One Reason to be an Atheist

Earth != the universe

Sorry to make such an obvious point, but I think it kind of needed to be said.  We don't know what the universe is like.  Nobody here is in any position to judge it.

Earth != the universe

Sorry to make such an obvious point, but I think it kind of needed to be said.  We don't know what the universe is like.  Nobody here is in any position to judge it.

You do realize that the Earth is part of the universe, right?  And that we are able to observe other parts of the universe from the Earth?

I do realize that, and I stand by what I said.

(Except for the moonshramps of course) what life have we observed that isn't on Earth?

James has mentioned creatures that live in the sun.

(Except for the moonshramps of course) what life have we observed that isn't on Earth?

We haven't observed any.  As I stated, it's the analysis of experts better versed in the science involved than I that life flourishes all over the universe.

You have one data point that you are using to claim the Universe is teeming with life. What other plants have you found, Roundy? And what sources are you using that say life flourishes in the Universe?

You have one data point that you are using to claim the Universe is teeming with life. What other plants have you found, Roundy? And what sources are you using that say life flourishes in the Universe?

Please find me an expert in the relevant fields that does not believe that life is flourishing throughout the universe.

An expert in the relevant fields?  I don't think that "aliens" is an academic field, Roundy.

Astronomers, physicists, biologists... go ahead, Saddam, take your pick.

How are any of them authorities on aliens?

Now you're just attacking a strawman.  Good night, I'm going to bed, if anybody has anything intelligent to add I will discuss further tomorrow.

There is a difference between believing that the universe is full of life and having evidence that the universe is full of life.

Quote from: Trekky0623 on May 15, 2012, 08:19:19 PM

Quote from: Roundy the Truthinessist on May 15, 2012, 08:13:38 PM

Quote from: Trekky0623 on May 15, 2012, 08:12:35 PM

If the universe was not suitable for life, we would not be here to contemplate it.

Um... exactly? 

So if we have a bunch of universes, or a cycle of creation and destruction of one universe, the one we will contemplate and think is special is the one that will seem to be designed for us. The bottom line is, there is no sign that the universe was created in anyway with life in mind. Life is exceedingly rare in the universe, yet it survives despite the harshness of it.

Life is abundant in the universe.  And its presence is likely only growing.  And we are on the verge of conquering the stars, and placing ourselves (life) in even more places.  And we are likely not the only beings with such capacity.  Life is not rare.  It is common, and getting commoner.  Experts tell us it is all over the place.  That you judge the universe to be "harsh" for life's existence seems like a very subjective opinion, and I'd have to say one not borne out by the evidence.

Quote

An ideal universe could be teeming with life, but that is simply not the case.

The universe is teeming with life.  Have you not been paying attention?

I don't deny that life struggles on in abundance, but it is painfully evident that this is not the best possible universe if one considers it from the perspective of belief in an omnipotent creator.

To return to the farm analogy, if the plot of land is mostly barren with little pockets of vegetation - weeds mostly- which have sprouted in the harsh conditions, then we will admit there is life growing on the farm but we would not say that it is a perfectly designed one.

I don't deny that life struggles on in abundance, but it is painfully evident that this is not the best possible universe if one considers it from the perspective of belief in an omnipotent creator.

Unless we were the only life He created.

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on May 16, 2012, 01:37:42 AM

I don't deny that life struggles on in abundance, but it is painfully evident that this is not the best possible universe if one considers it from the perspective of belief in an omnipotent creator.

Unless we were the only life He created.

In which case, the universe is woefully built for life if only less than 1% of one planet around one star in a septillion stars contains life.

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 16, 2012, 04:00:41 AM

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on May 16, 2012, 01:37:42 AM

I don't deny that life struggles on in abundance, but it is painfully evident that this is not the best possible universe if one considers it from the perspective of belief in an omnipotent creator.

Unless we were the only life He created.

In which case, the universe is woefully built for life if only less than 1% of one planet around one star in a septillion stars contains life.

I believe it was built for our amazement.  To be enjoyed.  Why does it need any other purpose?

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on May 16, 2012, 04:25:41 AM

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 16, 2012, 04:00:41 AM

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on May 16, 2012, 01:37:42 AM

I don't deny that life struggles on in abundance, but it is painfully evident that this is not the best possible universe if one considers it from the perspective of belief in an omnipotent creator.

Unless we were the only life He created.

In which case, the universe is woefully built for life if only less than 1% of one planet around one star in a septillion stars contains life.

I believe it was built for our amazement.  To be enjoyed.  Why does it need any other purpose?

Why does it need a purpose?

Why does it need a purpose?

I believe because someone made it.

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on May 16, 2012, 04:38:00 AM

Why does it need a purpose?

I believe because someone made it.

Now you're going in circles.

You believe it is made because it has a purpose,
you believe it has a purpose because someone made it.

No I believe someone made it for a purpose.  That purpose is for our viewing pleasure, nothing more, nothing less.

No I believe someone made it for a purpose.  That purpose is for our viewing pleasure, nothing more, nothing less.

And why do you believe it has a purpose? "I believe because someone made it." and the logic roudabout goes on.

There is a difference between believing that the universe is full of life and having evidence that the universe is full of life.

This, basically.  An appeal to authority isn't necessarily a fallacy, but there needs to be some basis for that authority first.  There's no real evidence one way or the other about extraterrestrial life, making any opinion on it little more than a gut feeling.

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 16, 2012, 05:01:28 AM

No I believe someone made it for a purpose.  That purpose is for our viewing pleasure, nothing more, nothing less.

And why do you believe it has a purpose? "I believe because someone made it." and the logic roudabout goes on.

I forgot atheists were about randomness, chance and mutations.  Apologies.

Irrelevant. What I believe has no bearing on the logical consistency iof your views.

Your argument for purpose and creation is circular of its own accord.

I don't deny that life struggles on in abundance, but it is painfully evident that this is not the best possible universe if one considers it from the perspective of belief in an omnipotent creator.

Well, thankfully that is not what I'm doing.  Please pay attention.

The question remains, though. If the God or god which created this universe was limited to create this universe by the universe's own nature, then what need is there of a creator rather than the fortuitous natural state of the universe as we see it?

The question remains, though. If the God or god which created this universe was limited to create this universe by the universe's own nature, then what need is there of a creator rather than the fortuitous natural state of the universe as we see it?

No, that question has been answered too.

Life requires resources to survive. Too much life and the usable resources get depleted faster than they are replaced. This is called overpopulation and usually results in mass death. Possibly even the eradication of a species if the resource required takes too long to be renewed.

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on May 16, 2012, 04:25:41 AM

Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 16, 2012, 04:00:41 AM

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on May 16, 2012, 01:37:42 AM

I don't deny that life struggles on in abundance, but it is painfully evident that this is not the best possible universe if one considers it from the perspective of belief in an omnipotent creator.

Unless we were the only life He created.

In which case, the universe is woefully built for life if only less than 1% of one planet around one star in a septillion stars contains life.

I believe it was built for our amazement.  To be enjoyed.  Why does it need any other purpose?

He really overdid it, then. We can only see about 10,000 stars with the naked eye.