How Whales Prove a Flat Earth

Whales are a species beloved by all, save a few countries.  Our love for these beasts is so great that whaling is even said to be illegal in the landlocked Midwestern state of Oklahoma.  Moreover, adoration for these giant sea creatures is not limited to this day in the ages, whales influenced at least one author of the Bible, The Bard Shakespeare, and of course, brought us the revered classic "Moby Dick". 

So how do they prove a flat earth?  In an aspect of the cetacean that is so wondrous that if stripped away would still leave a majestic beast, but when viewed as the whole makes this modern day leviathan truly stunning; its song.  Yes, the song of the seas, sung throughout earth's oceans in a choir of bassly tones.  These songs seem to transcend time and tribe as a whale from a different pod and generation will sing the song of its ancestor.  Their song is so finely tuned, that the disruptive notes of our large sea vessels are in real danger of threatening these mammals.

To get to the crux of my post, marine biologists say that a whale could hear the voice of another from pole to pole (http://www.whalesong.net/index.php/humpback-faq/songs/how-far-do-the-songs-travel-under-water That link's for you Markjo, I know how you haven't mastered Google yet).  This is a physical impossibility on a round earth in both the sense that a whale's ears aren't magical and it defies physics as popular science defines it. 

To explain away the patent round-earth lie of how radio waves travel further than the curve of the earth would allow, round-earth proponents claim that the waves bounce off the atmosphere.  This cannot hold true in the oceans.  Are we to believe that the sound waves bounce of the surface waves?  It's laughable to even consider and I for one would much like to hear how round-earthers could explain this phenomenon.

In conclusion, whales are just another unbalanced card in the every shaking card-house of round-earth theory.  You simply cannot say that whales sing such great distances without the world being flat.

With such stunning proof swimming in our waters it begs the question why there are groups of people who want to exterminate them...

Other sources:
http://greenanswers.com/q/140942/animals-wildlife/mammals/how-far-away-each-other-can-whales-communicate

it can travel at least hundreds, and maybe thousands of miles. We do know that Blue Whales in particular could once call from pole to pole, but that distance is shrinking due to human caused noise pollution.

http://www.chacha.com/question/how-far-do-whales-voices-travel

Blue whales could once communicate from pole to pole - that means halfway around the world!

http://wwf.panda.org/what_we_do/endangered_species/cetaceans/about/blue_whale/

To communicate, they emit low-frequency sounds and series of clicks.Blue whales are believed to have excellent hearing, especially at low frequencies, which is valuable in the dark ocean environment. They are the loudest animals on Earth and louder than a jet engine: their calls reach 188 decibels, while a jet reaches 140 decibels. Their low frequency whistle can be heard for hundreds of miles, and is probably used to attract other blue whales.

dubious information and lack of knowledge of accoustics

dubious information and lack of knowledge of accoustics

Care to elaborate on that?

Please.

Sound is refracted just as light is. Refraction occurs not only when light moves from water to air, but whenever the speed of light changes. Similarly, a sound wave traveling through the ocean is bent whenever it encounters changes in the speed of sound. Since sound speed changes with changes in temperature, salinity, and pressure, a sound wave will refract as it moves through the ocean.

http://omp.gso.uri.edu/dosits/science/sndmoves/3b.htm

The ocean is a curved medium which sound travels through.

Yes, the ocean magically refracts sound precisely the way RET needs it to.

Yes, the ocean magically refracts sound precisely the way RET needs it to.

There is no magic involved in sounds being refracted... 

There is no magic involved in sounds being refracted...

There is when you're talking about refracting sound around an entire planet at precisely the angle you need it to.

The sound merely difracts around the earth.  You can see waves refract around islands.  The same can be done with the earth itself.  I highly doubt refraction is involved.

Quote from: ItMustBeRound on November 06, 2012, 05:48:49 AM

There is no magic involved in sounds being refracted...

There is when you're talking about refracting sound around an entire planet at precisely the angle you need it to.

I've got no problems with the sound travelling far enough through a medium to go pole to pole. Take SOFAR or DSC. This channel is a horizontal layer of water within the sea that is known to carry low frequency sound waves - a waveguide . Now, whale song is exactly that, low frequency

Mysterious low-frequency sounds, attributed to humpback whales and other baleen whales, are a common occurrence in the channel. Scientists believe humpback whales may dive down to this channel and "sing" to communicate with other humpback whales many kilometers away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOFAR_channel
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119693602/abstract

As the article states, this phenomenon is something that is well known and has been used in submarine warfare for many years.

*edited to add correct citation

I've got no problems with the sound travelling far enough through a medium to go pole to pole. Take SOFAR or DSC. This channel is a horizontal layer of water within the sea that is known to carry low frequency sound waves - a waveguide . Now, whale song is exactly that, low frequency

I think you don't have an exact idea of how much water there is between Antarctica and the Arctic Circle. Australia never claims that it hears Russian subs in its waters with sound coming from the Arctic Circle. Obviously this magic refraction through the water is not occurring and that the sound waves of the whales travel directly to their destination because the whales want the sound to travel in that direction. If this refraction you claim exists infintiely propagates all sound, we would hear the entire world all the time.

Quote from: ItMustBeRound on November 06, 2012, 06:55:40 AM

I've got no problems with the sound travelling far enough through a medium to go pole to pole. Take SOFAR or DSC. This channel is a horizontal layer of water within the sea that is known to carry low frequency sound waves - a waveguide . Now, whale song is exactly that, low frequency

I think you don't have an exact idea of how much water there is between Antarctica and the Arctic Circle. Australia never claims that it hears Russian subs in its waters with sound coming from the Arctic Circle. Obviously this magic refraction through the water is not occurring and that the sound waves of the whales travel directly to their destination because the whales want the sound to travel in that direction. If this refraction you claim exists infintiely propagates all sound, we would hear the entire world all the time.

Don't forget - I'm not the one who opened this thread with the idea that whale song in the north pole can be heard in the south pole. I initially took that claim from the article with a pinch of salt but given I'm not a marine biologist nor do I proclaim to be an expert in wave form I'll accept it.

To clarify, my argument is that the OP is wrong in the assumption that one whale should not be able to hear another whale beyond a given horizon and therefore the earth must be flat to allow whales to hear one another. My argument is that sound waves will refract http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/Demos/refract/refract.html and there are plenty of papers out there with information on this.

Don't forget - I'm not the one who opened this thread with the idea that whale song in the north pole can be heard in the south pole. I initially took that claim from the article with a pinch of salt but given I'm not a marine biologist nor do I proclaim to be an expert in wave form I'll accept it.

To clarify, my argument is that the OP is wrong in the assumption that one whale should not be able to hear another whale beyond a given horizon and therefore the earth must be flat to allow whales to hear one another. My argument is that sound waves will refract http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/Demos/refract/refract.html and there are plenty of papers out there with information on this.

The problem being refraction has nothing to do with the loudness of the sound. If what you claim is true, then we would hear all sounds. All of them, literally every sound ever made in the ocean would refract. We don't, because sound doesn't propagate like that.

Quote from: ItMustBeRound on November 06, 2012, 07:28:06 AM

Don't forget - I'm not the one who opened this thread with the idea that whale song in the north pole can be heard in the south pole. I initially took that claim from the article with a pinch of salt but given I'm not a marine biologist nor do I proclaim to be an expert in wave form I'll accept it.

To clarify, my argument is that the OP is wrong in the assumption that one whale should not be able to hear another whale beyond a given horizon and therefore the earth must be flat to allow whales to hear one another. My argument is that sound waves will refract http://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/Demos/refract/refract.html and there are plenty of papers out there with information on this.

The problem being refraction has nothing to do with the loudness of the sound. If what you claim is true, then we would hear all sounds. All of them, literally every sound ever made in the ocean would refract. We don't, because sound doesn't propagate like that.

The subject is low frequency whale noise. As we know, whales can hear whale noise across vast distances. They sing to each other across vast distances. The OP assumption is that for whales to do this the earth must be flat otherwise the sound couldn't propagate across these vast distances due to the horizon (albeit underwater). My counter argument is that the sound simply refracts or, follows a waveguide - both of which are well documented phenomenon within nature and therefore able to explain why sound can travel these distances in a round earth model.

If we are talking about loudness and what the human ear can hear - then I would guess that those frequencies don't have the wavelength to travel the vast distances and therefore dissipate.


 

Repeating your previous statements is only going to get you a repeated answer.

Repeating your previous statements is only going to get you a repeated answer.

So are you saying there is no refraction and there are no waveguides? Sorry - I must be missing your point?

Quote from: Irushwithscvs on November 06, 2012, 07:52:03 AM

Repeating your previous statements is only going to get you a repeated answer.

So are you saying there is no refraction and there are no waveguides? Sorry - I must be missing your point?

The existence of sound refraction does not provide evidence that what you are saying happens, actually happens. You continue to post short range sound propagation papers and theories, and then extrapolating them to the entire world. I am not saying there is no refraction, I am saying refraction does not do what you apparently think it does.

this whole story is very dubious. we provided you some answers about travel of sound through water since you absolutely want to give credit to this.

Quote from: ItMustBeRound on November 06, 2012, 08:06:57 AM

Quote from: Irushwithscvs on November 06, 2012, 07:52:03 AM

Repeating your previous statements is only going to get you a repeated answer.

So are you saying there is no refraction and there are no waveguides? Sorry - I must be missing your point?

The existence of sound refraction does not provide evidence that what you are saying happens, actually happens. You continue to post short range sound propagation papers and theories, and then extrapolating them to the entire world. I am not saying there is no refraction, I am saying refraction does not do what you apparently think it does.

There is absolutely nothing short range about SOFAR and sound propagating along this channel. Equally - the SOFAR channel is not a theory but a fact as is sound refracting when the speed of it changes (given salinity or temperature changes)

I'm also not saying that sound in water will travel from Pole to Pole - as I said earlier I took that statement with a pinch of salt. What I am saying is that the OP article cannot be a proof for FET because any number of reasoning's can be given for sound waves travelling beyond a given horizon. Hope that clarifies my position a little.

To explain away the patent round-earth lie of how radio waves travel further than the curve of the earth would allow, round-earth proponents claim that the waves bounce off the atmosphere.  This cannot hold true in the oceans.  Are we to believe that the sound waves bounce of the surface waves?  It's laughable to even consider and I for one would much like to hear how round-earthers could explain this phenomenon.

FYI, sound is a mechanical wave, not an electromagnetic wave so the way that they propagate through a given medium can be quite different.

Right, and McDonalds and Burger King have different burgers so the way that they kill you can be quite different. What's your point? That it "can" be different? Care to offer a how? Or even supply a means that submarine sound waves could traverse an entire globe?

I could be interpreting wrong, but it seems to me that FE proponents in this thread think that sound waves travel like light waves. If you are standing 10 feet away from me in an open field, with a 10x10 feet wall between us, and a shine a laser pointer towards you, the wall will block it. But if i yell, or even whisper, you will hear me. Not because the sound vibrates through the wall, but because it travels through the air around the wall. Now with the earth, instead of a wall, picture a planet between two whales. The sound waves will travel through the water around the earth. As a matter of fact, water is an excellent conductor for sound due to it's high density (relative to air, the usual conductor for sounds we hear), making the sound waves much more likely to reach the other side of a round earth.

Quick question (sorry if this derails): Why do low-frequency sound waves travel farther than high-frequency? Does it have anything to do with diffraction or is it strictly absorption?

Right, and McDonalds and Burger King have different burgers so the way that they kill you can be quite different. What's your point? That it "can" be different? Care to offer a how? Or even supply a means that submarine sound waves could traverse an entire globe?

Perhaps it might be helpful if you understood how sound waves propagate underwater. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_acoustics#Propagation_of_sound

Quote from: Pongo on November 06, 2012, 10:50:21 AM

Right, and McDonalds and Burger King have different burgers so the way that they kill you can be quite different. What's your point? That it "can" be different? Care to offer a how? Or even supply a means that submarine sound waves could traverse an entire globe?

Perhaps it might be helpful if you understood how sound waves propagate underwater. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_acoustics#Propagation_of_sound

Thank you for the link, Markjo.  After reading that yourself do you still think that sound waves can travel an entire globe's distance?  If so, do you also believe that a submarine under the arctic ice can ping a sub near Antarctica using these same principals?

Quote from: markjo on November 06, 2012, 03:41:17 PM

Quote from: Pongo on November 06, 2012, 10:50:21 AM

Right, and McDonalds and Burger King have different burgers so the way that they kill you can be quite different. What's your point? That it "can" be different? Care to offer a how? Or even supply a means that submarine sound waves could traverse an entire globe?

Perhaps it might be helpful if you understood how sound waves propagate underwater. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_acoustics#Propagation_of_sound

Thank you for the link, Markjo.  After reading that yourself do you still think that sound waves can travel an entire globe's distance?  If so, do you also believe that a submarine under the arctic ice can ping a sub near Antarctica using these same principals?

Sound waves can travel any distance.  Whether they're strong enough to detect at a specific distance is a separate matter.

Thank you for the link, Markjo.  After reading that yourself do you still think that sound waves can travel an entire globe's distance?  If so, do you also believe that a submarine under the arctic ice can ping a sub near Antarctica using these same principals?

Possibly, but irrelevant.  SONAR pings are analogous to whale echo location, not whale songs.  They are completely different functions.  Whales don't echo locate across oceans and neither do submarines.

Sound can travel in a randomly curved medium as easily as light can travel in a randomly curved medium. The phenomenon is called diffraction and the curved medium in which light travels all arround us is called optical fiber.

 In an optical fiber the density of the glass varies from the core to the outside of the fiber. Photos traveling inside, when approaching the outside, will bend back towards the core of the fiber. And so come out again on the other side, and this whatever the path of the optical fiber is.

Sound waves can travel very far in the ocean, when they're being reflected by underlying and overlying water layers with different density.

Whales don't save FET and don't dismiss RET.

Sooooo, if the earth were round then it would be light on both sides of the globe at the same time. Gotcha.