Why are the surfaces of lakes curved ?

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Olivier

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Why are the surfaces of lakes curved ?
« on: November 09, 2012, 03:33:46 PM »
I live by a lake (Lake Neuchâtel, Swizerland) which is about 38 km long. There are passenger boats that allow you to travel on the lake, from one city to another. There's an easy experiment everyone can do - and for those living far away, it can be done on any lake of the same size of bigger.

What you need is :
- clear weather,
- calm water, no big waves,
- binoculars.
Take a boat trip from one side to the other of the lake, make sure it's at least 30km away or so, and while you're on the boat, use your binoculars and observe the other side. While the boat approaches its destination, you will see buildings, trees, maybe hills, that at 1st were invisible, slowly appear from below the horizon. You will see just the tip of that bulding "emerging" just right over the waterline, then you will see it half and finally, you will see it completely.

Repeat the experience on your way back, if the conditions didn't change you will make the same observations.

This can mean only 1 thing : the surface of the lake is not flat, but slightly curved.

Now i'd like to know how the liquid surface of a lake can be curved in a FET.

And no it's nothing to do with superficial tension or whatsoever, otherwise boats with their engine off would rather quickly slide towards the shore due to the slope and lack of friction.

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Nolhekh

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Re: Why are the surfaces of lakes curved ?
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2012, 04:09:15 PM »
A really convincing experiment you could do is look across the lake from different altitudes, and using the same magnification, show that buildings are slowly being restored.  FEers will claim your changing distance is causing the buildings' visibilities to be restored, so change altitude instead, and keep distance constant.

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Olivier

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Re: Why are the surfaces of lakes curved ?
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2012, 04:25:00 PM »
A really convincing experiment you could do is look across the lake from different altitudes, and using the same magnification, show that buildings are slowly being restored.  FEers will claim your changing distance is causing the buildings' visibilities to be restored, so change altitude instead, and keep distance constant.

They won't claim about building's visibility being restored, since objects at the same distance or further but situated slightly higher in altitude will be fully visible from the beginning of the experiment.
But your variant of the experiment works too, you just miss the cool boat trip!

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29silhouette

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Re: Why are the surfaces of lakes curved ?
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2012, 07:21:04 PM »
I did the experiment earlier this year.  Everything got closer to the horizon just as expected in the low elevation picture, but instead of the shoreline objects disappearing, they took on a compressed appearance due to the conditions favoring refraction over that distance.

Left image is about 18-20 feet elevation, right is about 6-8 inches elevation.  Bridges are about 9 miles (there are actually two side by side) and about 12 miles to the opposite shore.  3x optical camera zoom through a spotting scope set to 15x.  Did some at 30x, 60x, and 96x too. 

« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 09:52:54 AM by 29silhouette »

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Olivier

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Re: Why are the surfaces of lakes curved ?
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2012, 12:35:15 AM »
I did the experiment earlier this year.  Everything got closer to the horizon just as expected in the low elevation picture, but instead of the shoreline objects disappearing, they took on a compressed appearance due to the conditions favoring refraction over that distance.

Left image is about 18-20 feet elevation, right is about 6-8 inches elevation.  Bridges are about 9 miles (there are actually two side by side) and about 12 miles to the opposite shore.  3x optical camera zoom through a spotting scope set to 15x.  Did some at 30x, 60x, and 96x too. 


Where is this bridge located exactly ?

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29silhouette

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Re: Why are the surfaces of lakes curved ?
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2012, 12:45:28 PM »
Washington state, Puget Sound- Narrows Bridge.  Coordinates are at the bottom of the image.  Actually it's about 9.8 miles to the bridge.


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Tausami

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Re: Why are the surfaces of lakes curved ?
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2012, 01:54:50 PM »
This is called the Sinking Ship Effect. Wave action has a tendency to 'hide' objects further in the distance.

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Flat Eric

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Re: Why are the surfaces of lakes curved ?
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2012, 04:20:30 PM »
There is no wave effect. the same phenomenon appears whether the waves are high, medium, low or inexistent.

repeated observations show clearly that

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Ski

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Re: Why are the surfaces of lakes curved ?
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2012, 05:24:45 PM »
Objects on the shore line, and the towers themselves, show the effect of perspective near the eye-line compressing the objects. Eventually the bottom of the bridge pillar is so compressed that the eye is unable to resolve it resulting in the "sinking-ship effect."  This is shown to greater effect on the details of the shoreline at the right of the horizon. All this is related by Dr. Rowbotham in ENaG.
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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Tausami

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Re: Why are the surfaces of lakes curved ?
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2012, 05:27:01 PM »
There is no wave effect. the same phenomenon appears whether the waves are high, medium, low or inexistent.

repeated observations show clearly that

What do repeated observations show?

And there is no such thing as a scenario in which there are no waves. There always are, even if they are small.

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Beorn

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Re: Why are the surfaces of lakes curved ?
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2012, 01:06:41 AM »
There is no wave effect. the same phenomenon appears whether the waves are high, medium, low or inexistent.

repeated observations show clearly that

weather patterns on the moon and
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davidbloop

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Re: Why are the surfaces of lakes curved ?
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2012, 06:05:41 AM »
There is no wave effect. the same phenomenon appears whether the waves are high, medium, low or inexistent.

repeated observations show clearly that

What do repeated observations show?

And there is no such thing as a scenario in which there are no waves. There always are, even if they are small.

I am from Southern Australia and only a few hours away is Lake Eyre which up until recently was just a giant salt pan. The same effect happens here and I'm pretty sure a salt pan doesn't have waves (although it might, crazier stuff has been suggested on this forum).

When you cross it you can see the land on the other side rising slowly the closer you get.

I'm wondering what 'fact' you're going to invent to explain this?

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Thork

Re: Why are the surfaces of lakes curved ?
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2012, 06:57:00 AM »
We don't need to invent anything. A mirage will easily hide far off objects that are close to the surface.

 

 

 



Pay particular attention to the last photo. Notice how some of the bottom of the sun has "dissappeared" out of view and it appears to float. Its not below the horizon. Its just invisible. This happens to ship hulls and mountains that get smaller because of perspective as you get further from them.

Of course you'll likely claim that it wasn't hot on a salt pan in Australia. ::)
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 07:00:36 AM by Thork »

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davidbloop

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Re: Why are the surfaces of lakes curved ?
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2012, 07:06:38 AM »
Actually the average temperature of Lake Eyre is 21 degrees (69.8 F). It does get insanely hot during summer but during winter it can drop to around 15 degrees (59 F).

I never go there in summer, it can reach 46 degrees which is (i imagine) just pure hell on a salt pan.

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Olivier

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Re: Why are the surfaces of lakes curved ?
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2012, 12:57:27 PM »
We don't need to invent anything. A mirage will easily hide far off objects that are close to the surface.

Pay particular attention to the last photo. Notice how some of the bottom of the sun has "dissappeared" out of view and it appears to float. Its not below the horizon. Its just invisible. This happens to ship hulls and mountains that get smaller because of perspective as you get further from them.


Thork, you just digged your own grave showing us these photos   :P

If Earth was flat, i mean dead flat like in RET FET, the most simple and basic laws of perspective would say that on the 1st picture, the distance between sun and earth is ~ 1 fifth of the sun's diameter, and on the 4th picture the sun would almost be touching the ground.
But what happens on the 5th picture ??? did someone open a hole in thr ground and took the sun in?

The sun is only ~32 miles (or so) in diameter, right, and it's 3'000 miles above the ground. 32 miles, 3'000 miles.... that's a proportion that is very slightly different from what your 1st picture shows :)

You don't need to invent anything you say ? you just need to invent extremely exotic optical phenomenons to explain why the sun appears to be over 400 times lower than it is.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 02:13:21 PM by Olivier »

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Beorn

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Re: Why are the surfaces of lakes curved ?
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2012, 01:50:39 PM »
We don't need to invent anything. A mirage will easily hide far off objects that are close to the surface.

Pay particular attention to the last photo. Notice how some of the bottom of the sun has "dissappeared" out of view and it appears to float. Its not below the horizon. Its just invisible. This happens to ship hulls and mountains that get smaller because of perspective as you get further from them.


dead flat like in RET,

Oh so now the earth is round and flat. Crazy things these zealous RETers come up with to keep their warped world view intact.
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Olivier

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Re: Why are the surfaces of lakes curved ?
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2012, 02:17:32 PM »
Oh so now the earth is round and flat. Crazy things these zealous RETers come up with to keep their warped world view intact.

Thanks for noticing the typo. Post corrected.

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29silhouette

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Re: Why are the surfaces of lakes curved ?
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2012, 12:17:43 AM »
This is called the Sinking Ship Effect. Wave action has a tendency to 'hide' objects further in the distance.
Let's say I'm five feet above the water's surface and there are 100,000 one foot waves between me and a distant object on the water's surface.  How much of that object will be hidden by waves if the water is perfectly (FE) flat?  Roughly 99.999% of one foot (depends on distance a lot of course too).  If the waves were actually blocking visibility of the objects along the water, I wouldn't be able to see them.  In the pictures I took I can still them though, they're just being compressed.


Objects on the shore line, and the towers themselves, show the effect of perspective near the eye-line compressing the objects. Eventually the bottom of the bridge pillar is so compressed that the eye is unable to resolve it resulting in the "sinking-ship effect."  This is shown to greater effect on the details of the shoreline at the right of the horizon. All this is related by Dr. Rowbotham in ENaG.
I've been reading that section. 
Perspective makes objects become visibly smaller both vertically and horizontally as the distance increases correct?  How exactly does adding a physical object (a surface of some kind whether a "board" (-quote Rowbotham) water, salt flats, whatever) cause imaginary 'lines of perspective' to change if not because of refraction?  Rowbotham says nothing of objects becoming 'squashed' that I could find.  Refraction accounts for this though, and a 'hill of water' due to curvature accounts for the higher objects descending toward the water.  So I guess (according to ENaG) objects get smaller as distance increases, but at a certain point, they get smaller vertically faster than horizontally?  Also, the bridge and hillside weren't any further away in the lower picture versus the higher picture.  They were the same distance.

Increased magnification also restored absolutely nothing.  I can post a 15x and a 60x shot both from the exact same elevation if need be, but other than slight detail enhancement, nothing changes.  Everything close to the water still has a compressed look.

There is no wave effect. the same phenomenon appears whether the waves are high, medium, low or inexistent.

repeated observations show clearly that

What do repeated observations show?

And there is no such thing as a scenario in which there are no waves. There always are, even if they are small.
There were lots of little waves.  I'm not sure how a swell would work in a long narrow and shallow (about 140 feet) channel like that.  How high would a swell need to be to create the effect I saw, and wouldn't it be somewhat noticeable especially with a railroad running almost the entire distance along the shoreline to the hill?
Should I have someone located halfway down along the tracks to report on the vertical distance between the rails and the water (or if they're flooded) in the event I witness (according to FE) a big stationary swell again?

There are also no repeated observations of that bridge and waterway from that particular vantage point as of yet.  It's about 40 miles away for me.  If I get the job I want, I'll be able to simply swing by after work, but until then my trips down to that spot rely on me heading that way for other agendas, and time permitting.

We don't need to invent anything.
Now that's funny.
 
 


Pay particular attention to the last photo. Notice how some of the bottom of the sun has "dissappeared" out of view and it appears to float. Its not below the horizon. Its just invisible.

The sun would have to travel a looooong ways farther away between the top and bottom picture to get that much closer to the horizon (Not to mention the massive curvature of light since the sun would be somewhere out past the icewall assuming that series of pictures is looking west at sunset, and according to FE the sun should be well along it's circular path toward the other side of the disk)

There would also have to be an 'enlarging' effect to keep the sun the same size as it sets (plainly evident with the top portion still above the horizon), but then an abrupt 'shrinking' at the bottom portion due to 'perspective'.  And then some mirage thrown in, which I'm guessing helps facilitate the 'perspective shrink'?

Oh, and the whole time as the sun travels by throughout the course of the day, it keeps the same side turned towards me (as I photographed and posted awhile back), which means (if the sun is a sphere) it also would have to adjust it's rotation speed slightly throughout the day (speeding up and then slowing in the evening as it travels further away. 

Now if the sun is a spotlight, it would somehow have to appear round, even at a distance of 20,000 miles (3000 miles high and 20 degrees above the horizon if I remember correctly), and the light would somehow have to curve along it's path while maintaining a round look, which would involve a varying curve radius for the light rays.  Aetheric whirlpools take care of it all though I guess right?

Anyway, I'm starting to get off topic.  I guess what I mean to say is, without invoking some wild bendy light properties, RET works much easier with sunsets.