# Big problem with the sun.

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#### 11cookeaw1

##### Big problem with the sun.
« on: October 20, 2012, 06:30:53 AM »
The sun should appear the get smaller the farther away it travels. Some people have suggested the atmosphere magnifies it. There is 1 problem though.
1. If you go up very high, like in a plane, you'll be above most of the mass of the atmosphere. The Sun should then appear much smaller then normal, it doesn't, hypothesis failed.
Checkmate.

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#### Thork

##### Re: Big problem understanding the sun.
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2012, 06:44:01 AM »
I have helpfully changed the title of your topic. Because obviously the sun doesn't have a problem. You have a problem understanding it.

An aircraft typically flies at 6-7 miles above the earth. You will appreciate that's not a huge amount of air to look through. When you look at the sun as it is setting you may be looking through thousands of miles of air.

So looking through 6-7 miles less air by getting into an aircraft ISN'T going to make the sun seem smaller. Looking through thousands of miles horizontally may make the sun seem larger as the light is refracted through it.

So indeed, hypothesis failed. Your hypothesis.

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#### iwanttobelieve

• 5442
##### Re: Big problem with the sun.
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2012, 06:58:31 AM »
The sun should appear the get smaller the farther away it travels. Some people have suggested the atmosphere magnifies it. There is 1 problem though.
1. If you go up very high, like in a plane, you'll be above most of the mass of the atmosphere. The Sun should then appear much smaller then normal, it doesn't, hypothesis failed.
Checkmate.

The "flock of seagulls" setting sun theory is the biggest flaw in the FAQ. I have, as other have performed numerous experiments, and the same results apply, the sun is the same size, overhead, and at shallow heights.
Unfortunately the FAQ can not be changed, for reasons unknown.

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#### Thork

##### Re: Big problem with the sun.
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2012, 07:09:28 AM »
The "flock of seagulls" setting sun theory
I am always reminded of the 1980's band 'Flock of Seagulls' and the ensuing 'Flock of Seagulls haircut' that the band's members had. In the 80's so many people had that stupid haircut. Not me though. I had a centre parting and curtains. *shudder*

Unfortunately the FAQ can not be changed, for reasons unknown.
Its absolutely impossible. You know that. Why would you bring it up? We do not have the man-power or financial resource to get a moderator to edit that thread. It would be easier to force a camel through the eye of a needle. Why must you continually try to humiliate the society?

#### markjo

• Content Nazi
• The Elder Ones
• 40126
##### Re: Big problem with the sun.
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2012, 08:33:17 AM »
The "flock of seagulls" setting sun theory is the biggest flaw in the FAQ.
I don't know if I'd say that it's the biggest flat, but it is significant.  My biggest objection is that the seagulls would become too small to see long before they sink into the horizon.

Quote
Unfortunately the FAQ can not be changed, for reasons unknown.
It's not so much that the FAQ can't be changed.  It's more like they need better answers to put in there and they just can't seem to find any right now.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

#### RealScientist

• 417
• Science does not care for Earth's shape
##### Re: Big problem understanding the sun.
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2012, 09:46:18 AM »
I have helpfully changed the title of your topic. Because obviously the sun doesn't have a problem. You have a problem understanding it.

An aircraft typically flies at 6-7 miles above the earth. You will appreciate that's not a huge amount of air to look through. When you look at the sun as it is setting you may be looking through thousands of miles of air.

So looking through 6-7 miles less air by getting into an aircraft ISN'T going to make the sun seem smaller. Looking through thousands of miles horizontally may make the sun seem larger as the light is refracted through it.

So indeed, hypothesis failed. Your hypothesis.
There is a in your understanding of the atmosphere, by the way. And I am not even discussing the shape of the Earth.

Your 6-7 miles are vertical, not horizontal. Moving 7 miles horizontally makes almost no change at all in how the setting Sun is seen, in either RET or FET, but moving 7 miles vertically changes the whole observation. The air is so thin that only commercial airplanes and specially made jets can go that high using wings. And the highest that anyone has gone up in the air with wings is only 7 miles higher than that. In fact, the Russians tried to get that high with their interceptor planes and failed.

The air becomes thinner at such a fast pace as altitude increases that you cannot even breathe at just 5 miles high. In fact, you can see a dark sky in the pictures taken from helium balloons!

From the altitude of a balloon you should see the Sun all day long if the atmosphere were the cause of nighttime. And from half the height you should see a big difference from what you see on land, even if you see night time. But nothing of the kind is seen. I have seen dawns and dusks from airplanes several times, and they are not in any way different, even though the air is already less than a third of what you have by the sea.

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#### Thork

##### Re: Big problem with the sun.
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2012, 09:51:30 AM »
Yes, thank you PretendScientist.

Read my post again, but this time mouth the words out loud and see if that helps them to go in.

If the OP ascends 6-7 miles, the sun above him is still going to look roughly the same, as 6-7 miles isn't much in the way of air. But if the OP then looks through thousands of miles of air horizontally at sunset, then one should expect distortion of some form.
Therefore getting in a plane and noting the sun looks the same is entirely expected as 6-7 miles isn't very far.

By the way, I had that avatar once. It made people furious. So furious that I had to change it. I now only have avatars with smiling people in them. You'd be surprised how reaction changes to you based on your avatar.

#### DDDDAts all folks

• 1311
##### Re: Big problem with the sun.
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2012, 10:52:31 AM »
I'm not sure about the specifics of this theory but things in the distance must be HUGE if the atmosphere can magnify things.

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#### Holyhunter

• 4
##### Re: Big problem understanding the sun.
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2012, 05:15:53 PM »
I have helpfully changed the title of your topic. Because obviously the sun doesn't have a problem. You have a problem understanding it.

An aircraft typically flies at 6-7 miles above the earth. You will appreciate that's not a huge amount of air to look through. When you look at the sun as it is setting you may be looking through thousands of miles of air.

So looking through 6-7 miles less air by getting into an aircraft ISN'T going to make the sun seem smaller. Looking through thousands of miles horizontally may make the sun seem larger as the light is refracted through it.

So indeed, hypothesis failed. Your hypothesis.
6-7 miles more than 1/5th of the way to sun according to this 32 miles idea.

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#### 11cookeaw1

##### Re: Big problem with the sun.
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2012, 06:43:56 PM »
Yes, thank you PretendScientist.

Read my post again, but this time mouth the words out loud and see if that helps them to go in.

If the OP ascends 6-7 miles, the sun above him is still going to look roughly the same, as 6-7 miles isn't much in the way of air. But if the OP then looks through thousands of miles of air horizontally at sunset, then one should expect distortion of some form.
Therefore getting in a plane and noting the sun looks the same is entirely expected as 6-7 miles isn't very far.

By the way, I had that avatar once. It made people furious. So furious that I had to change it. I now only have avatars with smiling people in them. You'd be surprised how reaction changes to you based on your avatar.

The atmosphere get's thinner the higher you go, a lot thinner.
At the hight of a plane it's really thin.
At 100 kilometers for all practical purposes there's no air.
A plane is over most of the atmosphere.

#### Roundy the Truthinessist

• Flat Earth TheFLAMETHROWER!
• The Elder Ones
• 27043
• I'm the boss.
##### Re: Big problem understanding the sun.
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2012, 07:08:33 PM »
I have helpfully changed the title of your topic. Because obviously the sun doesn't have a problem. You have a problem understanding it.

An aircraft typically flies at 6-7 miles above the earth. You will appreciate that's not a huge amount of air to look through. When you look at the sun as it is setting you may be looking through thousands of miles of air.

So looking through 6-7 miles less air by getting into an aircraft ISN'T going to make the sun seem smaller. Looking through thousands of miles horizontally may make the sun seem larger as the light is refracted through it.

So indeed, hypothesis failed. Your hypothesis.
6-7 miles more than 1/5th of the way to sun according to this 32 miles idea.

There is no 32 miles idea.  That's the diameter of the sun you're thinking of.  The distance to the sun is stated to be 3000 miles above sea level.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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#### iwanttobelieve

• 5442
##### Re: Big problem with the sun.
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2012, 07:56:44 PM »
since the moon is only 100 miles (on average) below the sun, a 32 mile diameter moon is very near correct.

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#### Holyhunter

• 4
##### Re: Big problem understanding the sun.
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2012, 09:48:14 PM »
I have helpfully changed the title of your topic. Because obviously the sun doesn't have a problem. You have a problem understanding it.

An aircraft typically flies at 6-7 miles above the earth. You will appreciate that's not a huge amount of air to look through. When you look at the sun as it is setting you may be looking through thousands of miles of air.

So looking through 6-7 miles less air by getting into an aircraft ISN'T going to make the sun seem smaller. Looking through thousands of miles horizontally may make the sun seem larger as the light is refracted through it.

So indeed, hypothesis failed. Your hypothesis.
6-7 miles more than 1/5th of the way to sun according to this 32 miles idea.

There is no 32 miles idea.  That's the diameter of the sun you're thinking of.  The distance to the sun is stated to be 3000 miles above sea level.
oh wow, i feel really stupid now.

#### RealScientist

• 417
• Science does not care for Earth's shape
##### Re: Big problem understanding the sun.
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2012, 01:58:04 AM »
I have helpfully changed the title of your topic. Because obviously the sun doesn't have a problem. You have a problem understanding it.

An aircraft typically flies at 6-7 miles above the earth. You will appreciate that's not a huge amount of air to look through. When you look at the sun as it is setting you may be looking through thousands of miles of air.

So looking through 6-7 miles less air by getting into an aircraft ISN'T going to make the sun seem smaller. Looking through thousands of miles horizontally may make the sun seem larger as the light is refracted through it.

So indeed, hypothesis failed. Your hypothesis.
There is a in your understanding of the atmosphere, by the way. And I am not even discussing the shape of the Earth.

Your 6-7 miles are vertical, not horizontal. Moving 7 miles horizontally makes almost no change at all in how the setting Sun is seen, in either RET or FET, but moving 7 miles vertically changes the whole observation. The air is so thin that only commercial airplanes and specially made jets can go that high using wings. And the highest that anyone has gone up in the air with wings is only 7 miles higher than that. In fact, the Russians tried to get that high with their interceptor planes and failed.

The air becomes thinner at such a fast pace as altitude increases that you cannot even breathe at just 5 miles high. In fact, you can see a dark sky in the pictures taken from helium balloons!

From the altitude of a balloon you should see the Sun all day long if the atmosphere were the cause of nighttime. And from half the height you should see a big difference from what you see on land, even if you see night time. But nothing of the kind is seen. I have seen dawns and dusks from airplanes several times, and they are not in any way different, even though the air is already less than a third of what you have by the sea.
You have left more than two thirds of the atmosphere below you when you fly in a commercial plane. The powers of the atmosphere to magnify the Sun should have been reduced by two thirds, but you can see for yourself that dawn and dusk are the same up there as down here. And the people who flew the Concorde, when it was in service, were common people who would have told others about seeing a very different Sun, and did not.

If you want to blame something for the magnification of the Sun, you have to find something other than the atmosphere.

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#### 11cookeaw1

##### Re: Big problem with the sun.
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2012, 02:02:34 AM »
A plane is above most of the mass of the atmosphere, because the atmosphere get's exponentially thinner as the altitude increases.

If the atmosphere did not get much thinner as the altitude increases then the atmospheric pressure would be a LOT higher, instead of 100 kilos pascals, it would be many tens of mega pascals.

So if the atmosphere magnified the sun then to people in planes the sun would look a lot smaller.

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#### Battery72

• 140
##### Re: Big problem with the sun.
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2012, 03:26:37 AM »
I believe there are pictures of Felix standing on the ledge of his capsule with the sun in shot. The sky is black yet we can see the sun. Back on Earth FET says the "atmolayer" blocks the sun causing night. So wouldn't the sun be visible 24/7 without the "atmolayer" interfierence from altitude?

#### Rushy

• 8971
##### Re: Big problem with the sun.
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2012, 07:49:50 AM »
I believe there are pictures of Felix standing on the ledge of his capsule with the sun in shot. The sky is black yet we can see the sun. Back on Earth FET says the "atmolayer" blocks the sun causing night. So wouldn't the sun be visible 24/7 without the "atmolayer" interfierence from altitude?

Correct.

You have left more than two thirds of the atmosphere below you when you fly in a commercial plane. The powers of the atmosphere to magnify the Sun should have been reduced by two thirds, but you can see for yourself that dawn and dusk are the same up there as down here. And the people who flew the Concorde, when it was in service, were common people who would have told others about seeing a very different Sun, and did not.

If you want to blame something for the magnification of the Sun, you have to find something other than the atmosphere.

I assume based on your attitude you were trying to contradict FET, but did not do so. If you have a further concern I suggest you voice it more precisely so that we can correct your misunderstanding.

#### RealScientist

• 417
• Science does not care for Earth's shape
##### Re: Big problem with the sun.
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2012, 07:34:22 PM »

You have left more than two thirds of the atmosphere below you when you fly in a commercial plane. The powers of the atmosphere to magnify the Sun should have been reduced by two thirds, but you can see for yourself that dawn and dusk are the same up there as down here. And the people who flew the Concorde, when it was in service, were common people who would have told others about seeing a very different Sun, and did not.

If you want to blame something for the magnification of the Sun, you have to find something other than the atmosphere.

I assume based on your attitude you were trying to contradict FET, but did not do so. If you have a further concern I suggest you voice it more precisely so that we can correct your misunderstanding.
It is this simple: if the atmosphere is just refractive enough to create the illusion of a Sun that does not change size from noon to dusk, then it will not be just refractive enough when you are almost out of the atmosphere. The OP is clear, simple and completely right.

You can suggest that a coincidence happens with the atmosphere, but you cannot suggest that the same coincidence happens with radically different circumstances, as with both the thick atmosphere we have at sea level and the almost non-existent atmosphere at 36000 or even 70000 feet.

#### Rushy

• 8971
##### Re: Big problem with the sun.
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2012, 08:18:22 PM »

You have left more than two thirds of the atmosphere below you when you fly in a commercial plane. The powers of the atmosphere to magnify the Sun should have been reduced by two thirds, but you can see for yourself that dawn and dusk are the same up there as down here. And the people who flew the Concorde, when it was in service, were common people who would have told others about seeing a very different Sun, and did not.

If you want to blame something for the magnification of the Sun, you have to find something other than the atmosphere.

I assume based on your attitude you were trying to contradict FET, but did not do so. If you have a further concern I suggest you voice it more precisely so that we can correct your misunderstanding.
It is this simple: if the atmosphere is just refractive enough to create the illusion of a Sun that does not change size from noon to dusk, then it will not be just refractive enough when you are almost out of the atmosphere. The OP is clear, simple and completely right.

You can suggest that a coincidence happens with the atmosphere, but you cannot suggest that the same coincidence happens with radically different circumstances, as with both the thick atmosphere we have at sea level and the almost non-existent atmosphere at 36000 or even 70000 feet.

The density changes, yet the composition does as well. This drastically affects how light behaves in the upper atmolayer compared to lower layers.

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#### 11cookeaw1

##### Re: Big problem with the sun.
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2012, 01:53:17 AM »

You have left more than two thirds of the atmosphere below you when you fly in a commercial plane. The powers of the atmosphere to magnify the Sun should have been reduced by two thirds, but you can see for yourself that dawn and dusk are the same up there as down here. And the people who flew the Concorde, when it was in service, were common people who would have told others about seeing a very different Sun, and did not.

If you want to blame something for the magnification of the Sun, you have to find something other than the atmosphere.

I assume based on your attitude you were trying to contradict FET, but did not do so. If you have a further concern I suggest you voice it more precisely so that we can correct your misunderstanding.
It is this simple: if the atmosphere is just refractive enough to create the illusion of a Sun that does not change size from noon to dusk, then it will not be just refractive enough when you are almost out of the atmosphere. The OP is clear, simple and completely right.

You can suggest that a coincidence happens with the atmosphere, but you cannot suggest that the same coincidence happens with radically different circumstances, as with both the thick atmosphere we have at sea level and the almost non-existent atmosphere at 36000 or even 70000 feet.

The density changes, yet the composition does as well. This drastically affects how light behaves in the upper atmolayer compared to lower layers.
Density changes a lot faster.
Here, your justing making up new stuff to cover holes in your hypothesis.
Flat earth hypothesis has failed, give it up.

#### RealScientist

• 417
• Science does not care for Earth's shape
##### Re: Big problem with the sun.
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2012, 04:40:40 AM »

You have left more than two thirds of the atmosphere below you when you fly in a commercial plane. The powers of the atmosphere to magnify the Sun should have been reduced by two thirds, but you can see for yourself that dawn and dusk are the same up there as down here. And the people who flew the Concorde, when it was in service, were common people who would have told others about seeing a very different Sun, and did not.

If you want to blame something for the magnification of the Sun, you have to find something other than the atmosphere.

I assume based on your attitude you were trying to contradict FET, but did not do so. If you have a further concern I suggest you voice it more precisely so that we can correct your misunderstanding.
It is this simple: if the atmosphere is just refractive enough to create the illusion of a Sun that does not change size from noon to dusk, then it will not be just refractive enough when you are almost out of the atmosphere. The OP is clear, simple and completely right.

You can suggest that a coincidence happens with the atmosphere, but you cannot suggest that the same coincidence happens with radically different circumstances, as with both the thick atmosphere we have at sea level and the almost non-existent atmosphere at 36000 or even 70000 feet.

The density changes, yet the composition does as well. This drastically affects how light behaves in the upper atmolayer compared to lower layers.
Just read carefully what you, yourself, wrote. Everything changes and this drastically affects how light behaves. And yet, your conclusion is that the more things change, the more they stay the same.

That may happen in sexual affairs, but not in Science. In Science the more things change, the more things change. If you mysteriously get the exact conditions so that the atmosphere magnifies the Sun in exactly the right way at sea level, and things are drastically different at commercial plane altitudes, things will be drastically different at that height.

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#### 11cookeaw1

##### Re: Big problem with the sun.
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2012, 04:30:45 AM »
Bump,
also why has this been moved to question and answers?