One Reason to be an Atheist

  • 161 Replies
  • 21313 Views
*

Berk

  • 18
  • +0/-0
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #90 on: May 13, 2012, 06:35:45 AM »
Because atheism renders the mysteries concerning our existence irrelevant, without adding anything new to the equation.  That it is less interesting can be derived mathematically.

*** This of course is conflict of opinion. That amoeba and humans, the Amazon and Everest can exist on the same planet through natural processes is a real beauty to me. I am more than happy for you to find such beauty through any belief you choose. However I would maintain that from my view, there is no 'evidence' to suggest a 'creator' got us here, or anything in the universe, other than the gaps in our existing knowledge.***

No, there's no difference of opinion here (at least not as you're referencing).  As I already stated, science and religion are not mutually exclusive.  It's possible to recognize that natural processes led to the existence of amoeba and humans, the Amazon and Everest on the same planet through natural processes just as an atheist can.  How such a thing happened is firmly in the realm of science.  Why it happened, science cannot address.  With an intelligent creator in the mix we can speculate on and at least attempt to reason out his motives for designing the world in the manner he did (while still being just as fascinated by the question of how it happened).  Take the intelligent creator away, and we're left without the question even mattering.  You seem to be equating science with atheism and obviously that is not an accurate thing to do.

Quote
The question of why we are here implies the existence of a creator.  If there is no creator there is no why, so atheists who engage in such exercises do so without understanding their own position.

***I understand and I myself, never need to ask 'why' (in terms of our existence) but I would add that to think I 'know everything' would be a total lie. I was trying to say that stating atheists 'dismiss' the 'why' makes it sound like we're puddle-dodging part of the argument...when we just have no need to encounter it as you know and point out :) (Thank you!) ***

Please understand that I'm not saying that a religious viewpoint is more "right" than an atheist one, just that it's more interesting.  You're right, if you don't believe in God you don't *have* to ask the question; but in taking away the question, your belief is just duller than the alternatives.

Quote
^^ proving the above point.  This is the central issue; science addresses the "how"; it is unequipped to address the "why".  Even if we knew everything about how we came into existence that it would be possible to know, it would do nothing to address why we are here.  It's an interesting question, and atheism renders it meaningless.

*** I feel this almost counters your previous statement which I essentially agreed with. We [atheists] don't ask "why" because we don't need to. "Believers" need to ask why because they are either unsatisfied with the 'natural' process not requiring god, or they believe they are going somewhere once they kick the bucket. ***

This is, again, very much in line with the point I'm making: that theism is inherently more interesting than atheism, because theism forces the question while atheism simply ignores it.

Quote
***The quote was another snippet of Hitchens that I think he 'borrowed' from someone previously.

I would be interested in the evidence you refer to. One thing I would agree with, is that creator or not, the debate certainly makes everything more interesting :) ***

Essentially, my reason for being a deist is the fact that conditions in the universe were just right for intelligent life, able to observe, wonder, reason and record the world around us, to not only emerge, but apparently (according to most experts on the matter) to flourish.  People talk about the so-called "Goldilocks Zone" and the fact that the Earth is just the right distance from the sun (and I believe other factors, such as the possibility of water springing up) for life to develop.  The simple matter is that the entire universe can be seen as such a zone, and that if one of several factors in the universe's early development had been only slightly different, life, much less intelligent, sentient life, would not even be possible.  This strongly suggests design to me.

Quote
*** My apologies, the research and Hitchens video were just for interest and I thought they may help add to the discussion; they were not 'meant' to directly respond to any parts of your comment, I would like to have the confidence in myself to do that :) ***

Oh, no need to apologize.  As I said, I enjoyed the video.

Roundy, I think I understand your point of view more clearly now: matters like the 'Goldilocks zone', the development of life on Earth, the presence and abundance of both water and land in essentially perfect measures for us to 'flourish' (for you) point towards the involvement of a 'creator'. (If I am wrong, correct me as I know you will do :) )

However, that same 'creator' also appears to have 'given' us a Sun that will one day die, as well as putting us in a galaxy that appears to be rushing headlong into a collision with another galaxy that will end everything we know of Earth and its position in the universe.

(For those interested) Galaxy Collision: http://hubblesite.org/explore_astronomy/cosmic_collision/

The death of our Sun: http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=258740

I can only make observations or personal statements based upon what I see before me, what I read, what I hear (etc) - and as long as they are from reliable sources, or peer-reviewed, or backed up with layers of 'working' method or practice that indicates one could use them to support a particular outlook or belief in this universe.

At present, I see that we appear to be in an incomprehensibly old, incomprehensibly big universe with what looks like an incomprehensibly unpredictable future ahead of it. If I am a human, here now asking 'why', I would immediately begin to wonder 'why' would a mind able to contemplate its own existence be placed (or allowed to 'flourish') in such a ridiculously confusing place of multi-dimensions, space, time, etc, if there were an answer to be sought? In addition, of our billions of brothers and sisters on this planet, many of them will be born and die either without asking a similar question themselves, or they will simply not even get the chance to ask it. This (for me, at least) does not point towards our universe bearing the mucky fingerprints of any 'intelligent designer' or 'creator'.

Nevertheless, it is of course only sensible for me to absolutely confirm that there is a possibility that 'all of this' could be the inner clockworkings of the favourite toy of a 'creator'. However, even if I were to change my opinion from that of atheism to that of theism, in order for me (or anyone) to say "I can have a guess at what all this is all for", would require knowledge or understanding of a 'creator' itself - it presumes that the answer to 'why' is found in the region of "because we were put here by something else" or "the universe was started by something else because it wanted to see what would happen".

We both agree atheism has no need to ask 'why'; but based on what we know at present, theism must surely be the presumption that there must be a 'why' and that the 'why' stems from a 'godly' first cause.

If I were to also concede that: "Yes, there are things that we will never have an explanation for 'why' they started or came into being" there is still a whole lot more work to be done to point that an answer must lie with a 'creator', an 'intelligent designer' or anything else.

This could be the first time that 'life' as we know it has got this far in a cycle of the universe exploding and then re-forming. Then again this could be the 'first' universe that has ever existed. We could be on a flat earth on the back of a turtle.  We could be my, or your imagination. We could be in "Sims 2012" as part of a video game that is actually being played in 3582AD.

Furthermore, (with my atheist-hat back on) If you ask 'why', how will you know once the 'answer' is 'revealed' to you, or what kind of 'answer' would you expect to be 'revealed'?

*

Chris Spaghetti

  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 12631
  • +0/-4
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #91 on: May 13, 2012, 01:29:25 PM »
Quote
Essentially, my reason for being a deist is the fact that conditions in the universe were just right for intelligent life, able to observe, wonder, reason and record the world around us, to not only emerge, but apparently (according to most experts on the matter) to flourish.

I'd say this universe has been terribly designed for any life, much less intelligent life. If we're the only life in the universe, then it has been set up so that it can emerge in just one sextillionth of star systems. But let's ignore that speculation and just look at our home system:

On this planet 71% of the surface is covered by water, most of the landmass is actually mountains, desert, tundra and other environments where humans have difficulty surviving, but let's be generousd and say that we can live on 25% of the remaining land. Ignoring all the moons and asteroids that means humans can live on 0.105% of the planetary surface area of the solar system. Of this pitiful plot of land, we face natural disasters by the bucket-load.

If a farmer who had a plot of 100 acres could only grow a single solitary hedge which was constantly flooded, scorched, frozen, attacked by insects I doubt you'd conclude that it was a well-designed, efficiently run farm.

If I were an omnipotent designer who had to design a universe to support life I could think of a thousand better formats than dropping them on a dangerously unstable ball hurtling through a debris-strewn area of space around a nuclear explosion.

?

Robbyj

  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 5455
  • +0/-0
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #92 on: May 13, 2012, 03:51:21 PM »
Essentially, my reason for being a deist is the fact that conditions in the universe were just right for intelligent life, able to observe, wonder, reason and record the world around us, to not only emerge, but apparently (according to most experts on the matter) to flourish.  People talk about the so-called "Goldilocks Zone" and the fact that the Earth is just the right distance from the sun (and I believe other factors, such as the possibility of water springing up) for life to develop.  The simple matter is that the entire universe can be seen as such a zone, and that if one of several factors in the universe's early development had been only slightly different, life, much less intelligent, sentient life, would not even be possible.  This strongly suggests design to me.

... imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact, it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!'
Why justify an illegitimate attack with a legitimate response?

*

Trekky0623

  • Official Member
  • 10045
  • +0/-0
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #93 on: May 13, 2012, 03:52:39 PM »
Essentially, my reason for being a deist is the fact that conditions in the universe were just right for intelligent life, able to observe, wonder, reason and record the world around us, to not only emerge, but apparently (according to most experts on the matter) to flourish.  People talk about the so-called "Goldilocks Zone" and the fact that the Earth is just the right distance from the sun (and I believe other factors, such as the possibility of water springing up) for life to develop.  The simple matter is that the entire universe can be seen as such a zone, and that if one of several factors in the universe's early development had been only slightly different, life, much less intelligent, sentient life, would not even be possible.  This strongly suggests design to me.

... imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact, it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!'

—Douglas Adams

*

Ichimaru Gin :]

  • Undefeated FEer
  • Planar Moderator
  • 8880
  • +3/-3
  • Semper vigilans
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #94 on: May 13, 2012, 03:58:28 PM »
Quote
Essentially, my reason for being a deist is the fact that conditions in the universe were just right for intelligent life, able to observe, wonder, reason and record the world around us, to not only emerge, but apparently (according to most experts on the matter) to flourish.

I'd say this universe has been terribly designed for any life, much less intelligent life. If we're the only life in the universe, then it has been set up so that it can emerge in just one sextillionth of star systems. But let's ignore that speculation and just look at our home system:

On this planet 71% of the surface is covered by water, most of the landmass is actually mountains, desert, tundra and other environments where humans have difficulty surviving, but let's be generousd and say that we can live on 25% of the remaining land. Ignoring all the moons and asteroids that means humans can live on 0.105% of the planetary surface area of the solar system. Of this pitiful plot of land, we face natural disasters by the bucket-load.

If a farmer who had a plot of 100 acres could only grow a single solitary hedge which was constantly flooded, scorched, frozen, attacked by insects I doubt you'd conclude that it was a well-designed, efficiently run farm.

If I were an omnipotent designer who had to design a universe to support life I could think of a thousand better formats than dropping them on a dangerously unstable ball hurtling through a debris-strewn area of space around a nuclear explosion.
>Assuming omnipotent
>Hubris believing you could design a universe.
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

*

Vindictus

  • 5451
  • +1/-0
  • insightful personal text
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #95 on: May 13, 2012, 04:03:24 PM »
Quote
Essentially, my reason for being a deist is the fact that conditions in the universe were just right for intelligent life, able to observe, wonder, reason and record the world around us, to not only emerge, but apparently (according to most experts on the matter) to flourish.

I'd say this universe has been terribly designed for any life, much less intelligent life. If we're the only life in the universe, then it has been set up so that it can emerge in just one sextillionth of star systems. But let's ignore that speculation and just look at our home system:

On this planet 71% of the surface is covered by water, most of the landmass is actually mountains, desert, tundra and other environments where humans have difficulty surviving, but let's be generousd and say that we can live on 25% of the remaining land. Ignoring all the moons and asteroids that means humans can live on 0.105% of the planetary surface area of the solar system. Of this pitiful plot of land, we face natural disasters by the bucket-load.

If a farmer who had a plot of 100 acres could only grow a single solitary hedge which was constantly flooded, scorched, frozen, attacked by insects I doubt you'd conclude that it was a well-designed, efficiently run farm.

If I were an omnipotent designer who had to design a universe to support life I could think of a thousand better formats than dropping them on a dangerously unstable ball hurtling through a debris-strewn area of space around a nuclear explosion.
>Assuming omnipotent
>Hubris believing you could design a universe.

That's not really debating the point.

?

Robbyj

  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 5455
  • +0/-0
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #96 on: May 13, 2012, 04:08:43 PM »
>Assuming omnipotent
>Hubris believing you could design a universe.

I don't have the education to design a cell phone, but I can still tell by observation how well it works.
Why justify an illegitimate attack with a legitimate response?

*

Ichimaru Gin :]

  • Undefeated FEer
  • Planar Moderator
  • 8880
  • +3/-3
  • Semper vigilans
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #97 on: May 13, 2012, 04:09:59 PM »
>Assuming omnipotent
>Hubris believing you could design a universe.

I don't have the education to design a cell phone, but I can still tell by observation how well it works.
But you can't come up with 'thousands' of better ways to build one.
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

?

Robbyj

  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 5455
  • +0/-0
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #98 on: May 13, 2012, 04:20:25 PM »
>Assuming omnipotent
>Hubris believing you could design a universe.

I don't have the education to design a cell phone, but I can still tell by observation how well it works.
But you can't come up with 'thousands' of better ways to build one.

However, finding a thousand things wrong with a design would, in effect, be coming up with a thousand better ways.  Just because I cannot implement a solution does not mean there isn't a problem.
Why justify an illegitimate attack with a legitimate response?

*

Marcus Aurelius

  • 4540
  • +0/-0
  • My Alts: Tom Bishop, Gayer, theonlydann
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #99 on: May 13, 2012, 05:20:26 PM »
Quote
Essentially, my reason for being a deist is the fact that conditions in the universe were just right for intelligent life, able to observe, wonder, reason and record the world around us, to not only emerge, but apparently (according to most experts on the matter) to flourish.  People talk about the so-called "Goldilocks Zone" and the fact that the Earth is just the right distance from the sun (and I believe other factors, such as the possibility of water springing up) for life to develop.  The simple matter is that the entire universe can be seen as such a zone, and that if one of several factors in the universe's early development had been only slightly different, life, much less intelligent, sentient life, would not even be possible.  This strongly suggests design to me.

I saw an interesting argument refuting (or attempting to refute) the fine tuning argument the other day.  It's worth a watch, whether you agree or not.




*

Particle Person

  • 5944
  • +0/-0
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #100 on: May 13, 2012, 05:21:03 PM »
>Assuming omnipotent
>Hubris believing you could design a universe.

I don't have the education to design a cell phone, but I can still tell by observation how well it works.
But you can't come up with 'thousands' of better ways to build one.

However, finding a thousand things wrong with a design would, in effect, be coming up with a thousand better ways.

No, it wouldn't. If you've only identified a flaw you're still one step short.

?

Lorddave

  • 19823
  • +28/-60
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #101 on: May 13, 2012, 05:26:20 PM »
If God is perfect, we shouldn't be able to find any flaws in what he does.
Gone.

*

Chris Spaghetti

  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 12631
  • +0/-4
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #102 on: May 14, 2012, 01:22:21 AM »
Quote
Essentially, my reason for being a deist is the fact that conditions in the universe were just right for intelligent life, able to observe, wonder, reason and record the world around us, to not only emerge, but apparently (according to most experts on the matter) to flourish.

I'd say this universe has been terribly designed for any life, much less intelligent life. If we're the only life in the universe, then it has been set up so that it can emerge in just one sextillionth of star systems. But let's ignore that speculation and just look at our home system:

On this planet 71% of the surface is covered by water, most of the landmass is actually mountains, desert, tundra and other environments where humans have difficulty surviving, but let's be generousd and say that we can live on 25% of the remaining land. Ignoring all the moons and asteroids that means humans can live on 0.105% of the planetary surface area of the solar system. Of this pitiful plot of land, we face natural disasters by the bucket-load.

If a farmer who had a plot of 100 acres could only grow a single solitary hedge which was constantly flooded, scorched, frozen, attacked by insects I doubt you'd conclude that it was a well-designed, efficiently run farm.

If I were an omnipotent designer who had to design a universe to support life I could think of a thousand better formats than dropping them on a dangerously unstable ball hurtling through a debris-strewn area of space around a nuclear explosion.
>Assuming omnipotent
>Hubris believing you could design a universe.

>Revelation 19:6
>My design is a fluidic universe, a constant pressure maintained by a universal outwards force, my intelligent and sentient beings are aquatic in nature and live aound heat pockets in the fluid. I create a wide array of organic and inorganic components to add variety and interest to my fluidic universe, like castles in a goldfish bowl. Further, I adjust the settings to lower natural disasters and the natural aggression of my aquatic life along with their reproductive abilities, in short order my aquatic universe would become populated by peaceful, long-lived life with a steady, easily managed growth rate.

before you begin to ask how I could make my aquatic universe work within the laws of physics, let me stop you. I would re-write the laws of physics in their entirety.

*

Ichimaru Gin :]

  • Undefeated FEer
  • Planar Moderator
  • 8880
  • +3/-3
  • Semper vigilans
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #103 on: May 14, 2012, 02:20:26 AM »
Now I know you're taking the mick  ;D
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

*

Chris Spaghetti

  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 12631
  • +0/-4
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #104 on: May 14, 2012, 02:27:34 AM »
Now I know you're taking the mick  ;D

Are you suggesting that God was limited to create this inhospitable universe as his best incubator for life? What imposed that limit upon him? I think the 'Limiter' is more deserving of your worship than a comparatively weak God.

*

Roundy the Truthinessist

  • Flat Earth TheFLAMETHROWER!
  • The Elder Ones
  • 26966
  • +0/-0
  • I'm the boss.
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #105 on: May 14, 2012, 06:44:14 PM »
Quote
Essentially, my reason for being a deist is the fact that conditions in the universe were just right for intelligent life, able to observe, wonder, reason and record the world around us, to not only emerge, but apparently (according to most experts on the matter) to flourish.

I'd say this universe has been terribly designed for any life, much less intelligent life. If we're the only life in the universe, then it has been set up so that it can emerge in just one sextillionth of star systems. But let's ignore that speculation and just look at our home system:

On this planet 71% of the surface is covered by water, most of the landmass is actually mountains, desert, tundra and other environments where humans have difficulty surviving, but let's be generousd and say that we can live on 25% of the remaining land. Ignoring all the moons and asteroids that means humans can live on 0.105% of the planetary surface area of the solar system. Of this pitiful plot of land, we face natural disasters by the bucket-load.

If a farmer who had a plot of 100 acres could only grow a single solitary hedge which was constantly flooded, scorched, frozen, attacked by insects I doubt you'd conclude that it was a well-designed, efficiently run farm.

If I were an omnipotent designer who had to design a universe to support life I could think of a thousand better formats than dropping them on a dangerously unstable ball hurtling through a debris-strewn area of space around a nuclear explosion.

And despite all this, the prevalent belief is that life is flourishing all through the universe.  Apparently he knew what he was doing.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

*

Roundy the Truthinessist

  • Flat Earth TheFLAMETHROWER!
  • The Elder Ones
  • 26966
  • +0/-0
  • I'm the boss.
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #106 on: May 14, 2012, 06:52:23 PM »
Quote
Essentially, my reason for being a deist is the fact that conditions in the universe were just right for intelligent life, able to observe, wonder, reason and record the world around us, to not only emerge, but apparently (according to most experts on the matter) to flourish.  People talk about the so-called "Goldilocks Zone" and the fact that the Earth is just the right distance from the sun (and I believe other factors, such as the possibility of water springing up) for life to develop.  The simple matter is that the entire universe can be seen as such a zone, and that if one of several factors in the universe's early development had been only slightly different, life, much less intelligent, sentient life, would not even be possible.  This strongly suggests design to me.

I saw an interesting argument refuting (or attempting to refute) the fine tuning argument the other day.  It's worth a watch, whether you agree or not.



I agree with the general sentiment of the video; I don't believe God is omnipotent.  The video is much more an argument against theism than deism.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

*

Chris Spaghetti

  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 12631
  • +0/-4
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #107 on: May 15, 2012, 02:33:14 AM »
Quote
Essentially, my reason for being a deist is the fact that conditions in the universe were just right for intelligent life, able to observe, wonder, reason and record the world around us, to not only emerge, but apparently (according to most experts on the matter) to flourish.

I'd say this universe has been terribly designed for any life, much less intelligent life. If we're the only life in the universe, then it has been set up so that it can emerge in just one sextillionth of star systems. But let's ignore that speculation and just look at our home system:

On this planet 71% of the surface is covered by water, most of the landmass is actually mountains, desert, tundra and other environments where humans have difficulty surviving, but let's be generousd and say that we can live on 25% of the remaining land. Ignoring all the moons and asteroids that means humans can live on 0.105% of the planetary surface area of the solar system. Of this pitiful plot of land, we face natural disasters by the bucket-load.

If a farmer who had a plot of 100 acres could only grow a single solitary hedge which was constantly flooded, scorched, frozen, attacked by insects I doubt you'd conclude that it was a well-designed, efficiently run farm.

If I were an omnipotent designer who had to design a universe to support life I could think of a thousand better formats than dropping them on a dangerously unstable ball hurtling through a debris-strewn area of space around a nuclear explosion.

And despite all this, the prevalent belief is that life is flourishing all through the universe.  Apparently he knew what he was doing.

Life is flourishing in spite of a hostile universe, not because of it. Our own planet, a veritable garden of Eden compared to most of the observable universe, has only supported life for a short part of its existence,  and intelligent life for a pitiful amount of time,  during which time life has been pushed to the edge by collisions with rocks, ice ages, volcanic catastrophes, oxygen poisoning etc etc.

It's a universe which can support life but if it was designed, life seems to be a byproduct, rather than the aim. If anything, it seems to be a universe designed to sate a fetish for giant spheres and discs, or for big explosions. If you want to argue for a deistic fireworks enthusiast I'd find it difficult to argue against it but life is quite evidently not the primary function of this universe.

*

Marcus Aurelius

  • 4540
  • +0/-0
  • My Alts: Tom Bishop, Gayer, theonlydann
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #108 on: May 15, 2012, 07:43:38 AM »
Life is a filthy byproduct of some God's guilty pleasure?  Are we the universes' santorum?

*

Ichimaru Gin :]

  • Undefeated FEer
  • Planar Moderator
  • 8880
  • +3/-3
  • Semper vigilans
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #109 on: May 15, 2012, 10:03:40 AM »
Quote
Essentially, my reason for being a deist is the fact that conditions in the universe were just right for intelligent life, able to observe, wonder, reason and record the world around us, to not only emerge, but apparently (according to most experts on the matter) to flourish.

I'd say this universe has been terribly designed for any life, much less intelligent life. If we're the only life in the universe, then it has been set up so that it can emerge in just one sextillionth of star systems. But let's ignore that speculation and just look at our home system:

On this planet 71% of the surface is covered by water, most of the landmass is actually mountains, desert, tundra and other environments where humans have difficulty surviving, but let's be generousd and say that we can live on 25% of the remaining land. Ignoring all the moons and asteroids that means humans can live on 0.105% of the planetary surface area of the solar system. Of this pitiful plot of land, we face natural disasters by the bucket-load.

If a farmer who had a plot of 100 acres could only grow a single solitary hedge which was constantly flooded, scorched, frozen, attacked by insects I doubt you'd conclude that it was a well-designed, efficiently run farm.

If I were an omnipotent designer who had to design a universe to support life I could think of a thousand better formats than dropping them on a dangerously unstable ball hurtling through a debris-strewn area of space around a nuclear explosion.

And despite all this, the prevalent belief is that life is flourishing all through the universe.  Apparently he knew what he was doing.

Life is flourishing in spite of a hostile universe, not because of it. Our own planet, a veritable garden of Eden compared to most of the observable universe, has only supported life for a short part of its existence,  and intelligent life for a pitiful amount of time,  during which time life has been pushed to the edge by collisions with rocks, ice ages, volcanic catastrophes, oxygen poisoning etc etc.

It's a universe which can support life but if it was designed, life seems to be a byproduct, rather than the aim. If anything, it seems to be a universe designed to sate a fetish for giant spheres and discs, or for big explosions. If you want to argue for a deistic fireworks enthusiast I'd find it difficult to argue against it but life is quite evidently not the primary function of this universe.
And I suppose you know the meaning of the universe. And you personally know how to make life, using a liquid based universe. You have seen enough of our universe to conclude life arose in spite of it. That the conditions are in no way interconnected, geared towards life arising. C'mon now, stop taking the mick and acting like you have a godly sense of the universe that escapes our greatest scientists and philosophers.
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

*

Trekky0623

  • Official Member
  • 10045
  • +0/-0
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #110 on: May 15, 2012, 10:13:24 AM »
You could just as easily say the Universe was made for creating stars, or forming galaxies, or gravitating objects, or forming elements. Life is a byproduct, but there are countless other ones you are ignoring.

*

Saddam Hussein

  • Official Member
  • 35188
  • +1/-0
  • Former President of Iraq
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #111 on: May 15, 2012, 10:18:11 AM »
And I suppose you know the meaning of the universe. And you personally know how to make life, using a liquid based universe. You have seen enough of our universe to conclude life arose in spite of it. That the conditions are in no way interconnected, geared towards life arising. C'mon now, stop taking the mick and acting like you have a godly sense of the universe that escapes our greatest scientists and philosophers.

Are you trying to shift the burden of proof?  Also, please don't use terrible British phrases.

*

Ichimaru Gin :]

  • Undefeated FEer
  • Planar Moderator
  • 8880
  • +3/-3
  • Semper vigilans
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #112 on: May 15, 2012, 10:47:47 AM »
Not at all. I'm just pointing out how ridiculous it is for somone to claim they can design a 'better' universe and act as if that can be ued of evidence of anything. Also, jog on.
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

?

Lorddave

  • 19823
  • +28/-60
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #113 on: May 15, 2012, 11:03:01 AM »
Our universe is not full of life easy environments.  Our universe is full of environments where life grows anyway.

Life can exist nearly anywhere. Maybe even anywhere. The properties of life are such that it builds itself around the environment, not the other way around.
Gone.

*

Chris Spaghetti

  • Flat Earth Editor
  • 12631
  • +0/-4
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #114 on: May 15, 2012, 02:31:30 PM »
Quote
Essentially, my reason for being a deist is the fact that conditions in the universe were just right for intelligent life, able to observe, wonder, reason and record the world around us, to not only emerge, but apparently (according to most experts on the matter) to flourish.

I'd say this universe has been terribly designed for any life, much less intelligent life. If we're the only life in the universe, then it has been set up so that it can emerge in just one sextillionth of star systems. But let's ignore that speculation and just look at our home system:

On this planet 71% of the surface is covered by water, most of the landmass is actually mountains, desert, tundra and other environments where humans have difficulty surviving, but let's be generousd and say that we can live on 25% of the remaining land. Ignoring all the moons and asteroids that means humans can live on 0.105% of the planetary surface area of the solar system. Of this pitiful plot of land, we face natural disasters by the bucket-load.

If a farmer who had a plot of 100 acres could only grow a single solitary hedge which was constantly flooded, scorched, frozen, attacked by insects I doubt you'd conclude that it was a well-designed, efficiently run farm.

If I were an omnipotent designer who had to design a universe to support life I could think of a thousand better formats than dropping them on a dangerously unstable ball hurtling through a debris-strewn area of space around a nuclear explosion.

And despite all this, the prevalent belief is that life is flourishing all through the universe.  Apparently he knew what he was doing.

Life is flourishing in spite of a hostile universe, not because of it. Our own planet, a veritable garden of Eden compared to most of the observable universe, has only supported life for a short part of its existence,  and intelligent life for a pitiful amount of time,  during which time life has been pushed to the edge by collisions with rocks, ice ages, volcanic catastrophes, oxygen poisoning etc etc.

It's a universe which can support life but if it was designed, life seems to be a byproduct, rather than the aim. If anything, it seems to be a universe designed to sate a fetish for giant spheres and discs, or for big explosions. If you want to argue for a deistic fireworks enthusiast I'd find it difficult to argue against it but life is quite evidently not the primary function of this universe.
And I suppose you know the meaning of the universe. And you personally know how to make life, using a liquid based universe. You have seen enough of our universe to conclude life arose in spite of it. That the conditions are in no way interconnected, geared towards life arising. C'mon now, stop taking the mick and acting like you have a godly sense of the universe that escapes our greatest scientists and philosophers.

*

Roundy the Truthinessist

  • Flat Earth TheFLAMETHROWER!
  • The Elder Ones
  • 26966
  • +0/-0
  • I'm the boss.
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #115 on: May 15, 2012, 08:09:37 PM »
Our universe is not full of life easy environments.  Our universe is full of environments where life grows anyway.

Life can exist nearly anywhere. Maybe even anywhere. The properties of life are such that it builds itself around the environment, not the other way around.
Life is flourishing in spite of a hostile universe, not because of it.

In both versions, this is an immensely silly argument.  How can the universe be said to be hostile to life if (as the great majority of experts on the subject agree, and you both rather incredibly seem to be implying in your next breaths) conditions are amenable to life all over the universe?  Sure, the universe appears hostile to life, but it is set up so that life arises naturally all over it.  As you both point out, life shows an incredible tenacity to exist despite the harshest of conditions.  So how can such conditions be said to be hostile to life?  What's hostile to us is obviously not hostile to the lifeforms that are able to survive it.

Quote
Our own planet, a veritable garden of Eden compared to most of the observable universe, has only supported life for a short part of its existence,  and intelligent life for a pitiful amount of time...

How is the length of time life and intelligent life has existed on this planet in any way relevant to the discussion?  It's a process.  It takes time (in this case, a lot of time).  And again, it's only a veritable garden of Eden for lifeforms such as us.  Lifeforms that developed under conditions we consider hostile would likely consider the conditions under which we live to be hostile to them.  You seem to be making such statements from an overly human-centric perspective.  Obviously that's not appropriate to the discussion.  And anyway, veritable gardens of Eden just like ours are believed to exist all over the place.

Quote
It's a universe which can support life but if it was designed, life seems to be a byproduct, rather than the aim. If anything, it seems to be a universe designed to sate a fetish for giant spheres and discs, or for big explosions. If you want to argue for a deistic fireworks enthusiast I'd find it difficult to argue against it but life is quite evidently not the primary function of this universe.

The level of complexity of giant spheres and explosions do not even compare to the level of complexity of the intelligent mind.  Saying that either of them or a million other random features of the universe might have been his grand purpose seems arbitrary when we have such a yardstick to measure with.

I'm not saying that he didn't likely have it in mind to create a beautiful and exciting and dangerous place.  I think that perhaps such things appeal to his sense of aesthetics, just as they appeal to ours.  I believe that the fact that we can share his love of the structure and chaos of the universe he created is part of what makes us important to his design.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

*

Trekky0623

  • Official Member
  • 10045
  • +0/-0
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #116 on: May 15, 2012, 08:12:35 PM »
If the universe was not suitable for life, we would not be here to contemplate it.

*

Roundy the Truthinessist

  • Flat Earth TheFLAMETHROWER!
  • The Elder Ones
  • 26966
  • +0/-0
  • I'm the boss.
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #117 on: May 15, 2012, 08:13:38 PM »
If the universe was not suitable for life, we would not be here to contemplate it.

Um... exactly?  ???
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

*

Trekky0623

  • Official Member
  • 10045
  • +0/-0
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #118 on: May 15, 2012, 08:19:19 PM »
If the universe was not suitable for life, we would not be here to contemplate it.

Um... exactly?  ???

So if we have a bunch of universes, or a cycle of creation and destruction of one universe, the one we will contemplate and think is special is the one that will seem to be designed for us. The bottom line is, there is no sign that the universe was created in anyway with life in mind. Life is exceedingly rare in the universe, yet it survives despite the harshness of it. An ideal universe could be teeming with life, but that is simply not the case.

*

Roundy the Truthinessist

  • Flat Earth TheFLAMETHROWER!
  • The Elder Ones
  • 26966
  • +0/-0
  • I'm the boss.
Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #119 on: May 15, 2012, 08:51:18 PM »
If the universe was not suitable for life, we would not be here to contemplate it.

Um... exactly?  ???

So if we have a bunch of universes, or a cycle of creation and destruction of one universe, the one we will contemplate and think is special is the one that will seem to be designed for us. The bottom line is, there is no sign that the universe was created in anyway with life in mind. Life is exceedingly rare in the universe, yet it survives despite the harshness of it.

Life is abundant in the universe.  And its presence is likely only growing.  And we are on the verge of conquering the stars, and placing ourselves (life) in even more places.  And we are likely not the only beings with such capacity.  Life is not rare.  It is common, and getting commoner.  Experts tell us it is all over the place.  That you judge the universe to be "harsh" for life's existence seems like a very subjective opinion, and I'd have to say one not borne out by the evidence.

Quote
An ideal universe could be teeming with life, but that is simply not the case.

The universe is teeming with life.  Have you not been paying attention?
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?