Shining light on an old topic.

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Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2012, 10:28:35 AM »
If the reason "dawns" on you before then, please say so to save me the effort.

Since this "reason" probably only makes sense to you at this moment, I wouldn't worry about this happening.

Then allow me to enlighten you.

All right, imagine a spotlight sun shinning down on the Earth.  You are in this spotlight and it appears to be daytime to you.  You can see clouds in the sky what light is filtering through.  People in the spotlight high up in planes can also see the same clouds as some of the light is reflected by up and some filters though.  To everyone, it appears that the cloud is glowing, not reflecting like a mirror.  Now, we know that the cloud isn't glowing on it own, it's reflecting light from the sun in all directions.

Now, the sun sets and the cloud is to your West.  Light bounces off the Earth and hits the cloud causing it to send light in all directions as it normally does.  The cloud still appears to glow after sunset.

If the cloud is to your East when the sun sets, then it is still being lit by light bouncing off the Earth and hitting the cloud.  However, it will darken before the ones in the West as the spotlight moves further and further away and the atmo-layer weakens the light.

In both cases, it appears to you that the sun has set, but the clouds are still glowing.
Demonstratively false. At Sundown, notice that the tops of skyscrapers are still lit while their bases are not. Go to a western window on the highest floor in one such skyscraper. Notice that you see the Sun, not its diffuse reflection off the Earth.

Oh, and the cloud does not appear to glow. It appears to be illuminated from below.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Pongo

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Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2012, 10:40:46 AM »
I checked dictionary.com and feel safe insisting that "glow" is a proper word to use in this example. 

What you're seeing in the top a building is still reflection of light off of the Earth.  It's known as a sunset mirage.  Here is a webpage with lots of wonderful pictures that you may or may not accept.  I understand if you don't, but you can see it for yourself, maybe even tonight!

http://mintaka.sdsu.edu/GF/explain/simulations/inf-mir/Kaplan_photos.html

Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2012, 10:53:08 AM »
I checked dictionary.com and feel safe insisting that "glow" is a proper word to use in this example. 

What you're seeing in the top a building is still reflection of light off of the Earth.  It's known as a sunset mirage.  Here is a webpage with lots of wonderful pictures that you may or may not accept.  I understand if you don't, but you can see it for yourself, maybe even tonight!

http://mintaka.sdsu.edu/GF/explain/simulations/inf-mir/Kaplan_photos.html
Nope. You'll see the entire apparent disc of the setting Sun, not just it's mirage image. Also, please read what you reference: "The secret of success in this case was to take pictures over a narrow body of water (Albemarle Sound), not the open ocean. The photograph was taken from Nags Head, North Carolina, in August, 1999. The Sound is only about 20 km wide, so the “fetch” or available distance for the wind to generate waves is small; consequently, the waves there are much smaller than on the open sea under similar wind conditions."

That's right, this mirage is a rare event seen only under special conditions, including a large body of still water to the west.

So that's a failure yet again. Don't you get tired of failing?
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2012, 10:55:55 AM »
Pongo, you're assuming a spotlight sun, where, I guess, the sun somehow doesn't send out light in every direction.  How that happens and doesn't affect the apparent shape of the sun is another matter.

Anyway, if the sun's light does go out in every direction, we should still be able to see direct light from the sun when the bottoms of clouds are being illuminated.  In the traditional explanation, it's the atmosphere (or atmolayer if you prefer) that's limiting the distance the light of the sun can reach.  The problem with that is that the light being reflected off the clouds is traveling further than the light coming directly from the sun, so the sun should still be visible.
If you focus on the cloud, and conceive of it just as you would a dream you are trying to interpret, with practice its meanings and memories will be revealed to you.

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The Knowledge

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Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2012, 11:15:51 AM »
I checked dictionary.com and feel safe insisting that "glow" is a proper word to use in this example. 

Semantics FTW. We are defeated in debate  :o
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squevil

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Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2012, 07:12:32 PM »
Pongo, you're assuming a spotlight sun, where, I guess, the sun somehow doesn't send out light in every direction.  How that happens and doesn't affect the apparent shape of the sun is another matter.

Anyway, if the sun's light does go out in every direction, we should still be able to see direct light from the sun when the bottoms of clouds are being illuminated.  In the traditional explanation, it's the atmosphere (or atmolayer if you prefer) that's limiting the distance the light of the sun can reach.  The problem with that is that the light being reflected off the clouds is traveling further than the light coming directly from the sun, so the sun should still be visible.

well atleast you understand what im getting at :)

pongo you have just explained whats happening in my picture perfectly, thanks. now can you actually enlighten me on how we can see light reflecting off clouds, yet we cant see the sun? the light is coming from the same place. so why cant we directly see the sun?

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Pongo

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Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2012, 07:38:34 PM »
I'm not sure how I can explain it better. Let me give it a whirl later when I'm on a computer. (maybe tomorrow).

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squevil

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Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2012, 10:43:32 PM »
I'm not sure how I can explain it better. Let me give it a whirl later when I'm on a computer. (maybe tomorrow).

ill exspect you will have scientific proof to back your claims? or will you be making it up?

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Pongo

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Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2012, 11:26:03 PM »
Pongo, you're assuming a spotlight sun, where, I guess, the sun somehow doesn't send out light in every direction.  How that happens and doesn't affect the apparent shape of the sun is another matter.

Anyway, if the sun's light does go out in every direction, we should still be able to see direct light from the sun when the bottoms of clouds are being illuminated.  In the traditional explanation, it's the atmosphere (or atmolayer if you prefer) that's limiting the distance the light of the sun can reach.  The problem with that is that the light being reflected off the clouds is traveling further than the light coming directly from the sun, so the sun should still be visible.

well atleast you understand what im getting at :)

pongo you have just explained whats happening in my picture perfectly, thanks. now can you actually enlighten me on how we can see light reflecting off clouds, yet we cant see the sun? the light is coming from the same place. so why cant we directly see the sun?

Okay, I've thought this over for a couple days and I'm still not sure how you don't understand. Light bounces off the Earth and hits the clouds.  The light rays bounce off and are traveling way above your head. I'm not sure why you would expect to see the reflected light or the sun as you would both be outside the spotlight and below the reflected light.

The only thing I can think of that is preventing you from seeing the solution is that you are having difficulty thinking in FE terms. Try mentally visualizing the flat Earth when you think of being both outside the spotlight and under the reflected light.

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squevil

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Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #39 on: April 28, 2012, 07:25:19 AM »
the sun shines out at all angles. so you think that the sun is a spotlight? as in it shines directly down and not sideways? now if you had said this in the first place you would of made sence. so please tell me; what shape is the sun? and do you believe that the sun only shines down or does it shine out at all angles. please reference your theories

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squevil

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Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #40 on: April 28, 2012, 07:26:49 AM »
"I'm not sure why you would expect to see the reflected light"

we do, we see it reflected off clouds

Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #41 on: April 28, 2012, 07:39:16 PM »
Pongo, you're assuming a spotlight sun, where, I guess, the sun somehow doesn't send out light in every direction.  How that happens and doesn't affect the apparent shape of the sun is another matter.

Anyway, if the sun's light does go out in every direction, we should still be able to see direct light from the sun when the bottoms of clouds are being illuminated.  In the traditional explanation, it's the atmosphere (or atmolayer if you prefer) that's limiting the distance the light of the sun can reach.  The problem with that is that the light being reflected off the clouds is traveling further than the light coming directly from the sun, so the sun should still be visible.
well atleast you understand what im getting at :)

pongo you have just explained whats happening in my picture perfectly, thanks. now can you actually enlighten me on how we can see light reflecting off clouds, yet we cant see the sun? the light is coming from the same place. so why cant we directly see the sun?

Okay, I've thought this over for a couple days and I'm still not sure how you don't understand. Light bounces off the Earth and hits the clouds.  The light rays bounce off and are traveling way above your head. I'm not sure why you would expect to see the reflected light or the sun as you would both be outside the spotlight and below the reflected light.

The only thing I can think of that is preventing you from seeing the solution is that you are having difficulty thinking in FE terms. Try mentally visualizing the flat Earth when you think of being both outside the spotlight and under the reflected light.
Oh so wrong. Please read about albedo. Go outside just 15 minutes before the Sun sets. Stand in a grassy field. Don't use anything like a mirror. Hold you hand flat, palm down, level with the ground, at eye level. If you're right the top of your head will be less illuminated that the bottom.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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squevil

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Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #42 on: May 01, 2012, 02:58:56 PM »
im going to be the imature one here and just say this is a hands down flaw in fet. the fact that most have avoided the thread speaks for itself. many use the excuse that most of the fes avoid the upper fora. well this is the debate area. yet nobody is up for relevent debate unless its about semantics and point scoring. well then thats 3-0 to me in that case

Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #43 on: May 01, 2012, 03:54:00 PM »
Here are some pictures that are relevant to this discussion:

Mount Rainier (WA, USA) at sunset


Mount Hood (OR, USA) at sunrise


The crisp shadows on the clouds indicate that the light illuminating them is not reflected off of the earths surface, and is more likely from the sun itself. 

edit: spelling.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 03:58:12 PM by Kendrick »

Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2012, 10:02:36 AM »
Has it ever been explained in FE, how the last of the light at sunset fades increasingly faster without the sun moving faster?

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squevil

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Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2012, 10:21:40 AM »
Has it ever been explained in FE, how the last of the light at sunset fades increasingly faster without the sun moving faster?

is that just because the sun has a point of reference though?

Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2012, 01:16:49 AM »
Has it ever been explained in FE, how the last of the light at sunset fades increasingly faster without the sun moving faster?

is that just because the sun has a point of reference though?

What!?
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

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squevil

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Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2012, 09:06:06 AM »
when the sun is high in the sky its hard to tell how fast it is moving. when its near the horizon you have objects in the same frame as the sun so its easier to see how fast it is moving. the whole 'what!?' isnt needed if you think before you post

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Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2012, 10:07:09 AM »
when the sun is high in the sky its hard to tell how fast it is moving. when its near the horizon you have objects in the same frame as the sun so its easier to see how fast it is moving. the whole 'what!?' isnt needed if you think before you post

I think the question was more to do with the fact that while the light from the sun is steadily going through more and more of the atmosphere from high noon (whatever point of the day the sun was closest to directly overhead) and on, the light really doesn't fade much through the majority of the afternoon and evening.  Then in the last hour or so of the day, the light dims a bit as the sun nears the horizon, then goes from being fairly bright, to completely out of view in a very short time.

If the day night cycle was due to the light absorption properties of the atmosphere then sun should slowly fade into view in the morning, with it's brightness and how well it was illuminating the area increasing steadily all morning until reaching it's brightest at Noon, then slowly fading throughout the evening until finally dropping from sight at "sunset".

A "spotlight" sun would account for this to a point, if you figure that sunset was just the time when the beam of light passed.  A sun who's light is simply fully absorbed by the atmosphere after a particular distance does no account for this.
The above is not meant to be an attack or inflammatory, it's just what I think.

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I don't understand

Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #49 on: May 04, 2012, 11:38:40 AM »
when the sun is high in the sky its hard to tell how fast it is moving. when its near the horizon you have objects in the same frame as the sun so its easier to see how fast it is moving. the whole 'what!?' isnt needed if you think before you post
Picture a car on straight stretch of road, train on a railroad, or plane traveling by at a constant speed.  As it travels away from you, and the distance increases, it appears to be moving increasingly slower.  Same thing with higher flying airliners (as far as they can be seen anyway).

Yet the sun, moon, and stars visual rate of speed stays the same as they approach the ground, allowing their actual movement to be observed as they set. 

Also, if the sun is traveling a circular path 3000 miles high, considering it's distance at sunset, shouldn't it appear to be moving right horizontaly somewhat by then?

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Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #50 on: May 04, 2012, 12:51:46 PM »
when the sun is high in the sky its hard to tell how fast it is moving. when its near the horizon you have objects in the same frame as the sun so its easier to see how fast it is moving. the whole 'what!?' isnt needed if you think before you post
Picture a car on straight stretch of road, train on a railroad, or plane traveling by at a constant speed.  As it travels away from you, and the distance increases, it appears to be moving increasingly slower.  Same thing with higher flying airliners (as far as they can be seen anyway).

Yet the sun, moon, and stars visual rate of speed stays the same as they approach the ground, allowing their actual movement to be observed as they set. 

http://theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/index.php?title=Constant_Speed_of_the_Sun

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Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #51 on: May 04, 2012, 01:41:35 PM »
when the sun is high in the sky its hard to tell how fast it is moving. when its near the horizon you have objects in the same frame as the sun so its easier to see how fast it is moving. the whole 'what!?' isnt needed if you think before you post
Picture a car on straight stretch of road, train on a railroad, or plane traveling by at a constant speed.  As it travels away from you, and the distance increases, it appears to be moving increasingly slower.  Same thing with higher flying airliners (as far as they can be seen anyway).

Yet the sun, moon, and stars visual rate of speed stays the same as they approach the ground, allowing their actual movement to be observed as they set. 

http://theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/index.php?title=Constant_Speed_of_the_Sun
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

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Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #52 on: May 04, 2012, 04:30:37 PM »
when the sun is high in the sky its hard to tell how fast it is moving. when its near the horizon you have objects in the same frame as the sun so its easier to see how fast it is moving. the whole 'what!?' isnt needed if you think before you post
Picture a car on straight stretch of road, train on a railroad, or plane traveling by at a constant speed.  As it travels away from you, and the distance increases, it appears to be moving increasingly slower.  Same thing with higher flying airliners (as far as they can be seen anyway).

Yet the sun, moon, and stars visual rate of speed stays the same as they approach the ground, allowing their actual movement to be observed as they set. 

http://theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/index.php?title=Constant_Speed_of_the_Sun


That diagram does not address the content in the link.

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markjo

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Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #53 on: May 04, 2012, 04:34:49 PM »
when the sun is high in the sky its hard to tell how fast it is moving. when its near the horizon you have objects in the same frame as the sun so its easier to see how fast it is moving. the whole 'what!?' isnt needed if you think before you post
Picture a car on straight stretch of road, train on a railroad, or plane traveling by at a constant speed.  As it travels away from you, and the distance increases, it appears to be moving increasingly slower.  Same thing with higher flying airliners (as far as they can be seen anyway).

Yet the sun, moon, and stars visual rate of speed stays the same as they approach the ground, allowing their actual movement to be observed as they set. 

http://theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/index.php?title=Constant_Speed_of_the_Sun


That diagram does not address the content in the link.

The content in the link does not address real world observations.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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squevil

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Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2012, 04:42:36 PM »
the link doesnt even come close to addressing the OP either. and now you guys explained to me what the 'speed' was about i understand what you are saying. again another fair point.

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Re: Shining light on an old topic.
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2012, 11:07:51 PM »
when the sun is high in the sky its hard to tell how fast it is moving. when its near the horizon you have objects in the same frame as the sun so its easier to see how fast it is moving. the whole 'what!?' isnt needed if you think before you post
Picture a car on straight stretch of road, train on a railroad, or plane traveling by at a constant speed.  As it travels away from you, and the distance increases, it appears to be moving increasingly slower.  Same thing with higher flying airliners (as far as they can be seen anyway).

Yet the sun, moon, and stars visual rate of speed stays the same as they approach the ground, allowing their actual movement to be observed as they set. 

http://theflatearthsociety.org/wiki/index.php?title=Constant_Speed_of_the_Sun


That diagram does not address the content in the link.

For those with a basic knowledge of geometry, it tells us that the content of the link explains nothing.
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.