Why Ban the Burkha?

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rooster

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #60 on: January 01, 2013, 11:28:41 AM »
It's not different from male circumcision. Both are unnecessary, both are done to children who can't freely choose. Sometimes it is done in a sanitary environment, most of the time it isn't. Some girls are completely mutilated having both their clitoris and labia hacked off and their legs bound together until they stop bleeding, and most of their vagina sewn shut.... too graphic? There are horror stories for male circumcision as well, rabbis who put their mouths on the boy's penis, and give them herpes, doctors who make mistakes and cut off the penis.

And for what? There are times when male circumcision is medically necessary, but the vast majority of the time it isn't. I don't know if a female circumcision is ever medically necessary, I suppose there may be some cases.  Why would any god want people to cut off parts of their bodies?
Yes, I know the horror stories but they are the exception. You can make it seem as ghastly as you want to, but they do it for reasons they believe in and again, outsiders are not really in a position to make judgments. Footbinding in China was something else only the women did to each other and something a lot of girls wanted to participate in but they stopped the practice on their own accord which is how cultural traditions should be handled. And I believe that FGM is not as common as it once was so it might be headed in that direction anyway.

What judgements am I making?

Judgements such as kids being "capable of making the decision" to have their genitals carved out.
There are cases where the adolescents chose to undergo the procedure. I don't see how that is me making a judgment, only stating a fact that has indeed occurred.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 11:31:48 AM by rooster »

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #61 on: January 01, 2013, 12:09:22 PM »
You actually think the Chinese practice of foot binding died out without any outside interference? You should look up the London Missionary Society.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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rooster

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #62 on: January 01, 2013, 12:41:50 PM »
"they are" shouldn't be taken as an all encompassing statement, you shouldn't assume I'm that naive. But in the cases where women and girls are making the choice, why would you ban that for them?

There was outsider "influence" with the ending of foot binding, but it was ultimately the choice of the Chinese. We're already putting pressure on the ending of female circumcision, but the choice is for the specific country to make. Hospitals and schools are great ways to give help and influence to cultures without forcing them to change.

This has gotten a bit off track. My only goal was to point out that these cultural ideas of beauty and gender shouldn't necessarily be viewed as male domination or "wrong". Banning something just because we understand it as such is just western arrogance and superiority complex rearing its ugly head. I would be just as upset if any foreigner came to America and forced a ban on bikinis, male circumcision, and pornography just because they thought they knew better.
And  Oscar, why would you ask about reformers within the culture? Of course I have no problem with that. I believe anyone within the culture should be able to decide the best course of action whether it's for or against any practice.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 12:44:37 PM by rooster »

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #63 on: January 01, 2013, 01:00:18 PM »
"they are" shouldn't be taken as an all encompassing statement, you shouldn't assume I'm that naive. But in the cases where women and girls are making the choice, why would you ban that for them?

There was outsider "influence" with the ending of foot binding, but it was ultimately the choice of the Chinese. We're already putting pressure on the ending of female circumcision, but the choice is for the specific country to make. Hospitals and schools are great ways to give help and influence to cultures without forcing them to change.

This has gotten a bit off track. My only goal was to point out that these cultural ideas of beauty and gender shouldn't necessarily be viewed as male domination or "wrong". Banning something just because we understand it as such is just western arrogance and superiority complex rearing its ugly head. I would advocate war if any foreigner came to America and forced a ban on bikinis, male circumcision, and pornography just because they thought they knew better.
And  Oscar, why would you ask about reformers within the culture? Of course I have no problem with that. I believe anyone within the culture should be able to decide the best course of action whether it's for or against any practice.

Yeah i am still with rooster.  You guys seem to be picking apart her statement, when its really meant to be a more general idea.  We as outsiders should express concern when some is being mutilated, but if someone chooses to have an operation preformed on them, its another story.  I think both sides would agree that at least a little of both is going on.

We as foriegners need to do some serious thinking before we jump on the " we should ban burkhas bandwagon", because its not our culture and we need to accept certain differences.

Also, I wholeheartedly agree than foreigners attempting to ban Bikinis would be something that would push me towards a warpath.  I am glad to see that there is another hawk among us.

Also sorry about editing your quote.

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rooster

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #64 on: January 01, 2013, 06:23:18 PM »
I was only recognizing the "pro" side because I wanted to make the point that forcing any ban on a culture's dress or practice even for feminist ideology would be counter productive to true feminism (letting them choose for themselves).

You could call education indoctrination, I can certainly understand that. But it would at least broaden some horizons and help educate people in the choices they make. Now if women want to continue female circumcision I would love for hospitals to allow the procedure so that at least it can be safe and clean similar to male circumcision.

Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #65 on: January 01, 2013, 06:28:13 PM »
safe and clean?

not always.

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The New York City Board of Health passed a regulation on Thursday that will require consent from parents before an infant can have a form of Jewish ritual circumcision, prevalent in parts of the ultra-Orthodox community, in which the circumciser uses his mouth to remove blood from the incision.  . . .

Infectious disease experts widely agree that the oral contact, known in Hebrew as metzitzah bípeh, creates a risk of transmission of herpes that can be deadly to infants, because of their underdeveloped immune systems. Between 2004 and 2011, the city learned of 11 herpes infections it said were most likely caused by the practice. Two of those babies died; at least two others suffered brain damage.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/14/nyregion/health-board-votes-to-regulate-jewish-circumcision-ritual.html?_r=0
true wisdom is always concise

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #66 on: January 01, 2013, 06:43:09 PM »
So...prior to this regulation, they didn't need parental consent?

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rooster

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #67 on: January 01, 2013, 07:10:45 PM »
safe and clean?

not always.

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The New York City Board of Health passed a regulation on Thursday that will require consent from parents before an infant can have a form of Jewish ritual circumcision, prevalent in parts of the ultra-Orthodox community, in which the circumciser uses his mouth to remove blood from the incision.  . . .

Infectious disease experts widely agree that the oral contact, known in Hebrew as metzitzah bípeh, creates a risk of transmission of herpes that can be deadly to infants, because of their underdeveloped immune systems. Between 2004 and 2011, the city learned of 11 herpes infections it said were most likely caused by the practice. Two of those babies died; at least two others suffered brain damage.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/14/nyregion/health-board-votes-to-regulate-jewish-circumcision-ritual.html?_r=0
I'm not sure these uber othordox procedures take place in a hospital...

Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #68 on: January 01, 2013, 07:18:53 PM »
So...prior to this regulation, they didn't need parental consent?

no, the circumcision is always with consent. the new york board of health wanted the mohels to discuss the oral suction procedure with the parents and inform them of the risks of hepatitis. i'm not sure where the "consent" wording came from.

the mohels told them to stick it, i believe, as they weren't interested in distributing NYCBOH literature as part of their services.
true wisdom is always concise

Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #69 on: January 01, 2013, 07:35:35 PM »
I'm not sure these uber othordox procedures take place in a hospital...

it's not a medical procedure, rooster.

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It is customary for the brit to be held in a synagogue, but it can also be held at home or any other suitable location. The brit is performed on the eighth day from the baby's birth, taking into consideration that according to the Jewish calendar, the day begins at the sunset of the day before. If the baby is born on Sunday before sunset, the Brit will be held the following Sunday. However, if the baby is born on Sunday night after sunset, the Brit is on the following Monday. The brit takes place on the eighth day following birth even if that day is Shabbat or a holiday. A brit is traditionally performed in the morning, but it may be performed any time during daylight hours. [2]

hospital circumcision is gaining popularity in muslim countries like malaysia, in the same way that punishing a thief by cutting off his right hand is now sometimes done under hospital conditions as well, at least in nigeria. other places are more casual.
true wisdom is always concise

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rooster

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #70 on: January 01, 2013, 11:17:31 PM »
I'm not sure what your point is...

Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #71 on: January 02, 2013, 06:18:30 AM »
i'm sorry, i'm not trying to be cryptic.

traditional circumcision of both boys and girls is often done in very primitive conditions, sometimes extremely so:



the ritual nature of the practice may get in the way of the sterile anaesthetized process that i think you're proposing.
true wisdom is always concise

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Eddy Baby

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #72 on: January 02, 2013, 06:43:42 AM »
Whoops, Rooster is a cultural relativist.

Sorry, but you can't let things happen that are against people's human rights simply because it is 'their culture'. What about burning young women's face with acid? Honour killings? It's just not a sound viewpoint.

That aside, of course don't ban the burkha, as it is banning something from an entirely religious perspective. What if I really liked wearing clown masks? Could I be arrested for that? What if I only went outside to go to or from a fancy dress party?

That's not illegal, so we can conclude that the reason behind banning the burkha is not face coverage, but instead cultural bias.

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rooster

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #73 on: January 02, 2013, 07:34:20 AM »
Whoops, Rooster is a cultural relativist.

Sorry, but you can't let things happen that are against people's human rights simply because it is 'their culture'. What about burning young women's face with acid? Honour killings? It's just not a sound viewpoint.

That aside, of course don't ban the burkha, as it is banning something from an entirely religious perspective. What if I really liked wearing clown masks? Could I be arrested for that? What if I only went outside to go to or from a fancy dress party?

That's not illegal, so we can conclude that the reason behind banning the burkha is not face coverage, but instead cultural bias.
But what I'm pointing out are cases where the girls are willing to participate. I don't think anyone wants acid thrown in their face or to be murdered. And if the child is too young then it's not too different than male circumcision. So this discussion is a bit different than a human rights issue. Of course I don't like the idea of any adolescent being forced into mutilation.

And I have no idea how many people actually participate in traditional male circumcision outside hospitals in the US. Most American male infants have the foreskin removed while still at the hospital which is notably safer and cleaner.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #74 on: January 02, 2013, 08:59:02 AM »
No one was suggesting an army of feminazis go to the middle east to ban the burqa. You've posted as if expressing an opinion about burqas is somehow infringing on someone's right to wear one. The women who wear them in the US are free to do so, they are also free to take them off. If one of these women are attacked for not being dressed "properly", then their attacker has broken the law and if caught, punished. In some of these other places in the world, the attackers aren't punished, therefore the women do not really have a free choice.

Circumcision is a human rights issue. Are children not human?
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Beorn

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #75 on: January 02, 2013, 09:02:45 AM »
Circumcision is a human rights issue. Are children not human?

They are monsters
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Only one thing can save our future. Give Thork a BanHammer for Th*rksakes!

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Eddy Baby

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #76 on: January 02, 2013, 10:35:04 AM »
Sorry, I was talking about the topic of the thread.

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rooster

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #77 on: January 02, 2013, 10:46:09 AM »
Sorry, I was talking about the topic of the thread.
I was too at first.  :(

Space Cowgirl thought it was bullshit that Muslim women choose to wear the burkha (in countries where it's not strictly required). Then I said something to the effect that women choose to do a lot of things that seem unpleasant and we falsely assume it's because of a male dominated society. Then yeah

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #78 on: January 02, 2013, 11:10:37 AM »
No one was suggesting an army of feminazis go to the middle east to ban the burqa. You've posted as if expressing an opinion about burqas is somehow infringing on someone's right to wear one. The women who wear them in the US are free to do so, they are also free to take them off. If one of these women are attacked for not being dressed "properly", then their attacker has broken the law and if caught, punished. In some of these other places in the world, the attackers aren't punished, therefore the women do not really have a free choice.

Circumcision is a human rights issue. Are children not human?

Actually the post that you initially responded to was in response to that exact question, banning the burkha.  Then you and oscar moved in and in my opinion isolated phrases that could have been taken as more extreme than they really were.

I am pretty sure that everyone agrees that children should not be forced into having this done to them, women should be allowed to wear burkhas if they want, and if they choose to do so we should not judge them for it.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #79 on: January 02, 2013, 12:09:51 PM »
Actually the post I initially responded to was Lorddave's. Then Oscar and I responded to other posts made in the thread, which is how threads work.  Neither of us paid much attention to the OP because he is a Nimp, and even he didn't suggest sending in an army of feminazis. He asked why feminists aren't "up in arms" over it. I don't know why feminists aren't "up in arms" over it to his satisfaction, but it is a topic of concern for feminists in countries where wearing a burqa, or some type of cover, is a forced choice. There are many countries where it isn't illegal for a woman to go about uncovered, but if they do they are attacked.

Who has judged them for choosing to wear a burqa?
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #80 on: January 02, 2013, 12:56:15 PM »

Who has judged them for choosing to wear a burqa?

I did not say that your initial post was not in response to Lorddave.  "Actually the post that you initially responded to was in response to that exact question, banning the burkha"

Nimp.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 01:00:25 PM by OrbisNonSufficit »

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #81 on: January 02, 2013, 02:38:04 PM »
And not even Lorddave responded to the question of banning the burqa, are you mad at him too?

Also, I'd like you to expand on the notion that Oscar and I "moved in and in my opinion isolated phrases that could have been taken as more extreme than they really were" if you can.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #82 on: January 02, 2013, 03:48:04 PM »
And not even Lorddave responded to the question of banning the burqa, are you mad at him too?

Also, I'd like you to expand on the notion that Oscar and I "moved in and in my opinion isolated phrases that could have been taken as more extreme than they really were" if you can.

I am not mad at anyone, not sure why you think that I am...

I guess the best way for me to address your second point would be for me to ask you what you think Rooster is trying to say, as opposed to what she has said.

To me, this is what Rooster is saying,

1.)  Many women wear burkhas, even in nations where it is mandated, by choice.  They do this for a multitude of reasons, including a desire to not be viewed as an sexual object and instead be appreciated for who they are on the inside.  Now, I am not claiming to agree with this point, But I have not looked for evidence that can disprove or prove this claim, nor has any evidence been presented in this thread.

2.)  We should not tell women in foreign countries not to wear burkhas, or for what reasons they should not wear burkhas.

3.)  Female genital mutilation, or circumcision, is not a good thing when it is done to children who cannot consent.  Men in these cultures are often not pro circumcision for their spouse, and that it is perpetuated by the women in these cultures in many cases.

4.)  We should not stop or judge them for performing the act on consenting individuals.

Now if Rooster feels that I have misrepresented her position, then by all means she should speak up.  I hate it when people talk for me only to express something in a manner that i did not intend.  However, when I say something, usually a single sentence, that i did not full think through, or poorly chose my words, i do appreciate it when people give me the doubt rather than jump at my throat.  I don't think that you (SCG) in this case went for the jugular, but Oscar was kind of a dick.

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You are indeed mixing your own value judgements with a rather clumsy conception of cultural relativism. The result is quite disturbing. I shudder to think what this "course" of yours must have been like.

See this is just insulting Rooster for no real apparent reason.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #83 on: January 02, 2013, 04:28:29 PM »

1) I'm sure there are women who wear burqas by choice, but if a burqa is mandated either by law or custom, then it is a forced choice. If you haven't bothered to research the topic, why are you bothering with it? There is tons of information on the internet.

2) No one suggested telling women what they can or can't wear (besides Nimp). What difference does it make if they are in a "foreign country" though? I have no control over the laws or practices in another country, we're just having a discussion here.

3) Okay, that was a garbled bunch of nonsense, but yes, we understood rooster's post.

4) Who is trying to stop consenting adults from mutilating their own bodies? Also, people judge, all the time. I think you are judging when you say we shouldn't judge.

If you hate it so much when people talk for you, why do you feel the need to talk for rooster? Her words are still here for anyone to read over. Oscar wasn't particularly harsh with rooster, do you want him to treat her like a fucking baby? Like she's too dumb or delicate to defend herself? I don't treat her as if she is too dumb to defend her own ideas, and I think it's rather insulting that you do. When I disagree with something she's posted I treat her the same as I would anyone else.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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rooster

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #84 on: January 02, 2013, 05:24:51 PM »
No, Oscar was kind of a dick. And there are ways to go about a discussion without being a dick or treating someone like a dumb baby.

I don't mind Orbis actually understanding the points I made. Why would that bother me? Ethnocentrism bothers me and it bothers me when westerners think our way of living is superior to other cultures. Dat's all.

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #85 on: January 02, 2013, 05:25:35 PM »
1) I'm sure there are women who wear burqas by choice, but if a burqa is mandated either by law or custom, then it is a forced choice. If you haven't bothered to research the topic, why are you bothering with it? There is tons of information on the internet.
Oh I agree, I would not vote to mandate the wearing of burkhas.  As to why I am bothering with it, I just think its nice to know you are not alone on a particular side.

2) No one suggested telling women what they can or can't wear (besides Nimp). What difference does it make if they are in a "foreign country" though? I have no control over the laws or practices in another country, we're just having a discussion here.
I guess being in a foreign country makes no difference, its just important to consider the different cultures involved.

4) Who is trying to stop consenting adults from mutilating their own bodies? Also, people judge, all the time. I think you are judging when you say we shouldn't judge.
That is true, its a judgement to say that we should not judge.  But I feel its the one judgement we should all make.

If you hate it so much when people talk for you, why do you feel the need to talk for rooster? Her words are still here for anyone to read over. Oscar wasn't particularly harsh with rooster, do you want him to treat her like a fucking baby? Like she's too dumb or delicate to defend herself? I don't treat her as if she is too dumb to defend her own ideas, and I think it's rather insulting that you do. When I disagree with something she's posted I treat her the same as I would anyone else.

I guess we just disagree as to what level of courtesy we should offer fellow posters.  As for why I felt a need to talk for rooster, I was not trying to.  I was simply trying to reiterate what she said in a different, you know, more garbled bunch of nonsense way.

I try to read out loud and imagine saying the things i post as of late, to try to avoid the things Thork described about the way that I come off.  When I read Oscar's out loud, I felt like a dick.

I am not under the impression that she can't defend herself, or is too delicate to hear these words, but its always nice in my opinion to have someone stand at your side.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 05:28:11 PM by OrbisNonSufficit »

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #86 on: January 02, 2013, 09:32:15 PM »
Yeah, yeah, but you'll just come off as another ignorant ethnocentric American.

Sorry, but how is this supposed to be taken as anything but insulting?

No, Oscar was kind of a dick. And there are ways to go about a discussion without being a dick or treating someone like a dumb baby.

Irony overload. You've been callously condescending since you started posting in this thread and I don't believe your rudeness was entirely unintentional. You were intellectually dishonest and I didn't particularly appreciate your less-than-subtle insinuations either. Your self-satisfied patronization was rendered fair game when it became increasingly apparent that you were largely ignorant of the subjects you were lecturing us on. My "insults" consisted of a couple tame, hyperbolic jabs. Quite frankly, your attitude (which you are still unapologetic about) warrants a lot worse.

You got off pretty easy in my opinion.

Oh grow a pair Oscar.  The first responses by SCG and you to rooster involved, and I quote, "bullshit" and "um.. what?"

To think that anyone would respond respectfully after that is well, a bit odd.

Neither of you even waited to hear her out before being pretty harsh.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 09:41:02 PM by OrbisNonSufficit »

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rooster

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #87 on: January 03, 2013, 12:13:02 AM »
Intellectually dishonest? I don't even know what you're talking about. I offered a different perspective of these situations that I'm aware of from textbook readings. I don't see how that's dishonesty.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #88 on: January 03, 2013, 07:35:09 AM »
Orbis is that white armor you're wearing stuffy? It would be nice if you made your own arguments, instead of fearing for rooster's delicate sensibilities. She condescends to people on this forum all the time. She can dish it out, so it's only fair to assume she can take it.

Since Western feminist opinion isn't good enough, this is some good reading http://www.aei.org/article/society-and-culture/race-and-gender/international-not-all-womens-day/ 

http://www.aei.org/article/society-and-culture/race-and-gender/not-the-child-my-grandmother-wanted/
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Why Ban the Burkha?
« Reply #89 on: January 03, 2013, 10:05:58 AM »
Orbis is that white armor you're wearing stuffy? It would be nice if you made your own arguments, instead of fearing for rooster's delicate sensibilities. She condescends to people on this forum all the time. She can dish it out, so it's only fair to assume she can take it.

Since Western feminist opinion isn't good enough, this is some good reading http://www.aei.org/article/society-and-culture/race-and-gender/international-not-all-womens-day/ 

http://www.aei.org/article/society-and-culture/race-and-gender/not-the-child-my-grandmother-wanted/

Very, its heavy too.  But we all have our burdens.