is like putting a big pressure washer against a trampoline and watching it push against the trampoline, where it will push it down a little, yet the trampoline will resist it.
With rockets spewing hot fuel out at pressure, it would be like the hot air expanding the air, or as in the trampoline, the impression becomes wider and deeper creating more mass of air.

But in no way are you describing a method that would create thrust, merely resistance.

When will you understand that it has noting to do with the exhaust pushing against. some thing. It's just the mass accelerating out the back. That's why when rockets launch they become more efficient the higher they get.

Quote from: pillow on February 19, 2013, 05:42:50 AM

Sceptimatic: You see to be very misinformed and have an odd way of looking at things. I will try to explain in a way where you can test this out for yourself.

Imagine you are on a small raft on some water, your feet are fixed to the raft, and you are carrying a medicine ball (or some other kind of reasonable weight).

There are no other forces, no waves, no wind etc. acting upon you. So there are no other influences.

You now hurl the medicine burl as hard as you can, to the left for example.

Surely you can understand as you do this you, on your raft, will move to the right. This occurs because of the conservation of momentum.


From what I can see, you seem to think that hurling the ball to the left would 'push' against the air and that is why you move. This is incorrect simply because of what would happen if you did the following:

The scenario is the same as above, but this time instead of the medicine ball (or other weight), you have a circular shape - the shape corresponds to the same shape as the medicine ball.

If you were to quickly thrust this flat shape out to the left you will not move to the right in anyway near the same manner as the above scenario. This is because the force exerted by 'pushing' against the air is negligible compared to the force exerted by conservation momentum.

Of course conservation momentum is determined by how fast you throw the ball. If you just give it a little throw you will not move as far in the opposite direction as if you were to hurl it. Momentum is defined as mass times speed, so it is determined by how heavy the thing you're throwing is, and how fast you throw it. If you try this with a tennis ball it wouldn't work because a tennis ball just isn't heavy enough.

This is the principle of how rockets work, and can work in a vacuum.

To make it plain and simple. Rockets do not throw out medicine balls, they simply "burn" their fuel in a continuous burn. It doesn't splutter out like someone spitting out orange pips.

You need even more help than I thought.

Of course a rocket doesn't throw out medicine balls. I produced an example to help better explain the forces at work for you to understand, seeing as you seem to have no idea how rocket propulsion works.

In the case of a rocket it is the ejection of fuel that causes the change of momentum. The fuel is ignited such that the internal pressure increases and it throws itself out.

This equates to a change in momentum which must be counteracted by the rocket, and so the rocket moves in the opposite direction to the ejected fuel. The air outside has nothing to do with it.

Sceptimatic why dont you consider this.
This is pretty much the opposite of what you are suggesting. As instead of hot light air being shot into a cooler denser atmosphere. You have water as you know is very cold and very dense being expelled into air.
By your logic the water should just cut threw the air and the fire fighters shouldn't feel any back pressure. Same goes for water rockets.



This is another reason I love this sight. YOu can make silly drawings in msp and it can still be taken seriously to an extent.

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 19, 2013, 06:48:01 AM

Quote from: Manarq on February 19, 2013, 06:38:55 AM

So is the cold air pushing the hot air into the rocket and creating thrust?

No, not quite like that. The best way to think of it, is like putting a big pressure washer against a trampoline and watching it push against the trampoline, where it will push it down a little, yet the trampoline will resist it.
With rockets spewing hot fuel out at pressure, it would be like the hot air expanding the air, or as in the trampoline, the impression becomes wider and deeper creating more mass of air.

But in no way are you describing a method that would create thrust, merely resistance.

If it was all so easy to explain, there would be no discussion would they.

Who gains a better star:
1. A sprinter running from a standing start?
2. A runner starting from the blocks?

When will you understand that it has noting to do with the exhaust pushing against. some thing. It's just the mass accelerating out the back. That's why when rockets launch they become more efficient the higher they get.

They become more efficient because they are getting lighter and lighter as their fuel expends.

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 19, 2013, 06:34:24 AM

Quote from: pillow on February 19, 2013, 05:42:50 AM

Sceptimatic: You see to be very misinformed and have an odd way of looking at things. I will try to explain in a way where you can test this out for yourself.

Imagine you are on a small raft on some water, your feet are fixed to the raft, and you are carrying a medicine ball (or some other kind of reasonable weight).

There are no other forces, no waves, no wind etc. acting upon you. So there are no other influences.

You now hurl the medicine burl as hard as you can, to the left for example.

Surely you can understand as you do this you, on your raft, will move to the right. This occurs because of the conservation of momentum.


From what I can see, you seem to think that hurling the ball to the left would 'push' against the air and that is why you move. This is incorrect simply because of what would happen if you did the following:

The scenario is the same as above, but this time instead of the medicine ball (or other weight), you have a circular shape - the shape corresponds to the same shape as the medicine ball.

If you were to quickly thrust this flat shape out to the left you will not move to the right in anyway near the same manner as the above scenario. This is because the force exerted by 'pushing' against the air is negligible compared to the force exerted by conservation momentum.

Of course conservation momentum is determined by how fast you throw the ball. If you just give it a little throw you will not move as far in the opposite direction as if you were to hurl it. Momentum is defined as mass times speed, so it is determined by how heavy the thing you're throwing is, and how fast you throw it. If you try this with a tennis ball it wouldn't work because a tennis ball just isn't heavy enough.

This is the principle of how rockets work, and can work in a vacuum.

To make it plain and simple. Rockets do not throw out medicine balls, they simply "burn" their fuel in a continuous burn. It doesn't splutter out like someone spitting out orange pips.

You need even more help than I thought.

Of course a rocket doesn't throw out medicine balls. I produced an example to help better explain the forces at work for you to understand, seeing as you seem to have no idea how rocket propulsion works.

In the case of a rocket it is the ejection of fuel that causes the change of momentum. The fuel is ignited such that the internal pressure increases and it throws itself out.

This equates to a change in momentum which must be counteracted by the rocket, and so the rocket moves in the opposite direction to the ejected fuel. The air outside has nothing to do with it.

You believe that if you want to.

So you don't believe conservation of momentum is true?

So you don't believe conservation of momentum is true?

Yes I do believe it's true, it's just that Newtons law is getting used to portray this when it's not what it appears.

Care to expin what it appears to you then?

Care to expin what it appears to you then?

I've just explained what it appears to me.

I don't know how to quote pictures, but sceptimatic, answer this:
when the hot air "expands", you say the cold air push back against it. The key point here is that the cold air push against the hot air, not the rocket. In order for this scheme to work, the hot air would have to push against the rocket after getting pushed by the cold air. But we do see a column of hot air going downwards. How?
Also, about the firemen picture, what you wrote was completely irrelevant.

LOL holy shit!    I really hope you are just trying to troll me.

If you have ever washed your car with a pressure washer you know how the pressure of the water can act backwards on the nozzle. How does it do this?

Quote from: pillow on February 19, 2013, 06:58:52 AM

So you don't believe conservation of momentum is true?

Yes I do believe it's true, it's just that Newtons law is getting used to portray this when it's not what it appears.

Well if you cannot understand the point I made in my example, something you can test out yourself with no resources then maybe you should try giving it a go experimentally.

If you would like, I can explain with numbers and simple formula to explain how conservation of momentum allows a rocket to lift off and fly. I'll only do this if you actually care about understanding and learning more and aren't just trying to troll everyone. I see no point in wasting my time trying to help you understand something if you don't care.

Your call.

Scepti would you agree that a rocket can travel at super sonic speeds?

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 19, 2013, 07:09:14 AM

Quote from: pillow on February 19, 2013, 06:58:52 AM

So you don't believe conservation of momentum is true?

Yes I do believe it's true, it's just that Newtons law is getting used to portray this when it's not what it appears.

Well if you cannot understand the point I made in my example, something you can test out yourself with no resources then maybe you should try giving it a go experimentally.

If you would like, I can explain with numbers and simple formula to explain how conservation of momentum allows a rocket to lift off and fly. I'll only do this if you actually care about understanding and learning more and aren't just trying to troll everyone. I see no point in wasting my time trying to help you understand something if you don't care.

Your call.

Of course I'm interested, just do it simply. I can't stand things that are not simplified and are made to be purposely vague.
I will mull over what you are going to do and if it makes sense to me I'll say so.
Don;t just expect me to go along with it though, yet I won't discount it just for the sake of being a twat ok. I promise you that.

Scepti would you agree that a rocket can travel at super sonic speeds?

To be honest, I'm not sure. Seriously. Probably though.

Quote from: Manarq on February 19, 2013, 07:41:08 AM

Scepti would you agree that a rocket can travel at super sonic speeds?

To be honest, I'm not sure. Seriously. Probably though.

wouldn't the cold/hot air combination pushing the rocket therefore have to also be traveling at super sonic speeds?

Quote from: sceptimatic on February 19, 2013, 08:00:08 AM

Quote from: Manarq on February 19, 2013, 07:41:08 AM

Scepti would you agree that a rocket can travel at super sonic speeds?

To be honest, I'm not sure. Seriously. Probably though.

wouldn't the cold/hot air combination pushing the rocket therefore have to also be traveling at super sonic speeds?

Think of a jet.

Unbelievable. You have to be trolling now.