Converting to Catholicism

So the Westborough Baptist Church are True Christians, then?

Your definition would seem to exclude Catholics and Orthodox churches and few others under the umbrella of Protestantism.

Chris, that is partly my point.  I am a Christian.  I don't call myself Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist,  Latter Day Saints, Mormon, any of that nonsense.  And while I would consider most of those closer to Christianity than others they all call themselves Christian.  Some I wouldn't go so far as to say that they have split off from Christianity like Catholicism has, some are close.

If there was a label I could attach to myself, I once heard one of my mentors call himself a purpose driven Christian, but I haven't looked into it enough to lay the label on myself.

So the Westborough Baptist Church are True Christians, then?

Your definition would seem to exclude Catholics and Orthodox churches and few others under the umbrella of Protestantism.

Salvation is achieved by having Christ in your heart. Whether you are in a catholic or protestant church matters not. However I believe the Catholic church would try to lead some astray, also some protestant churches. Jesus concern is with each persons heart, not which church and rules you follow. Each person must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling, and be forgiven of sin in Jesus.

Chris, that is partly my point.  I am a Christian.  I don't call myself Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist,  Latter Day Saints, Mormon, any of that nonsense.  And while I would consider most of those closer to Christianity than others they all call themselves Christian.  Some I wouldn't go so far as to say that they have split off from Christianity like Catholicism has, some are close.

If there was a label I could attach to myself, I once heard one of my mentors call himself a purpose driven Christian, but I haven't looked into it enough to lay the label on myself.

They're all Christians too. WBC might be shitty Christians (and there's plenty of them around), but they still fall under the Christian label.

Honestly, I don't see the point in telling people they're not part of your super special group, especially when that group emphasizes love and inclusion. Let God decide whether they're Christians or not and stop trying to break definitions out of some sort of self righteous dislike for other sects.

There's a difference between the noun, Christian, and the adjective, Christian. The WBC is not Christian, but it's Christian.

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on December 18, 2012, 07:19:48 AM

So the Westborough Baptist Church are True Christians, then?

Your definition would seem to exclude Catholics and Orthodox churches and few others under the umbrella of Protestantism.

Salvation is achieved by having Christ in your heart. Whether you are in a catholic or protestant church matters not. However I believe the Catholic church would try to lead some astray, also some protestant churches. Jesus concern is with each persons heart, not which church and rules you follow. Each person must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling, and be forgiven of sin in Jesus.

And, according to James, faith without works, is dead.  I always wondered why Christians focus more on faith than deeds.

Quote from: hoppy on December 18, 2012, 11:00:01 AM

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on December 18, 2012, 07:19:48 AM

So the Westborough Baptist Church are True Christians, then?

Your definition would seem to exclude Catholics and Orthodox churches and few others under the umbrella of Protestantism.

Salvation is achieved by having Christ in your heart. Whether you are in a catholic or protestant church matters not. However I believe the Catholic church would try to lead some astray, also some protestant churches. Jesus concern is with each persons heart, not which church and rules you follow. Each person must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling, and be forgiven of sin in Jesus.

And, according to James, faith without works, is dead.  I always wondered why Christians focus more on faith than deeds.

What you say is very true. If you do works without Christ in your heart your works may be done in vain. If you have the faith of Christ, you will do the works in faith.

Read the fucking thread. Muslims also see Christ as an important prophet, but not the Son of God. How many times does this distinction have to be made?

Do Satanists believe otherwise? Genuinely curious. I know Satanists believe broadly in the God of the Christian tradition, but I don't know if that extends to Jesus' status as the son of God.

Quote from: Pongo on December 16, 2012, 01:19:40 PM

People who follow Satanism believe in Christ. Are they Christians too?

Quote

They follow Christ and can point to the scriptures for their beliefs.

Believe != Follow

lrn2readingcomprehension.

The problem with this argument is that by introducing it, you legitimise the arguments of Wardogg and babs. If they believe that Catholics do not follow the teachings of Christ, then by the above argument, they are entitled to claim that Catholics are not Christians.


On the other hand, if the believe/follow distinction is removed, Satanists do kind of end up being Christians (maybe).


I don't think you're going to get an ironclad definition out of such a nebulous load of nonsense, but perhaps anyone who 'believes in Christ and claims to follow his teachings as described in the New Testament' is a suitably qualified solution to the above problem.

Quote from: Wakka Wakka on December 18, 2012, 01:37:51 PM

Quote from: hoppy on December 18, 2012, 11:00:01 AM

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on December 18, 2012, 07:19:48 AM

So the Westborough Baptist Church are True Christians, then?

Your definition would seem to exclude Catholics and Orthodox churches and few others under the umbrella of Protestantism.

Salvation is achieved by having Christ in your heart. Whether you are in a catholic or protestant church matters not. However I believe the Catholic church would try to lead some astray, also some protestant churches. Jesus concern is with each persons heart, not which church and rules you follow. Each person must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling, and be forgiven of sin in Jesus.

And, according to James, faith without works, is dead.  I always wondered why Christians focus more on faith than deeds.

What you say is very true. If you do works without Christ in your heart your works may be done in vain. If you have the faith of Christ, you will do the works in faith.

Would killing others with Christ in your heart be works in faith?

Quote from: hoppy on December 18, 2012, 01:48:42 PM

Quote from: Wakka Wakka on December 18, 2012, 01:37:51 PM

Quote from: hoppy on December 18, 2012, 11:00:01 AM

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on December 18, 2012, 07:19:48 AM

So the Westborough Baptist Church are True Christians, then?

Your definition would seem to exclude Catholics and Orthodox churches and few others under the umbrella of Protestantism.

Salvation is achieved by having Christ in your heart. Whether you are in a catholic or protestant church matters not. However I believe the Catholic church would try to lead some astray, also some protestant churches. Jesus concern is with each persons heart, not which church and rules you follow. Each person must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling, and be forgiven of sin in Jesus.

And, according to James, faith without works, is dead.  I always wondered why Christians focus more on faith than deeds.

What you say is very true. If you do works without Christ in your heart your works may be done in vain. If you have the faith of Christ, you will do the works in faith.

Would killing others with Christ in your heart be works in faith?

To me it seem the answer is no. Except self defense, or defending others maybe. Although in the Bible there are times when God sends out believers in armies to kill and destroy.

The Satanists could be the most Christian of them all.

Quote from: Vindictus on December 16, 2012, 02:02:19 PM

Read the fucking thread. Muslims also see Christ as an important prophet, but not the Son of God. How many times does this distinction have to be made?

Do Satanists believe otherwise? Genuinely curious. I know Satanists believe broadly in the God of the Christian tradition, but I don't know if that extends to Jesus' status as the son of God.

That was an example, showing how Muslims are similar. Satanists are a very diverse group, and I've met people that call themselves Satanists but believe in varying things, so I'm not sure what set of beliefs people are referring to when mentioning Satanism. I doubt most Satanists follow (or intend to) Christs' example and view him as the son of God, things that typically qualify someone as a Christian.

Chris, that is partly my point.  I am a Christian.  I don't call myself Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist,  Latter Day Saints, Mormon, any of that nonsense.  And while I would consider most of those closer to Christianity than others they all call themselves Christian.  Some I wouldn't go so far as to say that they have split off from Christianity like Catholicism has, some are close.

If there was a label I could attach to myself, I once heard one of my mentors call himself a purpose driven Christian, but I haven't looked into it enough to lay the label on myself.

Actually, the rest of Christianity split from Catholicism

Salvation is achieved by having Christ in your heart. Whether you are in a catholic or protestant church matters not. However I believe the Catholic church would try to lead some astray, also some protestant churches. Jesus concern is with each persons heart, not which church and rules you follow. Each person must work out his own salvation with fear and trembling, and be forgiven of sin in Jesus.

If that is the case then nobody but God knows whether someone is Xian or not. When people like WD declare a person or group not to be Christian is overstepping their mark. They no more know whether someone is Xian 'in their heart' than I do.

I judge no man.  But I can know when a religion has strayed from the bible.

I judge no man.

lol

But I can know when a religion has strayed from the bible.

Bollocks do you. you know when it's strayed from your interpretation of the Bible.

Bollocks do you. you know when it's strayed from your interpretation of the Bible.

How hard is this for you to comprehend?  My interpretation is the Christian interpretation.  Any other interpretation would not be a Christian interpretation.  IE Catholic interpretation.

I understand completely that you think your interpretation is the correct interpretation, if you didn't then you wouldn't believe it.

However, there are other Christians who believe differently to you who would also confidently proclaim that: "Any other interpretation would not be a Christian interpretation. "

Take a step back, Wardogg, and you'll see why what you're saying is ridiculous to anyone who isn't you.

The whole of religion could be summed up in this argument.  What makes Christians right and not Muslims?  I know what you are saying but in the context of Christians following a certain book the argument cannot be made that Catholics follow the same book.  They may say that they do, but it is backed up by nothing more than their own belief.

The whole of religion could be summed up in this argument.  What makes Christians right and not Muslims?  I know what you are saying but in the context of Christians following a certain book the argument cannot be made that Catholics follow the same book.  They may say that they do, but it is backed up by nothing more than their own belief.

I posted you passages which backed up their belief. the fact is that you just happen to lend greater weight to other passages. They interpret the language used in the same passages differently.

Nowhere did that passage mention priests.  According to that I can confess to you.  Which is actually part of the Christian belief.  Talking about your sins/stuggles to one and other. 

If you read the rest of the passage, it's talking about the elders in the church, who were the priests at the time, so, yes it does.

On another issue: Transsubstantiation.

I bet that you don't believe that the bread and wine literally become the body of Christ, do you?

If not, Catholics would argue that you're not being biblical when you interpret it metaphorically as Jesus said "Take, drink this IS my blood, shed for you" not, "Take, drink this wine, which symbolically represents my blood, which is given for you."

Never heard of it.  After a quick read on Wiki and another site, if I understand it right, the wine turns to blood but the human doesnt notice as it still appears to be wine to him? 

Odd, but not against anything biblical I know of.

Never heard of it.  After a quick read on Wiki and another site, if I understand it right, the wine turns to blood but the human doesnt notice as it still appears to be wine to him? 

Odd, but not against anything biblical I know of.

You've never heard of one of the most important Catholic beliefs and yet you feel qualified to dismiss the religion as 'unChristian'

Perhaps it's time to admit you don't know enough to know whether they're Christian. but perhaps if they're been studying the Bible for 2,000 years they might have a decent idea about what's in it?

Their actions speak for themselves.  It's not just my assessment either. 

You're referring to the actions of the people in power, aren't you? I don't think anyone would disagree that the Catholic Church hierarchy behaves in an unchristian manner, but to deny that the everyday believer isn't a real Christian is something else.

Judging is not supposed to be the business of Christian. Judge not that ye be not judged.

Their actions speak for themselves.  It's not just my assessment either.

Actions like being one of the biggest aid providers on the planet? Preaching messages against abortion, adultery, homosexuality. All things I'd expect from a Christian church to be honest.

Preaching messages against abortion, adultery, homosexuality.

How, in your mind, are these good things?

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on December 19, 2012, 09:37:36 AM

Preaching messages against abortion, adultery, homosexuality.

How, in your mind, are these good things?

I never said they were. I said they were Christian things.

Or rather, things which other Christian sects get up to.