Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2012, 10:10:27 AM »
Immaterial

No it's not.  This entire thread we have been discussing due east and west courses.  Your response was explicitly to an example of following such a course.



I came from an oblique angle, so what? my argument still holds. A circle only has one great circle: its circumference. we can test whether there is only one great circle on earth by choosing an arbitrary great circle and then choosing one that runs perpendicular to this, if a plan sets off on one and then the other, if on both runs it ends up back where it started: the earth is not flat, this talk about compassess muddies what is actually going on.

What is actually going on is that we are discussing whether traveling due east or west would cause the traveler to curve on a round Earth.  Welcome to the thread.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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BoatswainsMate

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2012, 10:17:47 AM »


If I start to travel on that circular path. Tell me how and why my gyro would not detect that I am turning? Do you see my problem. Moving in that circular path on a flat plane goes against what a gyro is used for and how it works. My gyro would show that I am changing course, but according to FE my gyro should not show that I am changing course. MY magnetic compass might show that North is still in the same direction and that I am heading west, but my gyro is not going to show that. The gyro will sense the turn because I am on a flat plane and cause my true heading to not be 270 anymore. The gyro is not sensitive to the magnetic north it is basing my direction off of more or less exact north such as the north star. If you look at your gyro repeater on the bridge wing we have a sight glass that we use to see the stars while viewing our gyro's reading. That is the easiest way to obtain gyro error (using the north star since it is always at 000 north) my magnetic compass is independent off the gyro, factoring in magnetic deviation and variation should cause my true heading to match my magnetic heading. On a flat plane following that path my true heading would not match.

On a sphere this is completely possible because the circle that I am traveling in is not exactly horizontal to magnetic north. I am not traveling parellel to magnetic north and therefore the curve I am traveling on a sphere with causes my gyro and magnetic compass to match after factoring in deviation and variation. This is why deviation and variation change according to where you are on the sphere. As you move to greater longitudes your position on the sphere changes causing your curved path you are traveling on the change, 0 deviation at the equator and moving according to your longitude. After factoring in that deviation your magnetic heading should match your true heading. Your true heading is going to differ from your magnetic heading because the Earth as a sphere is not exactly straight up and down. The north star is not going to be exactly over magnetic north, that is why you have two compasses (magnetic, and true) your gyro cannot work properly on a flat plane where magnetic north is exactly true north, that just makes no navigational sense. Why would I need a gyro at all then?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 10:26:45 AM by BoatswainsMate »

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burt

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2012, 10:18:12 AM »
Immaterial

No it's not.  This entire thread we have been discussing due east and west courses.  Your response was explicitly to an example of following such a course.



I came from an oblique angle, so what? my argument still holds. A circle only has one great circle: its circumference. we can test whether there is only one great circle on earth by choosing an arbitrary great circle and then choosing one that runs perpendicular to this, if a plan sets off on one and then the other, if on both runs it ends up back where it started: the earth is not flat, this talk about compassess muddies what is actually going on.

What is actually going on is that we are discussing whether traveling due east or west would cause the traveler to curve on a round Earth.  Welcome to the thread.

bur, you are clearly not listening. a plane or boat on a flat earth would always curve, but on a round earth if you go on the path of a greatcircle (there are infintiy of these), you won't, it does not matter that the equater is the only one that runs from one compass point to another, like I said compass discussion = moot

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2012, 10:24:11 AM »


If I start to travel on that circular path. Tell me how and why my gyro would not detect that I am turning? Do you see my problem. Moving in that circular path on a flat plane goes against what a gyro is used for and how it works. My gyro would show that I am changing course, but according to FE my gyro should not show that I am changing course. MY magnetic compass might show that North is still in the same direction and that I am heading west, but my gyro is not going to show that. The gyro will sense the turn because I am on a flat plane and cause my true heading to not be 270 anymore. The gyro is not sensitive to the magnetic north it is basing my direction off of more or less exact north such as the north star. If you look at your gyro repeater on the bridge wing we have a sight glass that we use to see the stars while viewing our gyro's reading. That is the easiest way to obtain gyro error (using the north star since it is always at 000 north) my magnetic compass is independent off the gyro, factoring in magnetic deviation and variation should cause my true heading to match my magnetic heading. On a flat plane following that path my true heading would not match.

On a sphere this is completely possible because the circle that I am traveling in is not exactly horizontal to magnetic north. I am not traveling parellel to magnetic north and therefore the curve I am traveling on a sphere with causes my gyro and magnetic compass to match after factoring in deviation and variation.

You are missing the point.  The same thing would happen on a round Earth.  You're traveling a curved path one way or the other.  If a gyro should detect a curve, and it doesn't on a RE, it is failing as an instrument.

Immaterial

No it's not.  This entire thread we have been discussing due east and west courses.  Your response was explicitly to an example of following such a course.



I came from an oblique angle, so what? my argument still holds. A circle only has one great circle: its circumference. we can test whether there is only one great circle on earth by choosing an arbitrary great circle and then choosing one that runs perpendicular to this, if a plan sets off on one and then the other, if on both runs it ends up back where it started: the earth is not flat, this talk about compassess muddies what is actually going on.

What is actually going on is that we are discussing whether traveling due east or west would cause the traveler to curve on a round Earth.  Welcome to the thread.

bur, you are clearly not listening. a plane or boat on a flat earth would always curve, but on a round earth if you go on the path of a greatcircle (there are infintiy of these), you won't, it does not matter that the equater is the only one that runs from one compass point to another, like I said compass discussion = moot


This is a different argument from the one presented in the OP.  I'm trying to help the guy who works on a boat understand that a boat will always curve when traveling due east or west on a round Earth, everywhere but at the equator itself.  You are the one muddying the conversation by talking about infinite great circles.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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burt

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2012, 10:27:46 AM »


If I start to travel on that circular path. Tell me how and why my gyro would not detect that I am turning? Do you see my problem. Moving in that circular path on a flat plane goes against what a gyro is used for and how it works. My gyro would show that I am changing course, but according to FE my gyro should not show that I am changing course. MY magnetic compass might show that North is still in the same direction and that I am heading west, but my gyro is not going to show that. The gyro will sense the turn because I am on a flat plane and cause my true heading to not be 270 anymore. The gyro is not sensitive to the magnetic north it is basing my direction off of more or less exact north such as the north star. If you look at your gyro repeater on the bridge wing we have a sight glass that we use to see the stars while viewing our gyro's reading. That is the easiest way to obtain gyro error (using the north star since it is always at 000 north) my magnetic compass is independent off the gyro, factoring in magnetic deviation and variation should cause my true heading to match my magnetic heading. On a flat plane following that path my true heading would not match.

On a sphere this is completely possible because the circle that I am traveling in is not exactly horizontal to magnetic north. I am not traveling parellel to magnetic north and therefore the curve I am traveling on a sphere with causes my gyro and magnetic compass to match after factoring in deviation and variation.

You are missing the point.  The same thing would happen on a round Earth.  You're traveling a curved path one way or the other.  If a gyro should detect a curve, and it doesn't on a RE, it is failing as an instrument.

Immaterial

No it's not.  This entire thread we have been discussing due east and west courses.  Your response was explicitly to an example of following such a course.



I came from an oblique angle, so what? my argument still holds. A circle only has one great circle: its circumference. we can test whether there is only one great circle on earth by choosing an arbitrary great circle and then choosing one that runs perpendicular to this, if a plan sets off on one and then the other, if on both runs it ends up back where it started: the earth is not flat, this talk about compassess muddies what is actually going on.

What is actually going on is that we are discussing whether traveling due east or west would cause the traveler to curve on a round Earth.  Welcome to the thread.

bur, you are clearly not listening. a plane or boat on a flat earth would always curve, but on a round earth if you go on the path of a greatcircle (there are infintiy of these), you won't, it does not matter that the equater is the only one that runs from one compass point to another, like I said compass discussion = moot


This is a different argument from the one presented in the OP.  I'm trying to help the guy who works on a boat understand that a boat will always curve when traveling due east or west on a round Earth, everywhere but at the equator itself.  You are the one muddying the conversation by talking about infinite great circles.

ok I officially duck out, because without varification, through the above test. everything else is academic. but carry on.

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burt

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2012, 10:31:24 AM »


If I start to travel on that circular path. Tell me how and why my gyro would not detect that I am turning? Do you see my problem. Moving in that circular path on a flat plane goes against what a gyro is used for and how it works. My gyro would show that I am changing course, but according to FE my gyro should not show that I am changing course. MY magnetic compass might show that North is still in the same direction and that I am heading west, but my gyro is not going to show that. The gyro will sense the turn because I am on a flat plane and cause my true heading to not be 270 anymore. The gyro is not sensitive to the magnetic north it is basing my direction off of more or less exact north such as the north star. If you look at your gyro repeater on the bridge wing we have a sight glass that we use to see the stars while viewing our gyro's reading. That is the easiest way to obtain gyro error (using the north star since it is always at 000 north) my magnetic compass is independent off the gyro, factoring in magnetic deviation and variation should cause my true heading to match my magnetic heading. On a flat plane following that path my true heading would not match.

On a sphere this is completely possible because the circle that I am traveling in is not exactly horizontal to magnetic north. I am not traveling parellel to magnetic north and therefore the curve I am traveling on a sphere with causes my gyro and magnetic compass to match after factoring in deviation and variation.

You are missing the point.  The same thing would happen on a round Earth.  You're traveling a curved path one way or the other.  If a gyro should detect a curve, and it doesn't on a RE, it is failing as an instrument.

Immaterial

No it's not.  This entire thread we have been discussing due east and west courses.  Your response was explicitly to an example of following such a course.



I came from an oblique angle, so what? my argument still holds. A circle only has one great circle: its circumference. we can test whether there is only one great circle on earth by choosing an arbitrary great circle and then choosing one that runs perpendicular to this, if a plan sets off on one and then the other, if on both runs it ends up back where it started: the earth is not flat, this talk about compassess muddies what is actually going on.

What is actually going on is that we are discussing whether traveling due east or west would cause the traveler to curve on a round Earth.  Welcome to the thread.

bur, you are clearly not listening. a plane or boat on a flat earth would always curve, but on a round earth if you go on the path of a greatcircle (there are infintiy of these), you won't, it does not matter that the equater is the only one that runs from one compass point to another, like I said compass discussion = moot


This is a different argument from the one presented in the OP.  I'm trying to help the guy who works on a boat understand that a boat will always curve when traveling due east or west on a round Earth, everywhere but at the equator itself.  You are the one muddying the conversation by talking about infinite great circles.

It will curve, if not it would intersect with the equator at some point. so I agree with you, your truthiness. and therefore would not be running due east or west.

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BoatswainsMate

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2012, 10:43:10 AM »
Wrong burt, sorry. in reality my gyro would sense that turn. You cannot change true or magnetic north to your liking. Basically the turn you would do on a flat Earth does not match the curve you follow around a spherical one.

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burt

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2012, 10:48:44 AM »
Wrong burt, sorry. in reality my gyro would sense that turn. You cannot change true or magnetic north to your liking. Basically the turn you would do on a flat Earth does not match the curve you follow around a spherical one.

it would have to be a very sensitive gyroscope. you are using the same argument that a flat earther does for the non-curvature of the earth when you delineate an imaginary line on say a picture of an ocean running parrelell to the horizon (it does look flat, because the earth is huge) the curve is very subtle.

the closer you get to the north pole the more obvious it becomes.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 10:50:34 AM by burt »

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2012, 10:49:52 AM »
Wrong burt, sorry. in reality my gyro would sense that turn. You cannot change true or magnetic north to your liking. Basically the turn you would do on a flat Earth does not match the curve you follow around a spherical one.

Again, if your gyro would sense that turn, and it doesn't, then it is not functioning properly.  That turn exists whether the Earth is round or flat.

I apologize for my failure in helping you understand here.  I just don't see any way to make the point more lucid.  :(
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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burt

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2012, 10:57:02 AM »
Wrong burt, sorry. in reality my gyro would sense that turn. You cannot change true or magnetic north to your liking. Basically the turn you would do on a flat Earth does not match the curve you follow around a spherical one.

Again, if your gyro would sense that turn, and it doesn't, then it is not functioning properly.  That turn exists whether the Earth is round or flat.

I apologize for my failure in helping you understand here.  I just don't see any way to make the point more lucid.  :(

I'll try:

Imagine at the equater there is no curve, now imagine a path parrelell to the equator half way between the equater and the north pole the circle gets smaller. say now you are are a mile away from the north pole, still running parrallell to the equator, you would have to turn to navigate around the north pole to get back where started

now say you are standing righ next to an actual pole right where the north pole is, you would have to turn to go around it. simple. there is a curve.

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burt

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2012, 11:10:04 AM »
Wrong burt, sorry. in reality my gyro would sense that turn. You cannot change true or magnetic north to your liking. Basically the turn you would do on a flat Earth does not match the curve you follow around a spherical one.
are you arguing whether the curve matches, or whether there is one; the curving on a  round earth would be a lot less than one on a flat earth. or so I assume.

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BoatswainsMate

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2012, 12:13:00 PM »
Wrong burt, sorry. in reality my gyro would sense that turn. You cannot change true or magnetic north to your liking. Basically the turn you would do on a flat Earth does not match the curve you follow around a spherical one.
are you arguing whether the curve matches, or whether there is one; the curving on a  round earth would be a lot less than one on a flat earth. or so I assume.

The curve you do on a sphere is of course going to be different then one you would make on a flat Earth. They are two completely different shapes and have two completely different navigational properties. Let me try to explain how navigators view True headings, magnetic headings, and the Earth.

True headings are independent of Earth in a way. I am not saying that we can judge north, south, east, and west in space, but true north is based on celestial objects that do not change with the Earth. Magnetic north is always changing, the rotation of the Earth on it's tilted axis. We use true headings so that we can maintain our track line easier. I do not know what you think you know, but if we have a track line that is at 086 true we will follow that track line at 086 true, we will not go in any other direction. If I need to sail from San francisco to Mito I know that I need to travel west. Mito is around a 250 true from San Fran, I can now make a series of leg's in that general direction ranging from 280-220, is it not possible to just go straight to Mito because the Earth is of course a sphere, I will curve in an arc like fashion as I travel around it. In no way will I make a circle just an arc. and A pretty small arc at that. If you try to do the same thing on a flat Earth map your semi circle that you have to make is flippen crazy. You basically are keeping your prop at right standard for the duration of the voyage. Also take a look at the circle you would do on a flat Earth, now look at the curve you make on a sphere.. they are flip flopped. You would not do and upside down arc to get across the north pacific, you would do that if you were on the south pacific!

I know that because on a flat plane you cannot make a circle without turning. It is geometrically impossible to make a circle on a flat object without turning. On a sphere, however, it is completely possible to travel in an arc without needing to turn, it is simply the shape of a sphere that allows this to happen. Can you say that on a flat plane you can make a semi circle or a full circle without turning? you can walk in one direction and create a circle? Do you understand how silly that sounds. Now ask yourself if walking around a sphere you can make a circle yes? If you walk around a portion of that sphere you more or less walk in an arc yes? not quite creating a circle, but you would if you walk in the same general direction without changing it dramatically (that would skew your circle and cause it to change paths on a sphere) If you are on a flat plane and you walk in a circle you are always changing your direction dramatically. If you decided to just keep walking as straight as you can possible make yourself walk you would now break that circle.

Now if you had a gyro in your hand calibrated to true north and you followed true north on a flat plan, why would you create a circle by stay at 000 true? on a sphere it makes perfect sense, you are going around an object, on a flat earth what are you going around to make that circle? the center of the flat plane? that is laughable because you have to turn to create that circle. True north is not some magical thing that defies the laws of geometry.

So just to clarify, to you Burt, no matter what these people say to you, take it from a navigator. If I tell you that if I am traveling to Mito Japan and on a westerly course of 250 true I am always going to be able to maintain 250 true, my magnetic compass should always come out to be 250 true after variation and deviation. I will not make a circle to get there, I will travel in a small arc only because I am on a sphere. If I were traveling on a flat Earth even though magnetic north is at the center making a semi circle as prominent as they show is not possible. The circle that you travel around a sphere is different from the circle you would travel on a flat plane. 

If magnetic north/true north at the center of the flat plane no matter what you do, you have to turn. Even if your magnetic compass is showing that you are still going 270, you have to turn! that is such a conundrum it is not even funny. How do you explain turning without changing heading? impossible. On a tilted sphere going 270 you will travel in an arc (or curve whatever you want to call it that would eventually cause a circle) because 270 true is not 270 magnetic on Earth. the earth itself cuases you to create the arc,curve whatever great circle. so what the hell would cause you to do a circle on a flat plane without turning? Do you see what I am saying here burt? how is that possible to turn on a flat plane without changing heading... what is that flat plane doing? is it wobbling? tilting? rotating? flipping? what in the world is going on with that flat plane?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 12:30:18 PM by BoatswainsMate »

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2012, 12:29:01 PM »
Wrong burt, sorry. in reality my gyro would sense that turn. You cannot change true or magnetic north to your liking. Basically the turn you would do on a flat Earth does not match the curve you follow around a spherical one.
are you arguing whether the curve matches, or whether there is one; the curving on a  round earth would be a lot less than one on a flat earth. or so I assume.

The curve you do on a sphere is of course going to be different then one you would make on a flat Earth. They are two completely different shapes and have two completely different navigational properties. Let me try to explain how navigators view True headings, magnetic headings, and the Earth.

True headings are independent of Earth in a way. I am not saying that we can judge north, south, east, and west in space, but true north is based on celestial objects that do not change with the Earth. Magnetic north is always changing, the rotation of the Earth on it's tilted axis. We use true headings so that we can maintain our track line easier. I do not know what you think you know, but if we have a track line that is at 086 true we will follow that track line at 086 true, we will not go in any other direction. If I need to sail from San francisco to Mito I know that I need to travel west. Mito is around a 250 true from San Fran, I can now make a series of leg's in that general direction ranging from 280-220, is it not possible to just go straight to Mito because the Earth is of course a sphere, I will curve in an arc like fashion as I travel around it. In no way will I make a circle just an arc. and A pretty small arc at that. If you try to do the same thing on a flat Earth map your semi circle that you have to make is flippen crazy. You basically are keeping your prop at right standard for the duration of the voyage.

I know that because on a flat plane you cannot make a circle without turning. It is geometrically impossible to make a circle on a flat object without turning. On a sphere, however, it is completely possible to travel in an arc without needing to turn, it is simply the shape of a sphere that allows this to happen. Can you say that on a flat plane you can make a semi circle or a full circle without turning? you can walk in one direction and create a circle? Do you understand how silly that sounds. Now ask yourself if walking around a sphere you can make a circle yes? If you walk around a portion of that sphere you more or less walk in an arc yes? not quite creating a circle, but you would if you walk in the same general direction without changing it dramatically (that would skew your circle and cause it to change paths on a sphere) If you are on a flat plane and you walk in a circle you are always changing your direction dramatically. If you decided to just keep walking as straight as you can possible make yourself walk you would now break that circle.

Now if you had a gyro in your hand calibrated to true north and you followed true north on a flat plan, why would you create a circle by stay at 000 true? on a sphere it makes perfect sense, you are going around an object, on a flat earth what are you going around to make that circle? the center of the flat plane? that is laughable because you have to turn to create that circle. True north is not some magical thing that defies the laws of geometry.

So just to clarify, to you Burt, no matter what these people say to you, take it from a navigator. If I tell you that if I am traveling to Mito Japan and on a westerly course of 250 true I am always going to be able to maintain 250 true, my magnetic compass should always come out to be 250 true after variation and deviation. I will not make a circle to get there, I will travel in a small arc only because I am on a sphere. If I were traveling on a flat Earth even though magnetic north is at the center making a semi circle as prominent as they show is not possible. The circle that you travel around a sphere is different from the circle you would travel on a flat plane. 

If magnetic north/true north at the center of the flat plane no matter what you do, you have to turn. Even if your magnetic compass is showing that you are still going 270, you have to turn! that is such a conundrum it is not even funny. How do you explain turning without changing heading? impossible. On a tilted sphere going 270 you will travel in an arc (or curve whatever you want to call it that would eventually cause a circle) because 270 true is not 270 magnetic on Earth. the earth itself cuases you to create the arc,curve whatever great circle. so what the hell would cause you to do a circle on a flat plane without turning? Do you see what I am saying here burt? how is that possible to turn on a flat plane without changing heading... what is that flat plane doing? is it wobbling? tilting? rotating? flipping? what in the world is going on with that flat plane?

Even using the north pole as your guide means you are orienting yourself to the center.  Magnetic or celestial north, it makes no difference.  This has nothing to do with navigating east or west using ground-based guides vs celestial guides.  It makes no difference.  It's a matter of geometry.  If you travel due east or due west on a sphere, anywhere but right on the equator, you are not traveling in a straight line.  You are traveling in a curve.  Your craft is subtly turning left or right the whole time.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

?

BoatswainsMate

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2012, 01:11:40 PM »
Wrong burt, sorry. in reality my gyro would sense that turn. You cannot change true or magnetic north to your liking. Basically the turn you would do on a flat Earth does not match the curve you follow around a spherical one.
are you arguing whether the curve matches, or whether there is one; the curving on a  round earth would be a lot less than one on a flat earth. or so I assume.

The curve you do on a sphere is of course going to be different then one you would make on a flat Earth. They are two completely different shapes and have two completely different navigational properties. Let me try to explain how navigators view True headings, magnetic headings, and the Earth.

True headings are independent of Earth in a way. I am not saying that we can judge north, south, east, and west in space, but true north is based on celestial objects that do not change with the Earth. Magnetic north is always changing, the rotation of the Earth on it's tilted axis. We use true headings so that we can maintain our track line easier. I do not know what you think you know, but if we have a track line that is at 086 true we will follow that track line at 086 true, we will not go in any other direction. If I need to sail from San francisco to Mito I know that I need to travel west. Mito is around a 250 true from San Fran, I can now make a series of leg's in that general direction ranging from 280-220, is it not possible to just go straight to Mito because the Earth is of course a sphere, I will curve in an arc like fashion as I travel around it. In no way will I make a circle just an arc. and A pretty small arc at that. If you try to do the same thing on a flat Earth map your semi circle that you have to make is flippen crazy. You basically are keeping your prop at right standard for the duration of the voyage.

I know that because on a flat plane you cannot make a circle without turning. It is geometrically impossible to make a circle on a flat object without turning. On a sphere, however, it is completely possible to travel in an arc without needing to turn, it is simply the shape of a sphere that allows this to happen. Can you say that on a flat plane you can make a semi circle or a full circle without turning? you can walk in one direction and create a circle? Do you understand how silly that sounds. Now ask yourself if walking around a sphere you can make a circle yes? If you walk around a portion of that sphere you more or less walk in an arc yes? not quite creating a circle, but you would if you walk in the same general direction without changing it dramatically (that would skew your circle and cause it to change paths on a sphere) If you are on a flat plane and you walk in a circle you are always changing your direction dramatically. If you decided to just keep walking as straight as you can possible make yourself walk you would now break that circle.

Now if you had a gyro in your hand calibrated to true north and you followed true north on a flat plan, why would you create a circle by stay at 000 true? on a sphere it makes perfect sense, you are going around an object, on a flat earth what are you going around to make that circle? the center of the flat plane? that is laughable because you have to turn to create that circle. True north is not some magical thing that defies the laws of geometry.

So just to clarify, to you Burt, no matter what these people say to you, take it from a navigator. If I tell you that if I am traveling to Mito Japan and on a westerly course of 250 true I am always going to be able to maintain 250 true, my magnetic compass should always come out to be 250 true after variation and deviation. I will not make a circle to get there, I will travel in a small arc only because I am on a sphere. If I were traveling on a flat Earth even though magnetic north is at the center making a semi circle as prominent as they show is not possible. The circle that you travel around a sphere is different from the circle you would travel on a flat plane. 

If magnetic north/true north at the center of the flat plane no matter what you do, you have to turn. Even if your magnetic compass is showing that you are still going 270, you have to turn! that is such a conundrum it is not even funny. How do you explain turning without changing heading? impossible. On a tilted sphere going 270 you will travel in an arc (or curve whatever you want to call it that would eventually cause a circle) because 270 true is not 270 magnetic on Earth. the earth itself cuases you to create the arc,curve whatever great circle. so what the hell would cause you to do a circle on a flat plane without turning? Do you see what I am saying here burt? how is that possible to turn on a flat plane without changing heading... what is that flat plane doing? is it wobbling? tilting? rotating? flipping? what in the world is going on with that flat plane?

Even using the north pole as your guide means you are orienting yourself to the center.  Magnetic or celestial north, it makes no difference.  This has nothing to do with navigating east or west using ground-based guides vs celestial guides.  It makes no difference.  It's a matter of geometry.  If you travel due east or due west on a sphere, anywhere but right on the equator, you are not traveling in a straight line.  You are traveling in a curve.  Your craft is subtly turning left or right the whole time.

I am in no way arguing that you do not travel on a curve while on a sphere where are you getting that from???? In fact I put it pretty clearly in my writing about the curving path we travel on while on a sphere.

now tell me why we travel in a circle on a flat plane!

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2012, 01:13:53 PM »
now tell me why we travel in a circle on a flat plane!

For essentially the same reason.  North is oriented at the center of the disk and east and west are at right angles to it.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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BoatswainsMate

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2012, 02:20:40 PM »
now tell me why we travel in a circle on a flat plane!

For essentially the same reason.  North is oriented at the center of the disk and east and west are at right angles to it.

How can it be the same reason? We are talking about a sphere vs a flat plane.

Round Earth- The Magnetic north is situated on the top part of a sphere that is tilted on it's axis rotating. The Earth rotates along its axis as a vessel is traveling around the sphere in any direction, thus not traveling in a straight line anywhere, but an arc due to the shape and tilted axis's of the Earth. A circle is made as the vessel travel around the sphere.

Key words from that are around the sphere

Flat Earth- Magnetic north is in the center of a flat plane. A vessel traveling on that flat plane apparently would also do a circle around the magnetic north that is located in the center. Devoid of any type of course changes the circle will be completed.

how in the flippen world does the vessel traveling around a flat plane create that circle without changing direction at all? you are on a flat plane There is nothing causing that vessel to move in a circle without a change in direction! just forget about headings for a second. Just think path's of travel. To do a circle on a desk,floor, or any flat object you change your path of travel to complete that circle. Now on a sphere you can walk around the sphere without generally changing your path of travel and complete the circle around the sphere.

There is the difference! on a sphere you travel around it creating a circle. On a flat plane you do not have the luxury of walking around it unless you walk over the edge under the plane then back to the top of it where you started. Doing the circle you suggest without changing direction is impossible. you are on a flat plane.. no roundness, just flatness. Stick a giant pole in the middle of that flat plane so that you can see it from thousands of miles away. Now mark where you started, walk around that pole. When you get back to where you started you just made a circle, you constantly turned so that you are able to complete 360 degrees around that pole. you did not have the luxury of being able to be on a sphere and mark your starting point, then walk directly away from that pole and eventually see it pop up over the horizon as you come from the back side of the sphere to where you started. On the flat plane as you walked around that pole you can keep it in view the whole time, maybe you did not notice that you walked in a circle constantly turning, but you did because you came back to your starting point, hence completing a 360 degree circle around that pole... you had to turn or els that circle would not be completed. you have to turn to complete that type of circle. Once again you cannot complete the type of circle you make on a sphere because on a flat plane you do not have that luxury.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 02:32:23 PM by BoatswainsMate »

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squevil

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #46 on: July 14, 2012, 04:05:32 PM »
you guys have got this wrong. the fes has a strong point here. i said at the start that you cant prove it either way.
now remember the point about only walking 20 feet from the pole and you walk in a circle? well you said in a greater distance its different. well its not, the only difference is that the circle is sooo big you wouldnt notice it. now we have established that you will turn on a round earth now understand that if a ship sailed from liverpool to new york it wouldnt even notice the curve.

now here is a thought experiment;
take a ship with sensitive enough equipment to detect this curve. measure it at 20 degrees north and then at 20 degrees south over a length of say 200 miles. if both curves match you have a round earth. however if the southern curve is flatter then so is the earth (flat that is).

boaty do you not agree with this? both curve, yes slightly differently because the sphere as essentially 2 arks. however from a navigational point of view (or not as the point im trying to make) they both curve equally in the northern hemisphere. only by doing the thought experiment will you actually gather the data you will need to prove either theory. try to remember the circle 20 yards from the north pole, that will help you understand what im trying to say. 

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BoatswainsMate

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #47 on: July 14, 2012, 04:39:13 PM »
you guys have got this wrong. the fes has a strong point here. i said at the start that you cant prove it either way.
now remember the point about only walking 20 feet from the pole and you walk in a circle? well you said in a greater distance its different. well its not, the only difference is that the circle is sooo big you wouldnt notice it. now we have established that you will turn on a round earth now understand that if a ship sailed from liverpool to new york it wouldnt even notice the curve.

now here is a thought experiment;
take a ship with sensitive enough equipment to detect this curve. measure it at 20 degrees north and then at 20 degrees south over a length of say 200 miles. if both curves match you have a round earth. however if the southern curve is flatter then so is the earth (flat that is).

boaty do you not agree with this? both curve, yes slightly differently because the sphere as essentially 2 arks. however from a navigational point of view (or not as the point im trying to make) they both curve equally in the northern hemisphere. only by doing the thought experiment will you actually gather the data you will need to prove either theory. try to remember the circle 20 yards from the north pole, that will help you understand what im trying to say.

Squevil, the curves won't match.  Ill explain why later, bust with my daughter right now.

hey Squevil, I got a few minutes so I will try this out. first off the curve you make on a flat Earth is opposite of what you actually make on a round Earth (the arc is opposite). The arc you make on a flat Earth has to be more prominent because the distances between land masses on a FE map are a little off compared to a round earth chart.

Sorry, Jedi is crying Ill try to explain more later.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 05:43:45 PM by BoatswainsMate »

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squevil

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #48 on: July 14, 2012, 06:00:19 PM »
i know you want to finish what you were saying but you are assuming what the flat earth map is. theoretically the arks surely are the same angles?

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squevil

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2012, 06:01:19 PM »
this would be so much easier to talk about with a real ball and hand gestures :P preferably at the local inn over a shandy

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BoatswainsMate

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #50 on: July 14, 2012, 07:59:25 PM »
this would be so much easier to talk about with a real ball and hand gestures :P preferably at the local inn over a shandy

OMG!!!

I know right, being able to express my thoughts through word of mouth and visual hand gesters would make this so much easier.

Still, on a flat plane why would you move in a circle without changing heading?

I might have to not reply for a while.. I am three rum and pineapple juice's down and geting drunker by the minute. I promise I will respond to any rebuttals to my idea that flat Earth cannot have the same navigational standards as a sphere. Just give me some time,. I am having some fun drinnking.

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squevil

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #51 on: July 14, 2012, 08:05:26 PM »
do you follow a compass heading? because that will remain the same. as i havnt sailed the seven seas i maybe misunderstanding you.

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BoatswainsMate

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #52 on: July 14, 2012, 08:19:53 PM »
do you follow a compass heading? because that will remain the same. as i havnt sailed the seven seas i maybe misunderstanding you.

Don't use magnetic headings as a primary means of direction, there is a difference between true and magnetic. Although some might not agree, there is a very distinct difference between the two.

Sorry, my daughter is being funny. Ill have more time tonight after Jedi gores to sleep.

Hey, ok so Don't think about headings anymore Squevil. I most likely confused everyone when I was using headings and stuff so just think about what kind of a path you travel on a sphere compared to a flat plane and why. Now think about the two different types of circles you are making. On a sphere you are able to go around it (please stop with the "oh if you are at 20 feet from the north pole" I don't care because I am talking about the sphere in general not one part of it) Now on a flat plane you cannot go around it. So you are forced to make a flat circle (if you need an example just put something in the middle of your desk call it the north pole and do 270 around it magnetic, but dont think about the heading think about the shape you make) Now as you make that circle you are turning, I don't care what heading you are doing, you are still making a turn. Now explain to me how it is possible to turn that much without knowing it or a gyro realizing it. You turn in a different way on a sphere simply because it is a sphere you are going around it in a arc, rhumb line, or great circle take your pick.

The point is Squevil, you are doing a gradual arc around a sphere completing a circle as you travel around the object. On a flat plane you cannot go around the object so the circle you are doing is flat and you would have to turn! so how are you making a circle on a flat plane without turning!
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 04:45:44 AM by BoatswainsMate »

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BoatswainsMate

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #53 on: July 15, 2012, 09:48:59 AM »


Do you see that the two circles you are doing are different. On the sphere you can stay in a general direction while circling the sphere around the point.

On the flat plane you circles that point by turning to create the circle. Regardless of what your heading shows you have to turn to make that circle. If not then what affect is causing that person to not turn while making that circle around the point.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #54 on: July 15, 2012, 10:48:39 AM »
I give up.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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BoatswainsMate

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #55 on: July 15, 2012, 11:06:15 AM »
Sorry Roundy, im I am not grasping something that is pretty clear then that is my fault. I will try to think more about this.

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squevil

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #56 on: July 15, 2012, 12:32:49 PM »
they are the same boaty only on a globe it appears different but its actually the same. you cant just dismiss the 20 foot circle round the pole because it is exactly what you are doing but on a  larger scale.
get a compass and draw a circle on a  flat plane. now do the same on a  ball. both travel exactly as described and both travel  in a circle. the only difference is that on a globe you make 2 arks at the same time and the item traveling is essentially leaning at an angle from the pole.
the only only time you can travel in a strait line on a  globe is if you bisect it. unless the path you take cuts the sphere exactly in half you will always need to ark the path you take. also you could if you are at a right angle to the pole but because you never are (unless you are bisecting it). i can draw a diagram to explain this better but im just about to pop out so ill do it later for you. but for now try and imagine a tennis ball;

you cut the ball 3 quarters of the way up (or half way between the equator and the pole). in order to cut a strait line you must cut it at a right angle. however imagine you are stood in the same spot, you are actually stood at a 45 degree angle from the pole. now cut the ball at a 45 degree angle. you will have to bisect the ball to cut it in a strait line. like i said its easier to demonstrate it with a drawing.

however the flat earth will not ark if you travel NW to SW and you should be moving in a strait line. but on a globe there would be an ark, but as far as i know no instrument is going to detect this so its just another thought experiment.


so remember bisecting a sphere is a strait line, however if you are not traveling at a 90 degree angle you are traveling in a circle.
at least thats my understanding

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BoatswainsMate

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #57 on: July 15, 2012, 01:36:33 PM »
STOP TRYING TO TELL ME HOW WE MOVE ON A SPHERE I KNOW WE DO NOT MOVE IN A STRAIGHT LINE!  >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o< >o<

Good now that we have that out of the way.

Hey Squevil, I understand how a sphere works and how you travel on it. You are always a angle because the sphere is not flat. That is a part of my dilemma. Because you are standing on an angle and because you do not travel in a straight line unless at the equator you make a circle around the globe in a rhumb line or great circle fashion.

Now once again, explain how that works on a flat Earth. Explain how on a flat Earth you can do a circle without changing direction. I thought my picutre I made is pretty clear. The circle you do on a flat Earth is distinctly causing you to turn to make the trip around the object.

Walk around your computer chair. Did you turn during that circle you just made? you are standing on a flat surface right? you walked around that computer chair that is also on a flat surface right?  So apply that to a flat Earth where your boat is traveling in a circle around the north pole. What is causing you to do that circle without turning. Please do not tell me it is the same as a round Earth... a sphere is a sphere is a sphere and the way you travel on it cannot be applied to a flat surface.

you are not standing at an angle on a flat plane, you are not traveling around a flat plane because you would have to go under that flat plane, you are not doing a great circle path because there is nothing causing that affect on you, So how in the world are you making that circle around the north pole on a flat plane without turning?

Do not flippen say anything about traveling in a curve on a sphere, I know that we do I keep saying how we travel in a great circle or rhumb line so do not, do not, do not, do not, do not, do not, do not one more time DO NOT tell me how we travel on a sphere. I am talking about a circle on a FLAT SURFACE. Not a sphere. Two different shapes.

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #58 on: July 15, 2012, 01:45:13 PM »
Are you talking about traveling in a great circle in this thread, or not?  Because the pictures you've drawn don't always show you traveling in a great circle.

I'm kind of confused what exactly it is you're talking about at any given point.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 01:47:54 PM by Cat Earth Theory »
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Cat Earth Theory

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Re: Flat earth vs Round Earth directional navigation
« Reply #59 on: July 15, 2012, 01:51:27 PM »
A related point I just thought of:

If you follow the lines of latitude anywhere but the equator on a round earth, you still have to turn a bit, yes?  But in the southern hemisphere, you'd have to turn the opposite direction as on the usual flat earth map.

I'm sure nobody's noticed, though, because everyone but the genius FEers here are mindless sheep.
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