One Reason to be an Atheist

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Trekky0623

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #60 on: May 11, 2012, 03:12:18 PM »
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Obviously, gravity acts much faster than the speed of light; otherwise, the earth would be orbiting around a point where the sun was 8 minutes ago.

lol. I couldn't read anymore after that.

Why?

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A direct experimental verification in the laboratory that gravity propagates faster than light may now be possible.

See the conclusion.

http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/speed_of_gravity.asp



Anyone with a little bit of time on their hands can dismiss this paper.

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The finite speed of gravitational interaction in general relativity does not to lead to the sorts of problems with the aberration of gravity that Newton was originally concerned with, because there is no aberration in static field effects. Because the acceleration of the Earth with regard to the Sun is small (meaning, to a good approximation, the two bodies can be regarded as traveling in straight lines past each other with unchanging velocity), the orbital results calculated by general relativity are the same as those of Newtonian gravity with instantaneous action at a distance, because they are modelled by the behavior of a static field with constant-velocity relative motion, and no aberration for the forces involved. Although the calculations are considerably more complicated, one can show that a static field in general relativity does not suffer from aberration problems as seen by an unaccelerated observer (or a weakly accelerated observer, such as the Earth).

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The speed of gravity (more correctly, the speed of gravitational waves) can be calculated from observations of the orbital decay rate of binary pulsars PSR 1913+16 (the Hulse-Taylor binary system noted above) and PSR B1534+12. The orbits of these binary pulsars are decaying due to loss of energy in the form of gravitational radiation. The rate of this energy loss ("gravitational damping") can be measured, and since it depends on the speed of gravity, comparing the measured values to theory shows that the speed of gravity is equal to the speed of light to within 1%.

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Ocius

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #61 on: May 11, 2012, 05:44:55 PM »
There's no evidence that God didn't do it either, I guess. I'm only an atheist because of the problem of evil.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #62 on: May 12, 2012, 04:29:52 AM »
Bloody hell. The last time I saw something as glaringly wrong as that article was " class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">this


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Son of Orospu

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #63 on: May 12, 2012, 06:03:22 AM »
Bloody hell. The last time I saw something as glaringly wrong as that article was " class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">this

Your link is funny as heck.  I almost fell out of my chair!  I say it is proof of the conspiracy. 

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Mr Pseudonym

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #64 on: May 12, 2012, 06:05:39 AM »
Bloody hell. The last time I saw something as glaringly wrong as that article was " class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">this
I'm surprised there aren't a lot more views. That video is quite old.  But yes, very funny and extremely stupid. Almost to the point you think she is a succesful troll of the highest kind.
Why do we fall back to earth? Because our weight pushes us down, no laws, no gravity pulling us. It is the law of intelligence.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #65 on: May 12, 2012, 07:02:18 AM »
Bloody hell. The last time I saw something as glaringly wrong as that article was " class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">this

Which article?

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #66 on: May 12, 2012, 07:19:22 AM »
Bloody hell. The last time I saw something as glaringly wrong as that article was " class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">this

Which article?

The one everybody else has already had a good laugh from.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #67 on: May 12, 2012, 07:44:15 AM »
Nobody but you and Trekky. 

Since I posted it I have found many debates for both sides.  Guess we don't know the answer.


How does gravity escape a black hole?

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Trekky0623

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2012, 08:04:45 AM »
Nobody but you and Trekky. 

Since I posted it I have found many debates for both sides.  Guess we don't know the answer.


How does gravity escape a black hole?

They don't really know at a quantum level. Read here for some answers as to why that would be the case though:
http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/980601a.html

However, your link is funny because it's not just speculating about how gravity would work in specific circumstances. It is blatantly saying that effects we can measure or observe are wrong because they don't make sense to him. Furthermore, the language of the article reflects that of someone who does not understand the concepts he is talking about, specifically when he addresses the Big Bang. I actually don't see what point you're trying to prove here by giving us these bad science papers. Is it to show that science is flawed or incomplete? Well, that's the nature of science. But even if science were so tremendously wrong that everything we knew about the Universe was flawed in some way, it still would not give credence to a supernatural conscient being.

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DDDDAts all folks

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2012, 11:02:11 AM »
If gravity is the result of bending space time, then will it propagate at the speed of light?

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2012, 11:43:01 AM »
Being an atheist has, of anything, made me find life much more fascinating.

Why?
Because the answers are no longer "God did it", which I personally find to be a very boring answer. The details and logic behind answers are more fascinating to me, and like Vindictus said, the fact that we're this 4-billion year-old end result is just amazing, plus all the evolution going on around us and all the other stuff you get to pry into once you're out of the state of mind of thinking a God just did it all and science is unreliable junk. The ability to rationalize things like miracles or supposed sightings of the paranormal, understanding things that we didn't before.

Yes yes I'm sure you're leading into bringing up deism and how that's not incompatible nor are those traits necessarily only atheist blah blar but that's not my point. I didn't mean atheist specifically, I just meant going from organized religion to atheism (which is what I mentioned because I am atheist), believing things once I have evidence and not just taking other people at their word. I'm sure deism is coolio too, but I'm not a deist, so I didn't use it as an example.

If that's not what you were going to say, then sorry and ignore that and continue.

But most religious people nowadays recognize that "God did it" is not a valid answer to questions of how things happen.  For example, how does rain fall?  Two thousand years ago, before we had anything recognizable as modern science, religious people would have said "God did it."  But nowadays, all but the most ignorant of people who recognize themselves as part of an organized religion at least understand that rainfall is the result of a well-defined natural process, not divine intervention.

Most religious people accept science.  Organized religion and science are not mutually exclusive.  Consider that evolution is the mainstream theory regarding our origins.  The fact is that most people in the civilized world accept evolution, and most people in the civilized world self-identify as part of a religion.  You can be Christian and still believe in evolution; in fact I've seen the argument made that the story of Creation in Genesis is actually compatible with the theory of evolution (as long as you view it metaphorically... which is exactly how a great many modern Christians do in fact view the Bible).

The only question that "God did it" can be said to answer reasonably is how the universe started in the first place.  What's science's answer to this question?  There was a Big Bang (a hypothesis consistent with Christian belief; indeed, it was a person of faith who originally came up with the concept).  But how did the Big Bang happen?  What caused the first cause?  Science can't even begin to answer this question.  It is, indeed, inherently nonsensical.  Science simply cannot answer that question.

The bottom line being that "God did it" is only relevant in the modern world as an answer to a question that science by definition can't tackle.  So I think it's more your own misunderstandings about modern religion (and perhaps modern science) that makes you feel that your view that there is no God is so much more interesting and fascinating.  A Christian can be just as amazed at the natural processes that led to our existence as an atheist (indeed, many are).

When you get right down to it "We don't know" and "God did it" are basically the same statement in questions concerning our physical origins.  The atheists aren't any closer to answering the big question than the theists.

Where having a more spiritual outlook becomes more interesting is not in the question of how we got here, but rather in the question of why we are here.  Religion at least makes attempts at answering this question.  What's the answer for atheists?  There is no reason.  We are just here.  How boring.  What a cop-out.

So in your own subjective opinion, a lack of God makes the world more interesting, because of your misunderstandings of modern science and religion.  Objectively, the world is a much more interesting and complex place if God does exist.  Science is concerned with "how", and again, all but the most ignorant recognize that it does a better job of answering that question than faith alone does.  Theology is more concerned with "why", a question atheists simply dismiss.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Trekky0623

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #71 on: May 12, 2012, 12:20:41 PM »
Science cannot answer that question, you are right. But to fill in that gap with God make no sense at all. The honest answer is no answer at all.

And besides, most if not all religious people don't stop there. They pray to God as if he cares about their lives, and they believe that our lives are judged and that we will either be rewarded or punished for how we act or believe. God's morality is also absolute, objective morality, and anyone who does not follow that interpretation is a sinner. You're saying the Universe is more interesting with God, but I disagree. If God stands for, "I don't know how the Universe began," then yeah, maybe. But to fill in that gap, and then to judge others based on a fairy tale is ridiculous. The atheists are not any closer to answering the question of the beginning, you're right. But the importance is theists believe they know the answer, and that it is correct. Either that, or they believe in God for no rational reason. If all it was was that irrational belief in God, that would be fine. But that's not all it is.

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Berk

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #72 on: May 12, 2012, 12:33:46 PM »
Being an atheist has, of anything, made me find life much more fascinating.

Why?
Because the answers are no longer "God did it", which I personally find to be a very boring answer. The details and logic behind answers are more fascinating to me, and like Vindictus said, the fact that we're this 4-billion year-old end result is just amazing, plus all the evolution going on around us and all the other stuff you get to pry into once you're out of the state of mind of thinking a God just did it all and science is unreliable junk. The ability to rationalize things like miracles or supposed sightings of the paranormal, understanding things that we didn't before.

Yes yes I'm sure you're leading into bringing up deism and how that's not incompatible nor are those traits necessarily only atheist blah blar but that's not my point. I didn't mean atheist specifically, I just meant going from organized religion to atheism (which is what I mentioned because I am atheist), believing things once I have evidence and not just taking other people at their word. I'm sure deism is coolio too, but I'm not a deist, so I didn't use it as an example.

If that's not what you were going to say, then sorry and ignore that and continue.

But most religious people nowadays recognize that "God did it" is not a valid answer to questions of how things happen.  For example, how does rain fall?  Two thousand years ago, before we had anything recognizable as modern science, religious people would have said "God did it."  But nowadays, all but the most ignorant of people who recognize themselves as part of an organized religion at least understand that rainfall is the result of a well-defined natural process, not divine intervention.

Most religious people accept science.  Organized religion and science are not mutually exclusive.  Consider that evolution is the mainstream theory regarding our origins.  The fact is that most people in the civilized world accept evolution, and most people in the civilized world self-identify as part of a religion.  You can be Christian and still believe in evolution; in fact I've seen the argument made that the story of Creation in Genesis is actually compatible with the theory of evolution (as long as you view it metaphorically... which is exactly how a great many modern Christians do in fact view the Bible).

The only question that "God did it" can be said to answer reasonably is how the universe started in the first place.  What's science's answer to this question?  There was a Big Bang (a hypothesis consistent with Christian belief; indeed, it was a person of faith who originally came up with the concept).  But how did the Big Bang happen?  What caused the first cause?  Science can't even begin to answer this question.  It is, indeed, inherently nonsensical.  Science simply cannot answer that question.

The bottom line being that "God did it" is only relevant in the modern world as an answer to a question that science by definition can't tackle.  So I think it's more your own misunderstandings about modern religion (and perhaps modern science) that makes you feel that your view that there is no God is so much more interesting and fascinating.  A Christian can be just as amazed at the natural processes that led to our existence as an atheist (indeed, many are).

When you get right down to it "We don't know" and "God did it" are basically the same statement in questions concerning our physical origins.  The atheists aren't any closer to answering the big question than the theists.

Where having a more spiritual outlook becomes more interesting is not in the question of how we got here, but rather in the question of why we are here.  Religion at least makes attempts at answering this question.  What's the answer for atheists?  There is no reason.  We are just here.  How boring.  What a cop-out.

So in your own subjective opinion, a lack of God makes the world more interesting, because of your misunderstandings of modern science and religion.  Objectively, the world is a much more interesting and complex place if God does exist.  Science is concerned with "how", and again, all but the most ignorant recognize that it does a better job of answering that question than faith alone does.  Theology is more concerned with "why", a question atheists simply dismiss.

4 in 10 Americans believe in strict Creationism
http://www.gallup.com/poll/145286/four-americans-believe-strict-creationism.aspx

Christopher Hitchens debates Religion and Science better than I ever could.
" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">

"So in your own subjective opinion, a lack of God makes the world more interesting, because of your misunderstandings of modern science and religion.  Objectively, the world is a much more interesting and complex place if God does exist."

I'm sorry but how can "the world is a much more interesting and complex place if God does exist" possibly be objective?

I would also say that your comment: "Theology is more concerned with "why", a question atheists simply dismiss." relies on the assumption that no atheist has ever asked "why am I here" or any other 'why'-prefixed question? With all due respect sir, that is nonsense.

What would be more fair (and possibly even more accurate, in general terms) is that if an atheist asks 'why' something happens, or 'why' it has happened and a process or outcome can be shown as a natural progression without the need for a 'helping hand' from 'upon high', there is simply no need to ask 'why' as the 'how' is more than sufficient to explain the matter.

If a process in this world could be used as an example where 'how' it happens still leaves a question of 'why', then it does leave an opening for god to exist. (I'm willing for people to provide examples). However as science gains more evidence for the theories and processes it understands, it leaves less and less room for god to be required at all.

"That which can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #73 on: May 12, 2012, 12:47:12 PM »
There is not one physical piece of evidence that a God exists.

Atheism-1
Religion- 0

There is not one physical piece of evidence that a God does not exist.

See why this is not a great argument?  The whole point of religion is faith, so if there were physical evidence it would kind of defeat the purpose of religion.  I don't know if there is a god or not, but I kind of think that's the point.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 12:53:42 PM by OrbisNonSufficit »

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Supertails

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #74 on: May 12, 2012, 12:47:59 PM »
I'll respond when I get the chance, Roundy (on my iPod right now, not home), but it sounds to me like you're making a whole lot of assumptions about what I think. I was talking about my conversion from literal-Bible Christian when I was a kid to atheist as I grew up. There's a reason I specified that deism or any other forms of religion aren't the ones I addressed because they're irrelevant to what I was saying. I'm aware that there are a million and a half different forms and levels of spirituality and religion and lack thereof between where I started and where I am now but those aren't what I was talking about. I made sure to point out that deism and blah blah etc. can be just as fascinating but that it wasn't any part of what I was saying.

And yes, it's subjective, obviously. Why do you think I said it made things more fascinating for me? I think you're being a little silly saying its objectively more fascinating if there's a God, I don't really know why you think you can assign an objective worth to what is simply opinion. I don't remember ever trying to tell you that your beliefs are objectively duller than mine.
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Berk

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #75 on: May 12, 2012, 01:02:24 PM »
There is not one physical piece of evidence that a God exists.

Atheism-1
Religion- 0

There is not one physical piece of evidence that a God does not exist.

See why this is not a great argument?  The whole point of religion is faith, so if there were physical evidence it would kind of defeat the purpose of religion.  I don't know if there is a god or not, but I kind of think that's the point.

In our limited time on this planet, our understanding of science and nature at present does not require the existence of 'god' for it to work (Humans have only been on Earth approximately 100,000 years - the universe has been here for 13bn; before humans there isnt a spec of 'god' to be seen anywhere). Also, you do not need proof to show something does not exist, otherwise we would have to accept that flying monkey dolphins are swimming in the oceans and flying through the atmosphere at this very moment.

What is important to remember is that religion commands a lot of power in many walks of life; what I would say is that for them to have such power, they are the ones that need to provide proof in order to maintain their beneficial position in this world.

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #76 on: May 12, 2012, 01:14:34 PM »
There is not one physical piece of evidence that a God exists.

Atheism-1
Religion- 0

There is not one physical piece of evidence that a God does not exist.

See why this is not a great argument?  The whole point of religion is faith, so if there were physical evidence it would kind of defeat the purpose of religion.  I don't know if there is a god or not, but I kind of think that's the point.

In our limited time on this planet, our understanding of science and nature at present does not require the existence of 'god' for it to work (Humans have only been on Earth approximately 100,000 years - the universe has been here for 13bn; before humans there isnt a spec of 'god' to be seen anywhere). Also, you do not need proof to show something does not exist, otherwise we would have to accept that flying monkey dolphins are swimming in the oceans and flying through the atmosphere at this very moment.

What is important to remember is that religion commands a lot of power in many walks of life; what I would say is that for them to have such power, they are the ones that need to provide proof in order to maintain their beneficial position in this world.

Oh I would never suggest that we should make decisions based on religious desires as a community, its just that whether or not there is evidence for something says nothing of it's existence.  Until recently we knew nothing of dark matter, and we did not even know that the most common life form on earth even existed.  And there are things that are unanswered in science, its just that God is not a sufficient answer for science, and it should not be.  We might know about the big bang, but we have no clue what was before that or who or what created matter and energy, or if its eternal.


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Ocius

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #77 on: May 12, 2012, 01:23:30 PM »
Trekky, you're the biggest pseudo-intellectual ever.

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Vindictus

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #78 on: May 12, 2012, 01:41:03 PM »
I like this Berk fellow.

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Berk

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #79 on: May 12, 2012, 01:56:36 PM »
There is not one physical piece of evidence that a God exists.

Atheism-1
Religion- 0

There is not one physical piece of evidence that a God does not exist.

See why this is not a great argument?  The whole point of religion is faith, so if there were physical evidence it would kind of defeat the purpose of religion.  I don't know if there is a god or not, but I kind of think that's the point.

In our limited time on this planet, our understanding of science and nature at present does not require the existence of 'god' for it to work (Humans have only been on Earth approximately 100,000 years - the universe has been here for 13bn; before humans there isnt a spec of 'god' to be seen anywhere). Also, you do not need proof to show something does not exist, otherwise we would have to accept that flying monkey dolphins are swimming in the oceans and flying through the atmosphere at this very moment.

What is important to remember is that religion commands a lot of power in many walks of life; what I would say is that for them to have such power, they are the ones that need to provide proof in order to maintain their beneficial position in this world.

Oh I would never suggest that we should make decisions based on religious desires as a community, its just that whether or not there is evidence for something says nothing of it's existence. That I would agree with, however to base a belief as important as religion (which decides who I can/cannot sleep with, how many slaves I can own, what days I can work, if any future wife of mine needs to have her head or body covered) on the fact that there is no proof to say it does not exist seems ridiculous.

Until recently we knew nothing of dark matter (Agreed), and we did not even know that the most common life form on earth even existed.  And there are things that are unanswered in science (Also agreed), its just that God is not a sufficient answer for science, and it should not be (I agree again).  We might know about the big bang, but we have no clue what was before that or who or what created matter and energy, or if its eternal.


Knowledge of something now of something that was previously unknown is not nearly sufficient evidence for the foundation of any religion.

Similarly, new discoveries (such as the discovery of dark matter) only point to how little we still know about the universe, which again, is not sufficient evidence for any religion.

The majority (if not all) atheists I have encountered or read about acknowledge that there is an extremely likely possibility that there will always be unanswered questions regarding the universe which could allow 'god' to reside quite happily. However, all of the scientific knowledge and understanding we have at present does not require, nor even suggest the existence of a god.

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Trekky0623

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #80 on: May 12, 2012, 01:58:00 PM »
Trekky, you're the biggest pseudo-intellectual ever.

:(

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #81 on: May 12, 2012, 02:01:00 PM »
Science cannot answer that question, you are right. But to fill in that gap with God make no sense at all. The honest answer is no answer at all.

And besides, most if not all religious people don't stop there. They pray to God as if he cares about their lives, and they believe that our lives are judged and that we will either be rewarded or punished for how we act or believe. God's morality is also absolute, objective morality, and anyone who does not follow that interpretation is a sinner. You're saying the Universe is more interesting with God, but I disagree. If God stands for, "I don't know how the Universe began," then yeah, maybe. But to fill in that gap, and then to judge others based on a fairy tale is ridiculous. The atheists are not any closer to answering the question of the beginning, you're right. But the importance is theists believe they know the answer, and that it is correct. Either that, or they believe in God for no rational reason. If all it was was that irrational belief in God, that would be fine. But that's not all it is.

Those are, as I pointed out, questions of why we are here, not of how we are here.  I guess I give theists more credit than atheists for at least attempting to answer such questions.  The alternative, that there is no meaning, is boring.

I'm also having trouble grasping why having a solid moral code is inherently bad.  Religion, like everything else, is evolving with the times.  Many (if not most) liberals are still religious so I have trouble seeing where an entire ideology can be denounced based on a few bad examples.  There's also nothing wrong with believing we will be rewarded or punished based on how we act.  If it helps keep people in line how can it be a bad thing?  Guess what?  People are going to judge others based on how they think and act with or without the help of religion.  I guess a good example would be many modern prominent atheists themselves.

I also think most religious people would disagree with you that their reasons for believing are entirely irrational.  I think that for most people there's more to it than that a "fairy tale" said so.

I guess my biggest real problem with atheism in its modern, most vocal form is that its adherents tend to persecute certain groups of people based on their beliefs, which goes against values that I hold dear.  It would be one thing if, say, Richard Dawkins was a radical extremist even within the atheist camp, but more and more that just doesn't seem to be the case.

4 in 10 Americans believe in strict Creationism
http://www.gallup.com/poll/145286/four-americans-believe-strict-creationism.aspx

Sobering.  Of course, it's irrelevant.  A lot more than four in ten Americans are religious.  It's still a fact that many people who take religion for granted also do so with evolution.

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Christopher Hitchens debates Religion and Science better than I ever could.
" class="bbc_link" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">

I enjoy Christopher Hitchens.  He's not a blowhard.  This was an interesting video and I thank you for posting it.  If you can articulate how it negates my argument I'd be happy to attempt to respond.

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"So in your own subjective opinion, a lack of God makes the world more interesting, because of your misunderstandings of modern science and religion.  Objectively, the world is a much more interesting and complex place if God does exist."

I'm sorry but how can "the world is a much more interesting and complex place if God does exist" possibly be objective?

Because atheism renders the mysteries concerning our existence irrelevant, without adding anything new to the equation.  That it is less interesting can be derived mathematically.

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I would also say that your comment: "Theology is more concerned with "why", a question atheists simply dismiss." relies on the assumption that no atheist has ever asked "why am I here" or any other 'why'-prefixed question? With all due respect sir, that is nonsense.

The question of why we are here implies the existence of a creator.  If there is no creator there is no why, so atheists who engage in such exercises do so without understanding their own position.

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What would be more fair (and possibly even more accurate, in general terms) is that if an atheist asks 'why' something happens, or 'why' it has happened and a process or outcome can be shown as a natural progression without the need for a 'helping hand' from 'upon high', there is simply no need to ask 'why' as the 'how' is more than sufficient to explain the matter.

^^ proving the above point.  This is the central issue; science addresses the "how"; it is unequipped to address the "why".  Even if we knew everything about how we came into existence that it would be possible to know, it would do nothing to address why we are here.  It's an interesting question, and atheism renders it meaningless.

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If a process in this world could be used as an example where 'how' it happens still leaves a question of 'why', then it does leave an opening for god to exist. (I'm willing for people to provide examples). However as science gains more evidence for the theories and processes it understands, it leaves less and less room for god to be required at all.

"How" and "why" are two different questions; one's motive in a crime, for example, is a separate issue from one's method.  Explaining how can never explain why.  Science simply handwaves it, as it should.

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"That which can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."

Are we talking about proof here, or evidence?  Literally nothing has been proven.  There is evidence that we are here due to some kind of Creator.  Of course, none of this has anything to do with which is more interesting between an atheistic perspective and a theistic perspective.

I'll respond when I get the chance, Roundy (on my iPod right now, not home), but it sounds to me like you're making a whole lot of assumptions about what I think. I was talking about my conversion from literal-Bible Christian when I was a kid to atheist as I grew up. There's a reason I specified that deism or any other forms of religion aren't the ones I addressed because they're irrelevant to what I was saying. I'm aware that there are a million and a half different forms and levels of spirituality and religion and lack thereof between where I started and where I am now but those aren't what I was talking about. I made sure to point out that deism and blah blah etc. can be just as fascinating but that it wasn't any part of what I was saying.

To be fair, you made the exemption for deism, not for other religions.  But I can see how going from believing that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old to completely denouncing religion might have made life more interesting for you.  That doesn't mean that your previous beliefs were any less interesting, just that obviously such a paradigm-shift is going to have that kind of impact.

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And yes, it's subjective, obviously. Why do you think I said it made things more fascinating for me? I think you're being a little silly saying its objectively more fascinating if there's a God, I don't really know why you think you can assign an objective worth to what is simply opinion. I don't remember ever trying to tell you that your beliefs are objectively duller than mine.

Your beliefs are objectively duller than mine (there, I said it).  I'm really not trying to be rude or mean or anything, I'm just stating a fact.  As an atheist you ignore a lot of what makes life and the question of our existence interesting.  Obviously that's not a conscious choice on your part; it's just the way things are.
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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #82 on: May 12, 2012, 02:04:19 PM »
There is not one physical piece of evidence that a God exists.

Atheism-1
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There is not one physical piece of evidence that a God does not exist.

See why this is not a great argument?  The whole point of religion is faith, so if there were physical evidence it would kind of defeat the purpose of religion.  I don't know if there is a god or not, but I kind of think that's the point.

In our limited time on this planet, our understanding of science and nature at present does not require the existence of 'god' for it to work (Humans have only been on Earth approximately 100,000 years - the universe has been here for 13bn; before humans there isnt a spec of 'god' to be seen anywhere). Also, you do not need proof to show something does not exist, otherwise we would have to accept that flying monkey dolphins are swimming in the oceans and flying through the atmosphere at this very moment.

What is important to remember is that religion commands a lot of power in many walks of life; what I would say is that for them to have such power, they are the ones that need to provide proof in order to maintain their beneficial position in this world.

Oh I would never suggest that we should make decisions based on religious desires as a community, its just that whether or not there is evidence for something says nothing of it's existence. That I would agree with, however to base a belief as important as religion (which decides who I can/cannot sleep with, how many slaves I can own, what days I can work, if any future wife of mine needs to have her head or body covered) on the fact that there is no proof to say it does not exist seems ridiculous.

Until recently we knew nothing of dark matter (Agreed), and we did not even know that the most common life form on earth even existed.  And there are things that are unanswered in science (Also agreed), its just that God is not a sufficient answer for science, and it should not be (I agree again).  We might know about the big bang, but we have no clue what was before that or who or what created matter and energy, or if its eternal.


Knowledge of something now of something that was previously unknown is not nearly sufficient evidence for the foundation of any religion.

Similarly, new discoveries (such as the discovery of dark matter) only point to how little we still know about the universe, which again, is not sufficient evidence for any religion.

The majority (if not all) atheists I have encountered or read about acknowledge that there is an extremely likely possibility that there will always be unanswered questions regarding the universe which could allow 'god' to reside quite happily. However, all of the scientific knowledge and understanding we have at present does not require, nor even suggest the existence of a god.

I completely understand that from a scientific point of view that religion has no physical evidence, but that is irrelevant because religion is not science, nor does it claim to be (at least not my personal faith).

My issue with the original post is that it makes it seem like what science thinks is important has some sort of significance over religion, or that they are in some sort of competition.  Me saying that there are things undiscovered was really just in reference to your suggestion that we don't need god to explain the workings of our universe, but that is only so far as correct if you are willing to accept that we have no explanation for things, which is where God comes in.  But I think that whole idea is ridiculous in general, because they are completely separate.

My original point still stands as to say that whether or not there is evidence for something says nothing of its existence.

Science is here to answer a completely different question than religion, one asks how while the other asks why, and so putting them in some sort of point system versus each other is idiotic in my opinion.

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #83 on: May 12, 2012, 02:31:19 PM »
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"So in your own subjective opinion, a lack of God makes the world more interesting, because of your misunderstandings of modern science and religion.  Objectively, the world is a much more interesting and complex place if God does exist."

I'm sorry but how can "the world is a much more interesting and complex place if God does exist" possibly be objective?

Because atheism renders the mysteries concerning our existence irrelevant, without adding anything new to the equation.  That it is less interesting can be derived mathematically.

*** This of course is conflict of opinion. That amoeba and humans, the Amazon and Everest can exist on the same planet through natural processes is a real beauty to me. I am more than happy for you to find such beauty through any belief you choose. However I would maintain that from my view, there is no 'evidence' to suggest a 'creator' got us here, or anything in the universe, other than the gaps in our existing knowledge.***

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I would also say that your comment: "Theology is more concerned with "why", a question atheists simply dismiss." relies on the assumption that no atheist has ever asked "why am I here" or any other 'why'-prefixed question? With all due respect sir, that is nonsense.

The question of why we are here implies the existence of a creator.  If there is no creator there is no why, so atheists who engage in such exercises do so without understanding their own position.

***I understand and I myself, never need to ask 'why' (in terms of our existence) but I would add that to think I 'know everything' would be a total lie. I was trying to say that stating atheists 'dismiss' the 'why' makes it sound like we're puddle-dodging part of the argument...when we just have no need to encounter it as you know and point out :) (Thank you!) ***

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What would be more fair (and possibly even more accurate, in general terms) is that if an atheist asks 'why' something happens, or 'why' it has happened and a process or outcome can be shown as a natural progression without the need for a 'helping hand' from 'upon high', there is simply no need to ask 'why' as the 'how' is more than sufficient to explain the matter.

^^ proving the above point.  This is the central issue; science addresses the "how"; it is unequipped to address the "why".  Even if we knew everything about how we came into existence that it would be possible to know, it would do nothing to address why we are here.  It's an interesting question, and atheism renders it meaningless.

*** I feel this almost counters your previous statement which I essentially agreed with. We [atheists] don't ask "why" because we don't need to. "Believers" need to ask why because they are either unsatisfied with the 'natural' process not requiring god, or they believe they are going somewhere once they kick the bucket. ***

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If a process in this world could be used as an example where 'how' it happens still leaves a question of 'why', then it does leave an opening for god to exist. (I'm willing for people to provide examples). However as science gains more evidence for the theories and processes it understands, it leaves less and less room for god to be required at all.

"How" and "why" are two different questions; one's motive in a crime, for example, is a separate issue from one's method.  Explaining how can never explain why.  Science simply handwaves it, as it should.

*** I would tend to agree and I'll leave it there - I don't want to clog this thread with the debate about the origins of the human mind! I'm sure that will crop up elsewhere :) ***


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"That which can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."

Are we talking about proof here, or evidence?  Literally nothing has been proven.  There is evidence that we are here due to some kind of Creator.  Of course, none of this has anything to do with which is more interesting between an atheistic perspective and a theistic perspective.

***The quote was another snippet of Hitchens that I think he 'borrowed' from someone previously.

I would be interested in the evidence you refer to. One thing I would agree with, is that creator or not, the debate certainly makes everything more interesting :) ***


*** My apologies, the research and Hitchens video were just for interest and I thought they may help add to the discussion; they were not 'meant' to directly respond to any parts of your comment, I would like to have the confidence in myself to do that :) ***

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #84 on: May 12, 2012, 02:34:37 PM »
@Roundy: Right, I only said deism and I should've been clearer, but I meant to make the point that I'm just talking about that specific scenario. And yes, I do find things more fascinating from this view. I know you're determined to show that it's not and I'm wrong and you have a problem with atheism but that's just how it is for me.

And no. If you wanted to play that I'd say you ignore the big mysteries (like where everything came from, what was before the universe, how did it start) by chalking it up to "um god" rather than looking into it with any sort of scientific and logical rigor. It's got about the same amount of truth as your statement. Because I'm an atheist means I can't engage in philosophy? And I don't see why your views on our existence are somehow more exciting than mine, I guess I derive more excitement and intrigue from mystery and discovering things than you do. Perhaps I find the idea that we all have to make our own meanings in life much more interesting than "make god happy" or "who knows?"

Again, I think you're out of your depth here—not in that I'm the better debater, I know I suck (I should probably just leave it to Berk before I muck up the argument), but in that you're trying to press a point that's inherent flawed, trying to use a subjective measurement objectively. Especially using math, thinking that you yourself can manage to add all the intricacies of each philosophy or belief, assigning each one a specific value to come to total sums of how interesting each is, and come up with some sort equation to decide that math says yours is more interesting. Please, show me this equation and your work, and how you found and calculated every aspect of each belief and objectively assigned levels of interest to each facet of them.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 02:37:03 PM by Supertails »
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Berk

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #85 on: May 12, 2012, 02:40:41 PM »
There is not one physical piece of evidence that a God exists.

Atheism-1
Religion- 0

There is not one physical piece of evidence that a God does not exist.

See why this is not a great argument?  The whole point of religion is faith, so if there were physical evidence it would kind of defeat the purpose of religion.  I don't know if there is a god or not, but I kind of think that's the point.

In our limited time on this planet, our understanding of science and nature at present does not require the existence of 'god' for it to work (Humans have only been on Earth approximately 100,000 years - the universe has been here for 13bn; before humans there isnt a spec of 'god' to be seen anywhere). Also, you do not need proof to show something does not exist, otherwise we would have to accept that flying monkey dolphins are swimming in the oceans and flying through the atmosphere at this very moment.

What is important to remember is that religion commands a lot of power in many walks of life; what I would say is that for them to have such power, they are the ones that need to provide proof in order to maintain their beneficial position in this world.

Oh I would never suggest that we should make decisions based on religious desires as a community, its just that whether or not there is evidence for something says nothing of it's existence. That I would agree with, however to base a belief as important as religion (which decides who I can/cannot sleep with, how many slaves I can own, what days I can work, if any future wife of mine needs to have her head or body covered) on the fact that there is no proof to say it does not exist seems ridiculous.

Until recently we knew nothing of dark matter (Agreed), and we did not even know that the most common life form on earth even existed.  And there are things that are unanswered in science (Also agreed), its just that God is not a sufficient answer for science, and it should not be (I agree again).  We might know about the big bang, but we have no clue what was before that or who or what created matter and energy, or if its eternal.


Knowledge of something now of something that was previously unknown is not nearly sufficient evidence for the foundation of any religion.

Similarly, new discoveries (such as the discovery of dark matter) only point to how little we still know about the universe, which again, is not sufficient evidence for any religion.

The majority (if not all) atheists I have encountered or read about acknowledge that there is an extremely likely possibility that there will always be unanswered questions regarding the universe which could allow 'god' to reside quite happily. However, all of the scientific knowledge and understanding we have at present does not require, nor even suggest the existence of a god.

I completely understand that from a scientific point of view that religion has no physical evidence, but that is irrelevant because religion is not science, nor does it claim to be (at least not my personal faith).

My issue with the original post is that it makes it seem like what science thinks is important has some sort of significance over religion, or that they are in some sort of competition.  Me saying that there are things undiscovered was really just in reference to your suggestion that we don't need god to explain the workings of our universe, but that is only so far as correct if you are willing to accept that we have no explanation for things, which is where God comes in.  But I think that whole idea is ridiculous in general, because they are completely separate.

My original point still stands as to say that whether or not there is evidence for something says nothing of its existence.

Science is here to answer a completely different question than religion, one asks how while the other asks why, and so putting them in some sort of point system versus each other is idiotic in my opinion.

I see - I think I was arguing a point you weren't making, apologies.

I think my response to your view is mostly covered in my response to "Roundy" - atheists have no need for a 'why' if science shows we are here through a natural process that required no input from 'The Big Man' (or A. N. Other) . I think science vs religion begins when 'believers' ask the question 'why are we here' and come to a creator-based result for which atheists would argue that there is no evidence to suggest such a conclusion can or needs to be made.

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Berk

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #86 on: May 12, 2012, 02:49:06 PM »
Re - Dawkins' "militant secularism/atheism" (as it's dubbed in the UK by believers), the reason he is so much more vocal and apparently 'verbally violent' about it is because of his profession and the stumbling blocks to its progress because of religious interference, such as: Dawkins and his colleagues can dedicate a lifetime of work to understanding and explaining evolution yet it gets ridiculed, even stepped over in some states/schools/religious groups. Dawkins: I am disappoint.


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Vindictus

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #87 on: May 12, 2012, 11:26:44 PM »
I don't understand how worldviews can be more objectively interesting than others, since interest is a subjective issue. Roundy, I find a universe devoid of purpose more interesting and rational, both because I don't believe a creator exists and because I find that a purpose limits something. That's not objectively less interesting, and it doesn't make me superior to others.

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Vindictus

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #88 on: May 12, 2012, 11:31:15 PM »
Re - Dawkins' "militant secularism/atheism" (as it's dubbed in the UK by believers), the reason he is so much more vocal and apparently 'verbally violent' about it is because of his profession and the stumbling blocks to its progress because of religious interference, such as: Dawkins and his colleagues can dedicate a lifetime of work to understanding and explaining evolution yet it gets ridiculed, even stepped over in some states/schools/religious groups. Dawkins: I am disappoint.

I personally wouldn't describe Dawkins as verbally violent. Hitchens had much more intensity. If anything Dawkins is too soft.

I'm biased though.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: One Reason to be an Atheist
« Reply #89 on: May 12, 2012, 11:49:17 PM »
Because atheism renders the mysteries concerning our existence irrelevant, without adding anything new to the equation.  That it is less interesting can be derived mathematically.

*** This of course is conflict of opinion. That amoeba and humans, the Amazon and Everest can exist on the same planet through natural processes is a real beauty to me. I am more than happy for you to find such beauty through any belief you choose. However I would maintain that from my view, there is no 'evidence' to suggest a 'creator' got us here, or anything in the universe, other than the gaps in our existing knowledge.***

No, there's no difference of opinion here (at least not as you're referencing).  As I already stated, science and religion are not mutually exclusive.  It's possible to recognize that natural processes led to the existence of amoeba and humans, the Amazon and Everest on the same planet through natural processes just as an atheist can.  How such a thing happened is firmly in the realm of science.  Why it happened, science cannot address.  With an intelligent creator in the mix we can speculate on and at least attempt to reason out his motives for designing the world in the manner he did (while still being just as fascinated by the question of how it happened).  Take the intelligent creator away, and we're left without the question even mattering.  You seem to be equating science with atheism and obviously that is not an accurate thing to do.

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The question of why we are here implies the existence of a creator.  If there is no creator there is no why, so atheists who engage in such exercises do so without understanding their own position.

***I understand and I myself, never need to ask 'why' (in terms of our existence) but I would add that to think I 'know everything' would be a total lie. I was trying to say that stating atheists 'dismiss' the 'why' makes it sound like we're puddle-dodging part of the argument...when we just have no need to encounter it as you know and point out :) (Thank you!) ***

Please understand that I'm not saying that a religious viewpoint is more "right" than an atheist one, just that it's more interesting.  You're right, if you don't believe in God you don't *have* to ask the question; but in taking away the question, your belief is just duller than the alternatives.

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^^ proving the above point.  This is the central issue; science addresses the "how"; it is unequipped to address the "why".  Even if we knew everything about how we came into existence that it would be possible to know, it would do nothing to address why we are here.  It's an interesting question, and atheism renders it meaningless.

*** I feel this almost counters your previous statement which I essentially agreed with. We [atheists] don't ask "why" because we don't need to. "Believers" need to ask why because they are either unsatisfied with the 'natural' process not requiring god, or they believe they are going somewhere once they kick the bucket. ***

This is, again, very much in line with the point I'm making: that theism is inherently more interesting than atheism, because theism forces the question while atheism simply ignores it.

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***The quote was another snippet of Hitchens that I think he 'borrowed' from someone previously.

I would be interested in the evidence you refer to. One thing I would agree with, is that creator or not, the debate certainly makes everything more interesting :) ***

Essentially, my reason for being a deist is the fact that conditions in the universe were just right for intelligent life, able to observe, wonder, reason and record the world around us, to not only emerge, but apparently (according to most experts on the matter) to flourish.  People talk about the so-called "Goldilocks Zone" and the fact that the Earth is just the right distance from the sun (and I believe other factors, such as the possibility of water springing up) for life to develop.  The simple matter is that the entire universe can be seen as such a zone, and that if one of several factors in the universe's early development had been only slightly different, life, much less intelligent, sentient life, would not even be possible.  This strongly suggests design to me.

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*** My apologies, the research and Hitchens video were just for interest and I thought they may help add to the discussion; they were not 'meant' to directly respond to any parts of your comment, I would like to have the confidence in myself to do that :) ***

Oh, no need to apologize.  As I said, I enjoyed the video.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?