I think your position is illogical

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Moon squirter

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Re: I think your position is illogical
« Reply #90 on: July 27, 2012, 02:03:53 AM »
Quote from: moonsquirter
1.  OK, you're effectively saying that when something is drawn to scale, the angles change.  I don't think that type of idiotic reasoning requires any further attention.  I will leaving you in your own reality on this one.

Consider that the lands aascend to the eye level of the observer as they recede into the distance. Consider that when a flock of birds flies into the distance it will appear to descend into the horizon. Your diagram does not account for that at all.
In my diagram the observer is a ground level.  If he were at 6 feet it would make next to no difference because of the large scale.  A flock of birds receding would make an angle between the observer. the ground and the birds.  This angle would lessen with distance from the observer as the birds receded, according to:
    θ=tan-1(hight/distance)
My simple diagram can accommodate this perspective calculation just fine.

As your diagram is a geometric mathematical model which does not take perspective or real world conditions into account, it is false. We live in reality, not some mathematical model.
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We do not live in a 2d scale diagram.
My diagram is a two-dimensional intersection of three dimensional space.  It is a model of reality where proportions and angles are preserved. Your brain is unable to comprehend this accurate projection.  My sympathies are with you on this one.

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4.  Snell's law will cause sunlight rays to enter the eye at a steeper angle.  You cannot see light rays hitting the ground. I think you had this conversation a few years ago, and you still don't get it.  It's not my fault if your brain cannot comprehend that light must enter the eye to be detected.
Snell's law would cause the sun to appear to be lower than it actually is. See my post above.
You are sadly wrong about Snell's law and atmospheric refraction.  This is an extremely well understood phenomenon.  Again, your lack of mental capacity is not your fault and sympathies are with you.

Can you answer me one question:  In a scale diagram, do the angles change?
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

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MrT

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Re: I think your position is illogical
« Reply #91 on: July 27, 2012, 04:11:56 AM »
In that picture, the right side is the denser medium. If you rotate it 90 degrees, so that the left becomes the top, the you'll see why your argument makes no sense


Why are we flipping the diagram 90 degrees so that the left becomes the top? The sun's rays are coming in from the side during its setting. If the rays followed the path in your diagram, from left to right, they would appear to the observer that the sun was coming in closer to the ground than it really was.

Bolded section clearly describes why the diagram should be rotated 90 degrees.  This would cause the Sun to appear slightly higher than it is, not lower. 

You say you drew another line to modify the diagram because we don't live in a collum of air.  Well that's the whole reason why the diagram should be rotated.  The line you drew would not have been needed if the image was rotated as noted.  If you simply re-draw the line seperating the two mediums on the diagram, without modifying anything else, you have completely changed the diagram and it is no longer accurately representative of Snell's Law.  The direction the light bends depends on the angle at which the light hits the denser medium.  The line you've drawn would have the light hitting the denser medium (I.E. the atmosphere) at a different angle, and it would therefore bend in the other direction, that is, down.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 06:00:31 AM by MrT »
The above is not meant to be an attack or inflammatory, it's just what I think.

Quote from: Tom Bishop
I don't understand

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ThinkingMan

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Re: I think your position is illogical
« Reply #92 on: July 27, 2012, 05:47:34 AM »
Quote from: ThinkingMan
Because light spreads out over a distance. It's not the eye's fault. There's less light to pick up. If my eye had a zoom lense, I could magnify that light. But I'm not a hawk. And Hawks don't fly at 30,000 feet.

So you agree that eyes have limits then. Thanks

If you perhaps read the whole thing, you would realize that the limit is not related to distance, it's related to how wide the pupil is and how much light can get it. Which has nothing to do with distance. It's a limit on light through a medium. Not a limit on the eye being able to see. I can see the light reflecting off of individual windows on an airliner if the angle is right. I can also see a jet-fighter at high altitude, and a satellite go by, which is very far, and satellites are generally no bigger than a  motorbike, or perhaps a golf cart.

So I see that you again agree that the eyes have limits.

Yes, but not related to distance. You're mincing words. You must be a politician.
When Tom farts, the special gasses released open a sort of worm hole into the past. There Tom is able to freely discuss with Rowbotham all of his ideas and thoughts.

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markjo

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Re: I think your position is illogical
« Reply #93 on: July 27, 2012, 11:56:59 AM »
Why are we flipping the diagram 90 degrees so that the left becomes the top? The sun's rays are coming in from the side during its setting. If the rays followed the path in your diagram, from left to right, they would appear to the observer that the sun was coming in closer to the ground than it really was.

Tom, since you are so fond of pencils in glasses of water, perhaps this would be a more appropriate diagram;
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: I think your position is illogical
« Reply #94 on: July 27, 2012, 12:00:26 PM »
Why are we flipping the diagram 90 degrees so that the left becomes the top? The sun's rays are coming in from the side during its setting. If the rays followed the path in your diagram, from left to right, they would appear to the observer that the sun was coming in closer to the ground than it really was.

Tom, since you are so fond of pencils in glasses of water, perhaps this would be a more appropriate diagram;


Yes, that diagram is more appropriate --- in that diagram as it relates to FET, the earth's atmosphere is the water and the pencil is seen lower than its actual position.

Hence the sun will be lower. Thanks markjo.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 12:05:18 PM by Tom Bishop »

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markjo

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Re: I think your position is illogical
« Reply #95 on: July 27, 2012, 12:08:10 PM »
Why are we flipping the diagram 90 degrees so that the left becomes the top? The sun's rays are coming in from the side during its setting. If the rays followed the path in your diagram, from left to right, they would appear to the observer that the sun was coming in closer to the ground than it really was.

Tom, since you are so fond of pencils in glasses of water, perhaps this would be a more appropriate diagram;


Yes, that diagram is more appropriate --- in that diagram as it relates to FET, the earth's atmosphere is the water and the pencil is seen lower than its actual position.

Hence the sun will be lower. Thanks markjo.

Exactly my point.  The sun will be physically lower, but will appear higher.  Your welcome.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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tautology

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Re: I think your position is illogical
« Reply #96 on: July 27, 2012, 12:13:24 PM »
Quote from: ThinkingMan
You do realize how very little .2 degrees is right? And how far does the light have to go before being deflected that .2 degrees? A millimeter? A meter? A kilometer? You have to take these things into account. It seems, though, that since you're saying "if," that you don't have a real number, that is just a for instance and you actually have no idea how much the atmosphere deflects light.

The point was to illustrate that very small numbers can have large results. If the atmosphere deflects light 0.2 degrees at point A, then the modified path would be a great distance over 14,000 miles at point B, despite 0.2 degrees being a rather small number.

How large would the rim of 0.2 degrees of a pie chart be, if the pie chart had a radius of 14,000 miles?

Let's pretend that it is a 0.2 degree difference. The atmosphere is approximately 11 miles (the number may be off because there is no real boundary), but let's say it was 20 miles. If I had a circle with a radius of 20 miles, and I examined a 0.2 degree slice, the arc length would be 0.07 miles. That's 112 meters! This could not account for the sunrise or sunset in any way.

Snells Law bends the light downwards, hence the light would appear to set into the ground, when in reality it has not.

I don't think you understand how snells law works. When light hits a surface, you can draw two things from this point; a tangent to the surface, and a normal, which would be parallel to the tangent. When light is moving from one medium to a denser one, the angle between the path of the ray of light and the normal decreases. In other words, if a ray of light hit the surface of the atmosphere, it would bend towards the ground, and not up from it, causing it to seem more above us than it actually is.



In that picture, the right side is the denser medium. If you rotate it 90 degrees, so that the left becomes the top, the you'll see why your argument makes no sense

Why are we flipping the diagram 90 degrees so that the left becomes the top? The sun's rays are coming in from the side during its setting. If the rays followed the path in your diagram, from left to right, they would appear to the observer that the sun was coming in closer to the ground than it really was.

Added some illustrations to the diagram:



Took away the upper right quadrant since we don't live in a column of air:



Sir, you are absolutely appalling. Let me show you why.


As you can see, there exists a normal which is 90 degrees (perpendicular) to the interface, the change in medium. The normal intersects the interface at the point which light passes through the interface. Obviously, in this case there is no change in medium yet. Therefore, light does not refract.


In this next picture, we see how light properly refracts. The angle between the normal and the ray of light decreases because light is traveling slower. It is bending down. The angle is decreased, and thus the perceived location of the sun is higher. Because you have no regard for any understanding of physics whatsoever, you have chosen to throw the interface wherever you please and ignored the normal completely. If you alter the interface, the normal changes with the interface as it must always be perpendicular to it at the point where light changes mediums. Thus, the direction to which light bends also changes. I certainly do hope you're not going to argue that Snell's Law is a lie, now that you know that you have been applying it incorrectly.


In this third picture, it is explained that we cannot have such an imaginary situation as you have described with your atrociously altered diagram. If light speeds up, it will travel at a greater angle to the normal than before. But it is not possible because no medium exists that can be any less dense than a medium containing absolutely nothing (vacuum). This is the only case in which the sun will appear "lower" than it actually is. Unfortunately for you, no such case exists.

You seem to have no disagreements about the original picture posted from Wikipedia:


If I re-align your picture to match the orientation of the original picture, you will find that your diagram contradicts what you have already appeared to have accepted as true, based on your support of the Snell's Law:


I have also done you a favour and re-labeled the Normal and Interface, something you have quickly forgotten about. But I must say, you probably haven't forgotten it at all. You simply don't know the concepts of physics as well as you think you do. If you're going to argue against my re-arrangement of your diagram, then I invite you to find another alignment of the diagram that fits your argument, applying the proper concepts I have introduced to you above.

But if you are still not satisfied, here is the current picture being used in the Wikipedia article, conveniently already in the same orientation as your diagram:


I also invite you to properly acquaint yourself with the concepts you claim to support your statements. If you are so blatantly wrong about Snell's Law, I can't begin to imagine what else you might be wrong about.

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ThinkingMan

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Re: I think your position is illogical
« Reply #97 on: July 27, 2012, 12:30:14 PM »
Why are we flipping the diagram 90 degrees so that the left becomes the top? The sun's rays are coming in from the side during its setting. If the rays followed the path in your diagram, from left to right, they would appear to the observer that the sun was coming in closer to the ground than it really was.

Tom, since you are so fond of pencils in glasses of water, perhaps this would be a more appropriate diagram;


Yes, that diagram is more appropriate --- in that diagram as it relates to FET, the earth's atmosphere is the water and the pencil is seen lower than its actual position.

Hence the sun will be lower. Thanks markjo.

Exactly my point.  The sun will be physically lower, but will appear higher.  Your welcome.

Markjo, isn't that what it looks like from OUTSIDE the medium? What would it look like if you within the medium?
When Tom farts, the special gasses released open a sort of worm hole into the past. There Tom is able to freely discuss with Rowbotham all of his ideas and thoughts.

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Moon squirter

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Re: I think your position is illogical
« Reply #98 on: July 27, 2012, 03:19:22 PM »
Yes, that diagram is more appropriate --- in that diagram as it relates to FET, the earth's atmosphere is the water and the pencil is seen lower than its actual position.

Hence the sun will be lower. Thanks markjo.

Sigh... Tom, please remember you are in a less dense medium, capturing light rays that have emerged from an object in a denser medium and at the same comparing the object from the same medium as you are in.  This is near the exact oppose of looking at the sun from inside the earth's atmosphere. 

I think one of the problems here is that atmospheric refraction and light rays are "first person" experiences only (unless they are modelled).  One doesn't so much look at light rays, but "capture" them directly.
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.