Why Ban the Burkha?

Orbis is that white armor you're wearing stuffy? It would be nice if you made your own arguments, instead of fearing for rooster's delicate sensibilities. She condescends to people on this forum all the time. She can dish it out, so it's only fair to assume she can take it.

Since Western feminist opinion isn't good enough, this is some good reading http://www.aei.org/article/society-and-culture/race-and-gender/international-not-all-womens-day/ 

http://www.aei.org/article/society-and-culture/race-and-gender/not-the-child-my-grandmother-wanted/

These articles are different than the discussion here. Feminism is okay when it's not being radical. My only qualm is for the western radicals who assume that choices women do make in other countries are forced upon them by men. I'm not suggesting "oh, that's just how they do things, let them throw acid in their faces and not have bathrooms in public buildings because they shouldn't be there anyway." I'm only saying women actually CHOOSE to wear the burkha in places where it's not legally required. Sometimes women CHOOSE to undergo female circumcision. And in China some women bound their own feet tighter so that they'd be smaller.
Helping to rid the world of gender inequalities and understanding cultural relativism when it comes to gender are two different things.

She condescends to people on this forum all the time.

what? i haven't been a part of any kind of discussion in a long time, i couldn't possibly condescend all the time. but space cow brings it out in me. you're just such a mega bitch whenever you disagree in a debate. and also ignorant.

#" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Michael Jackson - That's Ignorant

Who are these western radical feminists you are referring to? I think you've built yourself a strawfeminist to argue against. Especially since no one (besides Nimp) has suggested not allowing women to wear the burqa if they want to.

In many of these societies some of the women say they choose to wear a burqa (or whatever cover is customary), but do they say what happens to the women in their societies who choose not to? Part of the freedom to wear a burqa has to be the freedom not to wear one, don't you think? Otherwise it isn't really a choice.

BTW, there is a difference between radical feminists, and radfems. As usual, though, any type of feminist is going to be demonized.

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on January 03, 2013, 07:35:09 AM

She condescends to people on this forum all the time.

what? i haven't been a part of any kind of discussion in a long time, i couldn't possibly condescend all the time. but space cow brings it out in me. you're just such a mega bitch whenever you disagree in a debate. and also ignorant.

Awww, that's really adorable. U mad?

Who are these western radical feminists you are referring to? I think you've built yourself a strawfeminist to argue against. Especially since no one (besides Nimp) has suggested not allowing women to wear the burqa if they want to.

In many of these societies some of the women say they choose to wear a burqa (or whatever cover is customary), but do they say what happens to the women in their societies who choose not to? Part of the freedom to wear a burqa has to be the freedom not to wear one, don't you think? Otherwise it isn't really a choice.

BTW, there is a difference between radical feminists, and radfems. As usual, though, any type of feminist is going to be demonized.

I have a feminist friend who refuses to take classes from men, because she hates to see men in power.  She also thinks that rape is worse than genocide/murder. 

I know a number of people like her, and in Santa Cruz its not really demonized.

Who are these western radical feminists you are referring to? I think you've built yourself a strawfeminist to argue against. Especially since no one (besides Nimp) has suggested not allowing women to wear the burqa if they want to.

In many of these societies some of the women say they choose to wear a burqa (or whatever cover is customary), but do they say what happens to the women in their societies who choose not to? Part of the freedom to wear a burqa has to be the freedom not to wear one, don't you think? Otherwise it isn't really a choice.

BTW, there is a difference between radical feminists, and radfems. As usual, though, any type of feminist is going to be demonized.

In societies where they are free to choose nothing happens to the women who don't wear a burkha... Maybe they're judged by the conservatives but other than that, they're okay. But women in the US who do wear burkhas are harassed.

My argument was simply a reaction to you saying bullshit when lorddave said many women choose to wear the burkha outside of fanatically conservative countries. 

And no I'm not mad. I'm actually used to you being bitchy ever since I joined, it's just part of your personality that I've accepted. But the humor of your hypocritical condescension is not lost on me.

In societies where they are free to choose nothing happens to the women who don't wear a burkha...

Do you mean they are teased in school?  Young children tease each other about lots of things. 

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on January 03, 2013, 07:35:09 AM

Orbis is that white armor you're wearing stuffy? It would be nice if you made your own arguments, instead of fearing for rooster's delicate sensibilities. She condescends to people on this forum all the time. She can dish it out, so it's only fair to assume she can take it.

Since Western feminist opinion isn't good enough, this is some good reading http://www.aei.org/article/society-and-culture/race-and-gender/international-not-all-womens-day/ 

http://www.aei.org/article/society-and-culture/race-and-gender/not-the-child-my-grandmother-wanted/

These articles are different than the discussion here. Feminism is okay when it's not being radical. My only qualm is for the western radicals who assume that choices women do make in other countries are forced upon them by men. I'm not suggesting "oh, that's just how they do things, let them throw acid in their faces and not have bathrooms in public buildings because they shouldn't be there anyway." I'm only saying women actually CHOOSE to wear the burkha in places where it's not legally required. Sometimes women CHOOSE to undergo female circumcision. And in China some women bound their own feet tighter so that they'd be smaller.
Helping to rid the world of gender inequalities and understanding cultural relativism when it comes to gender are two different things.

In many countries these 'choices' aren't really choices. Just because something is allowed by law doesn't mean that it can't be discouraged in other ways. In countries where women are being discriminated so much that they have to marry to survive, and being circumcised is a necessity to get wed, it's not really a choice.

However, in that case there isn't much we can do about it except hope for a culture change.   

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on January 03, 2013, 11:37:36 AM

Who are these western radical feminists you are referring to? I think you've built yourself a strawfeminist to argue against. Especially since no one (besides Nimp) has suggested not allowing women to wear the burqa if they want to.

In many of these societies some of the women say they choose to wear a burqa (or whatever cover is customary), but do they say what happens to the women in their societies who choose not to? Part of the freedom to wear a burqa has to be the freedom not to wear one, don't you think? Otherwise it isn't really a choice.

BTW, there is a difference between radical feminists, and radfems. As usual, though, any type of feminist is going to be demonized.

In societies where they are free to choose nothing happens to the women who don't wear a burkha... Maybe they're judged by the conservatives but other than that, they're okay. But women in the US who do wear burkhas are harassed.

My argument was simply a reaction to you saying bullshit when lorddave said many women choose to wear the burkha outside of fanatically conservative countries. 

And no I'm not mad. I'm actually used to you being bitchy ever since I joined, it's just part of your personality that I've accepted. But the humor of your hypocritical condescension is not lost on me.

Which societies are you talking about, though? In the US women who wear Islamic coverings are harassed because the people harassing them are racist, usually. They're being harassed for being Muslim.

I never said "bullshit" to Lorddave for saying many women choose to wear the burqa outside fanatically conservative countries because he didn't make that argument.

You should read this thread over again. http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php/topic,55107.20.html#.UOYRv6zNksk

I have a feminist friend who refuses to take classes from men, because she hates to see men in power.  She also thinks that rape is worse than genocide/murder. 

I know a number of people like her, and in Santa Cruz its not really demonized.

Yeah, I know this one guy, and he's an asshole. All guys are assholes! Also, I've never seen anyone bother him for it, so therefore, something.


I think that's plenty of anecdotal nonsense for now.


Personally, I am against banning types of clothing. I even have doubts about whether or not it's okay to ban nudity. That's a trickier one. But I also see some fairly black & white use of the word "choose" in this thread, as though choices made without legal compulsion are therefore freely made. That is a gross oversimplification.


The French ban on the niqab strikes me as deeply problematic, for cultural as well as practical reasons. But so does much of the discourse opposing to the ban, which pretends that all choices are free choices, and therefore worthy of the same protection under law. But choosing between expressing oneself and being beaten is not a 'free' choice in any significant sense of that word.


The problem with this legislation is not that it prevents people from making certain choices, but that it prevents people from making choices that ought to be protected under law, as well as choices that should not have to be made.

Since it's painfully obvious nobody cares about the actual topic at hand, we should focus on this catfight situation instead.

I'm rooting for team rooster, SCG is very keen on taking a condescending stance in a debate. Rooster is just stubborn.

Whatever, girlfriend 

I agree with Wilmore about choice. A choice isn't a choice if it isn't freely made.  I don't want to tell anyone what they can or can't wear, and I wish women all over the world were able to freely make their own decisions, without fear.

and I wish women all over the world were able to freely make their own decisions, without fear.

That's a little sexist, don't you think?

But what about the menz?

Indeed.

As a man, I too would like to be free to wear a burkha.

As a man, I too would like to be free to wear a burkha.

Do whatever your heart desires. Burkha it up.

screw the burkha. i want one of these:

You'll poke someone's eye out!