Aussie's is this story true?

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burt

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #240 on: August 30, 2012, 12:56:28 PM »
And the logic that "people are going to get them anyway" is really awful. People make and buy meth anyway, people steal anyway, people rape and murder anyway, might as well make it all legal right?

You tell me my logic is awful. Then you make my point for me. Need I say more?

Like you said, all those illegal things, people do them anyway.

Stealing is morally and fundamentally wrong. You could always ask for help/money, or just get a job.

I would never do meth myself. I'm of the opinion of "to each his own" however. If you wanna rot your teeth, kill exorbitant amounts of brain tissue, and destroy your throat and lungs, by all means, go ahead. There's safer ways to get the type of effect as I understand it, but by all means, it's your body, feel free. Just don't hurt anyone else.

Rape is, in a strange way, analogous to stealing (although it down right disgusts me that anyone would do this). You're taking something without permission. Like I said before, you could always ask.

Murder is the act of taking another human life, and by definition, murder is "killing someone without just cause," in the law's eyes, just cause for killing is if your life is threatened by the person you killed. They still might throw you behind bars. But I digress.

Guns however, are a tool. None of these other things mentioned are analogous to guns. Guns may be a tool of death, but they are a tool nonetheless. Most of the aforementioned are actions, not tools. If someone is threatening my life with a gun, I would feel much safer if I had a gun to defend myself, or if someone nearby had a gun and the gumption to defend me. People will think twice about using a gun against someone if they know there person can just turn around and do the same back. It's called a level playing ground.
Are you an anarchist by any chance?

By my reckoning he is a libertarian.

Anarchism is a little more radical than this.

Anarchism is less radical than libertarianism, it still calls for a community. Libertarianism is chaos.

Libertarianism by defintion is less radical. libertarians don't like the state but they think that some kind state is necassery, hence why they are minarchists, which translates as someone who wants the minimun amount of government necassery.

I guess this would make me Libertarian, by this definition. However, I don't like labels, as my views can change with experience. I do think the state is necessary. I don't like the current position that the US government has placed itself in. There's a lot of cleaning up and fixing to be done. But they, with the help of the media, have got people so stuck on abortion, medicare, and taxes, that no one pays attention to the real issues, like the fact that the government has $15 trillion debt of borrowed/printed money, and $130 trillion debt to the American Taxpayer, and they're spending more money than they make, and they raise the "debt ceiling" once every few months, which means they authorize printing of more money, with no more gold/silver to back it, thereby devastating the value of the dollar, and they're funding global war campaigns on people that cannot effectively defend themselves from our military strength, all with no money. They have no money, and they're just ignoring the fact and letting people vote on where the money that doesn't exist should be spent, while they borrow money from China, who now practically owns the US. The real issues.


it sounds to me that you would really like this site: http://www.alterati.com/blog/

I have listened to various of their podcasts, they seem to bve converging with the principles that you are espousing here, they are a very interesting sub-culture.

Those people seem a bit... (over excited?) about the topics. I'll just simplify and call them extremists. There was a video labeled "Peace Through Vandalism." That's where I stopped reading.

There is a mixture of different views on that website, it is a collection fo podcasts from all over the internet. neach of thjose podcasts do not necasseraly endorse the others, though alterati does endores them all, if only because they encourage the dissemination of alternative views.

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ThinkingMan

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #241 on: August 30, 2012, 01:11:35 PM »
if that's what it sounds like to you, you are playing a very silly game. I am denying criminality being inherent in a human beings (are you religious by anychance sounds like you are trying to co-opt original sin under a new label), unless you mean in the context of mental healt I.E sociopaths. though, crime does exist.
I would have to disagree with you. People are generally pretty selfish and look out for their own needs and that of their dependents before anyone else's. Rape, murder, and stealing has been around since the beginning of humankind. It has nothing to do with original sin or any religious reasons. On the contrary, I would say you seem like the more religious or spiritual one with your optimistic stand point. You don't have to be a sociopath to rape, murder, or steal. It could be any heat of the moment situation or a situation of need (you're starving and you see someone's nice steak sitting unattended on a table).

Because a heat of the moment situation or moment of need is going to cause an otherwise "normal," level headed, good person to rape someone?
Uh, yeah. It's happened. People are pretty susceptible to emotions that cloud judgment and unpredictability.
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In America's society, there's usually not much "need" for these things. People can get a job, buy a hooker, or file a lawsuit (and get money instead of jailtime!). I'm not sure what you're getting at.
Umm... not everyone can just easily "get a job". You seem like a privileged person, I mean "not much need for stealing"? Maybe not for you, but I don't think you can speak for everyone in America. And who said that every behavioral flaw of humankind was necessary? On the flip side of your argument there's not much "need" for the average citizen to own a gun in our society either.

@burt: since there has yet to be a perfect Utopian society where there was never any rape, murder, or theft then I'd have to say that it's inherent human behavior.

I don't know if I would consider myself privileged, although I come from a town where most people view everyone that lives in it as "privileged." I had to work for everything I have, nothing was given to me, including jobs. I had to apply, send out resumes, and qualify to get the job I have. It doesn't pay much, but it does pay the bills. You're right, I can't speak for everyone in America, unemployment is up quite high. Maybe I misspoke back there. But there really isn't need for murdering or raping. And I can't see the average joe going and raping someone in the "heat of the moment." Most people know what "no" means. Unless you're considering the average joe a drunk or a drug addict.

This however, was not the point. We are obviously not going to agree. There also is no gun control debate in America. None  of the politicians even want to talk about it.
When Tom farts, the special gasses released open a sort of worm hole into the past. There Tom is able to freely discuss with Rowbotham all of his ideas and thoughts.

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burt

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #242 on: August 30, 2012, 01:23:23 PM »
if that's what it sounds like to you, you are playing a very silly game. I am denying criminality being inherent in a human beings (are you religious by anychance sounds like you are trying to co-opt original sin under a new label), unless you mean in the context of mental healt I.E sociopaths. though, crime does exist.
I would have to disagree with you. People are generally pretty selfish and look out for their own needs and that of their dependents before anyone else's. Rape, murder, and stealing has been around since the beginning of humankind. It has nothing to do with original sin or any religious reasons. On the contrary, I would say you seem like the more religious or spiritual one with your optimistic stand point. You don't have to be a sociopath to rape, murder, or steal. It could be any heat of the moment situation or a situation of need (you're starving and you see someone's nice steak sitting unattended on a table).

Because a heat of the moment situation or moment of need is going to cause an otherwise "normal," level headed, good person to rape someone?
Uh, yeah. It's happened. People are pretty susceptible to emotions that cloud judgment and unpredictability.
Quote
In America's society, there's usually not much "need" for these things. People can get a job, buy a hooker, or file a lawsuit (and get money instead of jailtime!). I'm not sure what you're getting at.
Umm... not everyone can just easily "get a job". You seem like a privileged person, I mean "not much need for stealing"? Maybe not for you, but I don't think you can speak for everyone in America. And who said that every behavioral flaw of humankind was necessary? On the flip side of your argument there's not much "need" for the average citizen to own a gun in our society either.

@burt: since there has yet to be a perfect Utopian society where there was never any rape, murder, or theft then I'd have to say that it's inherent human behavior.

That's a false inference, in fact it is the other way round. even one exception to the rule makes it not inherent. I am a popperian falsificationist, afterall.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #243 on: August 30, 2012, 03:20:56 PM »
A question for the gun owners here: If a law was passed tomorrow prohibiting gun ownership (or severely restricting it, like the British laws), would you turn in your guns?

Maybe just the ones that are registered.  :P
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.


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Rushy

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #245 on: August 30, 2012, 05:17:54 PM »
Two words for a gun prohibition/collection law: Jury nullification.


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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #247 on: August 30, 2012, 09:09:39 PM »
I am intrigued by their position on ostriches.

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #248 on: August 30, 2012, 10:00:00 PM »
Of course people are the problem. Guns just don't float around shooting things on their own. But people generally aren't responsible enough so might as well take them away.

Rooster, what percentage of people who own firearms are irresponsible with them?  I am not going to research the percentage, but instead, I am going to guess that just a fraction of 1% of people who own a firearm kill someone irresponsibly.  However, you say that, "people generally aren't responsible enough"?  Can you back this up?

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General Douchebag

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #249 on: August 31, 2012, 03:12:29 AM »
Of course people are the problem. Guns just don't float around shooting things on their own. But people generally aren't responsible enough so might as well take them away.

Rooster, what percentage of people who own firearms are irresponsible with them?  I am not going to research the percentage, but instead, I am going to guess that just a fraction of 1% of people who own a firearm kill someone irresponsibly.  However, you say that, "people generally aren't responsible enough"?  Can you back this up?


YOU KEEP SHOTGUNS NEXT TO YOUR KIDS' BEDS.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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ThinkingMan

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #250 on: August 31, 2012, 05:31:37 AM »
Of course people are the problem. Guns just don't float around shooting things on their own. But people generally aren't responsible enough so might as well take them away.

Rooster, what percentage of people who own firearms are irresponsible with them?  I am not going to research the percentage, but instead, I am going to guess that just a fraction of 1% of people who own a firearm kill someone irresponsibly.  However, you say that, "people generally aren't responsible enough"?  Can you back this up?


YOU KEEP SHOTGUNS NEXT TO YOUR KIDS' BEDS.

Don't believe everything you read.
When Tom farts, the special gasses released open a sort of worm hole into the past. There Tom is able to freely discuss with Rowbotham all of his ideas and thoughts.

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burt

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #251 on: August 31, 2012, 07:58:51 AM »
Of course people are the problem. Guns just don't float around shooting things on their own. But people generally aren't responsible enough so might as well take them away.

Rooster, what percentage of people who own firearms are irresponsible with them?  I am not going to research the percentage, but instead, I am going to guess that just a fraction of 1% of people who own a firearm kill someone irresponsibly.  However, you say that, "people generally aren't responsible enough"?  Can you back this up?


YOU KEEP SHOTGUNS NEXT TO YOUR KIDS' BEDS.

Don't believe everything you read.

This.

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #252 on: August 31, 2012, 08:28:08 AM »
Two words for a gun prohibition/collection law: Jury nullification.

Oh, God, not this shit again.  I'm sorry to go off on a tangent here, but jury nullification is by and large incredibly overrated and is far from the magic solution those who promote it almost always seem to think it is.

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Rushy

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #253 on: August 31, 2012, 10:39:10 AM »
I'm sorry

You better be.

but jury nullification is by and large incredibly overrated

What a hipster.

and is far from the magic solution those who promote it almost always seem to think it is.

Promote it? You don't promote rights you already have, Saddam.

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #254 on: August 31, 2012, 01:18:59 PM »
and is far from the magic solution those who promote it almost always seem to think it is.

Promote it? You don't promote rights you already have, Saddam.

I don't think promote means what you think it means I don't know what makes you say that.  People do it all the time.  That ostrich website, for example.

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burt

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« Last Edit: August 31, 2012, 01:37:57 PM by burt »

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #256 on: August 31, 2012, 03:59:45 PM »
http://www.rawilson.com/chaos.html - one of my favouite authors writes about jury nullification

Lots and lots of enthusiastic gushing over how absolutely wonderful and fantastic jury nullification is; absolutely no sober explanation of how any of the grandiose claims he makes result from a jury choosing to acquit a defendant based on the law.

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General Douchebag

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #257 on: September 01, 2012, 03:32:57 AM »
Of course people are the problem. Guns just don't float around shooting things on their own. But people generally aren't responsible enough so might as well take them away.

Rooster, what percentage of people who own firearms are irresponsible with them?  I am not going to research the percentage, but instead, I am going to guess that just a fraction of 1% of people who own a firearm kill someone irresponsibly.  However, you say that, "people generally aren't responsible enough"?  Can you back this up?


YOU KEEP SHOTGUNS NEXT TO YOUR KIDS' BEDS.

Don't believe everything you read.

He doesn't get to use it as a point and then deny it later, either he does it and he's irresponsible or doesn't and his kids are.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #258 on: September 01, 2012, 11:35:29 AM »
Of course people are the problem. Guns just don't float around shooting things on their own. But people generally aren't responsible enough so might as well take them away.

Rooster, what percentage of people who own firearms are irresponsible with them?  I am not going to research the percentage, but instead, I am going to guess that just a fraction of 1% of people who own a firearm kill someone irresponsibly.  However, you say that, "people generally aren't responsible enough"?  Can you back this up?


YOU KEEP SHOTGUNS NEXT TO YOUR KIDS' BEDS.

Don't believe everything you read.

He doesn't get to use it as a point and then deny it later, either he does it and he's irresponsible or doesn't and his kids are.

How old do you think my kids are?

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General Douchebag

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #259 on: September 01, 2012, 11:47:13 AM »
Of course people are the problem. Guns just don't float around shooting things on their own. But people generally aren't responsible enough so might as well take them away.

Rooster, what percentage of people who own firearms are irresponsible with them?  I am not going to research the percentage, but instead, I am going to guess that just a fraction of 1% of people who own a firearm kill someone irresponsibly.  However, you say that, "people generally aren't responsible enough"?  Can you back this up?


YOU KEEP SHOTGUNS NEXT TO YOUR KIDS' BEDS.

Don't believe everything you read.

He doesn't get to use it as a point and then deny it later, either he does it and he's irresponsible or doesn't and his kids are.

How old do you think my kids are?

Under 18?
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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Son of Orospu

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #260 on: September 01, 2012, 11:52:54 AM »
Of course people are the problem. Guns just don't float around shooting things on their own. But people generally aren't responsible enough so might as well take them away.

Rooster, what percentage of people who own firearms are irresponsible with them?  I am not going to research the percentage, but instead, I am going to guess that just a fraction of 1% of people who own a firearm kill someone irresponsibly.  However, you say that, "people generally aren't responsible enough"?  Can you back this up?


YOU KEEP SHOTGUNS NEXT TO YOUR KIDS' BEDS.

Don't believe everything you read.

He doesn't get to use it as a point and then deny it later, either he does it and he's irresponsible or doesn't and his kids are.

How old do you think my kids are?

Under 18?

Incorrect. 

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General Douchebag

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #261 on: September 01, 2012, 12:55:54 PM »
Of course people are the problem. Guns just don't float around shooting things on their own. But people generally aren't responsible enough so might as well take them away.

Rooster, what percentage of people who own firearms are irresponsible with them?  I am not going to research the percentage, but instead, I am going to guess that just a fraction of 1% of people who own a firearm kill someone irresponsibly.  However, you say that, "people generally aren't responsible enough"?  Can you back this up?


YOU KEEP SHOTGUNS NEXT TO YOUR KIDS' BEDS.

Don't believe everything you read.

He doesn't get to use it as a point and then deny it later, either he does it and he's irresponsible or doesn't and his kids are.

How old do you think my kids are?

Under 18?

Incorrect. 

So your original point is bullshit.
No but I'm guess your what? 90? Cause you just so darn mature </sarcasm>

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burt

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #262 on: September 01, 2012, 01:03:50 PM »
http://www.rawilson.com/chaos.html - one of my favouite authors writes about jury nullification

Lots and lots of enthusiastic gushing over how absolutely wonderful and fantastic jury nullification is; absolutely no sober explanation of how any of the grandiose claims he makes result from a jury choosing to acquit a defendant based on the law.

in other words "TL;DR"

Quote from: Robert Anton Wilson
Similarly, in the John Peter Zenger case (New York, 1734), the State proved conclusively that Zenger violated the law by printing anti-government articles in his newspaper, the New York Weekly Journal. The jury simply refused to convict him and nullified the law. That was the beginning of freedom of the press in this country, even before the Revolution and the First Amendment.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2012, 01:06:52 PM by burt »

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #263 on: September 01, 2012, 02:43:25 PM »
My point stands.  The jury chose not to convict that specific man in that specific case.  That has no bearing on the actual law.

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ThinkingMan

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #264 on: September 04, 2012, 07:37:13 AM »
My point stands.  The jury chose not to convict that specific man in that specific case.  That has no bearing on the actual law.

No but I believe Jury Nullification is part of the laws defining what happens in court, and it is a tactic, although it means that the jury is biased, which it is not supposed to be. Although, in some cases, such as the topic at hand, this may be a good thing. Or the subject that burt quoted, where it was a good thing.
When Tom farts, the special gasses released open a sort of worm hole into the past. There Tom is able to freely discuss with Rowbotham all of his ideas and thoughts.

Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #265 on: September 04, 2012, 10:41:56 AM »
Have to love England's way of handling crime.

Defend yourself from a criminal and injure them in the process, get arrested and stand trial.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9516776/Farm-tenant-arrested-after-burglars-shot-was-plagued-by-break-ins.html

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ThinkingMan

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #266 on: September 04, 2012, 11:09:35 AM »
Have to love England's way of handling crime.

Defend yourself from a criminal and injure them in the process, get arrested and stand trial.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9516776/Farm-tenant-arrested-after-burglars-shot-was-plagued-by-break-ins.html

That happens in America as well. If you get attacked by someone or they attempt to rob you, and you end up injuring them, tada, you're the one who's fucked now.
When Tom farts, the special gasses released open a sort of worm hole into the past. There Tom is able to freely discuss with Rowbotham all of his ideas and thoughts.

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #267 on: September 04, 2012, 12:46:21 PM »
Have to love England's way of handling crime.

Defend yourself from a criminal and injure them in the process, get arrested and stand trial.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9516776/Farm-tenant-arrested-after-burglars-shot-was-plagued-by-break-ins.html

That happens in America as well. If you get attacked by someone or they attempt to rob you, and you end up injuring them, tada, you're the one who's fucked now.

The laws vary depending on what state you're in, and while some laws may be more conservative than others, I doubt that this is often the case.

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ThinkingMan

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #268 on: September 04, 2012, 01:18:05 PM »
Have to love England's way of handling crime.

Defend yourself from a criminal and injure them in the process, get arrested and stand trial.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9516776/Farm-tenant-arrested-after-burglars-shot-was-plagued-by-break-ins.html

That happens in America as well. If you get attacked by someone or they attempt to rob you, and you end up injuring them, tada, you're the one who's fucked now.

The laws vary depending on what state you're in, and while some laws may be more conservative than others, I doubt that this is often the case.

I'm in MA, and it's happened to people I know. There's also been cases where lawsuits have been filed and won under similar situations.
When Tom farts, the special gasses released open a sort of worm hole into the past. There Tom is able to freely discuss with Rowbotham all of his ideas and thoughts.

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Rushy

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Re: Aussie's is this story true?
« Reply #269 on: September 04, 2012, 01:50:05 PM »
It is a lesson to homeowners everywhere, really. If someone tries to rob your house and you shoot them, make sure you kill them. If you don't, you'll be the one getting punished.