Poll

What should be allowed

Abortion is wrong in both cases
Abortion for Women only
Abortion for Men only
Abortion for all equally.

Male Abortion

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #30 on: May 11, 2012, 01:39:47 PM »
Even if it were the same financial risk, in no other moral dilemma would we say someone can force someone to undergo a medical procedure because they might lose money if the procedure is not done. The rights of the body outweigh the financial risks. Sorry, but they do.

I'm not talking about forcing the woman to physically abort the child.  I am talking about a paper abortion.  The male should be allowed to disconnect all responsibility completely from the child if he wishes. 


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rooster

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #31 on: May 11, 2012, 01:48:23 PM »
Even if it were the same financial risk, in no other moral dilemma would we say someone can force someone to undergo a medical procedure because they might lose money if the procedure is not done. The rights of the body outweigh the financial risks. Sorry, but they do.

I'm not talking about forcing the woman to physically abort the child.  I am talking about a paper abortion.  The male should be allowed to disconnect all responsibility completely from the child if he wishes.
But that's so messed up. We can't just leave a mother to care for her child alone sending her and her offspring into poverty because the father felt like abandoning his responsibility.

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Trekky0623

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #32 on: May 11, 2012, 01:49:41 PM »
Not to mention that simply being able to leave without the consent of the mother would have severe repercussions.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #33 on: May 11, 2012, 02:05:04 PM »
But that's so messed up. We can't just leave a mother to care for her child alone sending her and her offspring into poverty because the father felt like abandoning his responsibility.

Not to mention that simply being able to leave without the consent of the mother would have severe repercussions.

Why, she doesn't need his consent to abort the child if she wishes.  Isn't that a double standard on parenting rights?

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Trekky0623

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2012, 02:09:27 PM »
Aborting the child has to do with choices made about her body, though. Abandoning a child has to do solely with giving up responsibilities that you consented to having sex. It could be argued that abortion is also a denial of responsibility, but it doesn't matter, because it's her body to do with as she pleases. If it wasn't her body, and babies just popped into existence from a stork, then neither parent would have the choice of leaving unless they both consented for one to leave. However, as it stands, during pregnancy, the mother has the sole right to decide what happens to her body, assuming abortion is legal.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #35 on: May 11, 2012, 02:13:23 PM »
Double standard I say.

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Trekky0623

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #36 on: May 11, 2012, 02:14:44 PM »
Double standard I say.

Maybe. I see it more as just luck of the draw of the man not being the one that gets pregnant.

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #37 on: May 11, 2012, 06:09:08 PM »
Another reason why abortion should be illegal.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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rooster

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #38 on: May 11, 2012, 06:19:49 PM »
Double standard I say.
Indeed, but double standards exist. You'd be intimately aware of this if you were a woman, you privileged pig.

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Ocius

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #39 on: May 11, 2012, 07:35:27 PM »
It's sad if the father doesn't want anything to do with the baby

It's sad if the father wants it and the mother doesn't want to carry it to term.

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Trekky0623

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2012, 08:16:24 PM »
It's sad if the father doesn't want anything to do with the baby

It's sad if the father wants it and the mother doesn't want to carry it to term.

That would be sad. :( I don't see any alternative, though.

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Raist

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2012, 01:57:41 AM »
Aborting the child has to do with choices made about her body, though. Abandoning a child has to do solely with giving up responsibilities that you consented to having sex. It could be argued that abortion is also a denial of responsibility, but it doesn't matter, because it's her body to do with as she pleases. If it wasn't her body, and babies just popped into existence from a stork, then neither parent would have the choice of leaving unless they both consented for one to leave. However, as it stands, during pregnancy, the mother has the sole right to decide what happens to her body, assuming abortion is legal.

We understand this. Why doesn't the man have the sole right to what happens to his body? He is forced either to work and cover the child support or be thrown in jail. He can't decide he isn't ready to have a child and work 40 hour weeks. A woman can. We understand the differences in male and female reproductive organs. The question is this, no one forces her to raise or keep the child. She could put it up for adoption if she doesn't want it. That is not a medical issue and has nothing to do with their bodies. The man can not have the child put up for adoption and can't give up his side of the child.

Ignoring abortion, (warrdog's obvious attempt to get everyone to agree that abortion is evil) why can't the man put his side of the child up for adoption?

The woman has no physical need to keep the child, and it will in no way be a matter of her body her rights, why can't a man decide the child should be put up for adoption? If the woman disagrees so strongly she could find a way to finance raising the child as well.

PS at rooster a woman has no legal obligation to take care of a child past the age of 18 but under new laws men in some states have to provide medical insurance through college for the child (only if separated) so don't go on about obligations later in life, those are obligations due to attachment not legal obligations.

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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2012, 08:32:10 AM »
(warrdog's obvious attempt to get everyone to agree that abortion is evil)

You know you want to.


It's sad if the father doesn't want anything to do with the baby

It's sad if the father wants it and the mother doesn't want to carry it to term.

That would be sad. :( I don't see any alternative, though.

http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/articles/billboard-127517-boyfriend-jilted.html


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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2012, 09:42:50 AM »
He looks like he wants to eat the baby.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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DDDDAts all folks

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2012, 10:55:35 AM »
The guy knew what he was getting into when having sex. So I don't have much of a problem with a women choosing (with the consequences that entails) to keep the child even when the father doesn't want it.

I have more of an issue with situations where the guy wants to keep the child but the women doesn't. I also think fathers should be treated equally in a court of law in terms of custody, so that the women also has to pay maintenance.



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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2012, 11:01:55 AM »
If you take the typical pro-abortion stance that the fetus is not a human being, then to suggest that the male has any rights whatsoever regarding the parasite inside the woman's body is inherently nonsensical.

If you suggest that the male does (or even should) have rights because of the fetus's potential for human life, then you are veering rather uncomfortably into the arguments pro-lifers use regarding the sanctity of the life of the fetus...
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 11:03:56 AM by Roundy the Truthinessist »
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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DDDDAts all folks

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2012, 11:48:02 AM »
If you take the typical pro-abortion stance that the fetus is not a human being, then to suggest that the male has any rights whatsoever regarding the parasite inside the woman's body is inherently nonsensical.

If you suggest that the male does (or even should) have rights because of the fetus's potential for human life, then you are veering rather uncomfortably into the arguments pro-lifers use regarding the sanctity of the life of the fetus...

Whether the fetus is a human life or not is part of the debate but I think people often dismiss the fact that it might not be relevant to some people. Some people might just want to bring a life into the world and be a parent.


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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2012, 11:53:19 AM »
If you take the typical pro-abortion stance that the fetus is not a human being, then to suggest that the male has any rights whatsoever regarding the parasite inside the woman's body is inherently nonsensical.

If you suggest that the male does (or even should) have rights because of the fetus's potential for human life, then you are veering rather uncomfortably into the arguments pro-lifers use regarding the sanctity of the life of the fetus...

Whether the fetus is a human life or not is part of the debate but I think people often dismiss the fact that it might not be relevant to some people. Some people might just want to bring a life into the world and be a parent.

Sure, they can want to be a parent, but if they're male, and they take a pro-abortion stance, they can't reasonably claim that they should have any say in the matter.  And if they're pro-life, the question is moot; they are of the opinion that the baby must be brought into the world whether they want it or not.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?

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Mr Pseudonym

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2012, 05:24:16 PM »
He looks like he wants to eat the baby.
He also looks completely unconcerned that he is a white guy holding a black skinned baby.
Why do we fall back to earth? Because our weight pushes us down, no laws, no gravity pulling us. It is the law of intelligence.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2012, 12:28:42 PM »
It's sad if the father doesn't want anything to do with the baby

It's sad if the father wants it and the mother doesn't want to carry it to term.

That would be sad. :( I don't see any alternative, though.

The alternative is asking her if she's pro-life or pro-choice before you start dating, and whether or not she wants children.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.

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DDDDAts all folks

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #50 on: May 13, 2012, 12:34:05 PM »
If you take the typical pro-abortion stance that the fetus is not a human being, then to suggest that the male has any rights whatsoever regarding the parasite inside the woman's body is inherently nonsensical.

If you suggest that the male does (or even should) have rights because of the fetus's potential for human life, then you are veering rather uncomfortably into the arguments pro-lifers use regarding the sanctity of the life of the fetus...

Whether the fetus is a human life or not is part of the debate but I think people often dismiss the fact that it might not be relevant to some people. Some people might just want to bring a life into the world and be a parent.

Sure, they can want to be a parent, but if they're male, and they take a pro-abortion stance, they can't reasonably claim that they should have any say in the matter.  And if they're pro-life, the question is moot; they are of the opinion that the baby must be brought into the world whether they want it or not.

I was just trying to say that the decision to keep a baby doesn't necessarily hang on the fact that each parent thinks an unborn fetus is alive.

I'd say (and this is purely speculative) that the decision for most people is whether they want to be a parent or not and not whether the fetus can be classed as a 'life'.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2012, 01:01:25 PM »
It's sad if the father doesn't want anything to do with the baby

It's sad if the father wants it and the mother doesn't want to carry it to term.

That would be sad. :( I don't see any alternative, though.

The alternative is asking her if she's pro-life or pro-choice before you start dating, and whether or not she wants children.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.

Possibly the stupidest comment by Tom Bishop I've ever read.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #52 on: May 13, 2012, 06:10:30 PM »
Possibly the stupidest comment by Tom Bishop I've ever read.

Why is it stupid to ask a prospective partner whether they want children or would have an abortion if pregnant?

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2012, 01:33:08 AM »
You've never had a conversation with  an actual real-life woman before, have you?

People change their minds, they might want children later in life but not now; they might say they're pro-life but find when they get pregnant it's too stressful to carry to term and abort; someone who claims they never want babies might feel very different when pregnant; someone might feel pressured into keeping/aborting the fetus; ma pro-lifer might face too many health concerns to survive pregnancy.

etc.

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2012, 02:19:02 AM »
Well then this situation shows the usefulness of preintercourse contracts.
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

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DDDDAts all folks

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #55 on: May 14, 2012, 11:08:49 AM »
Well then this situation shows the usefulness of preintercourse contracts.

I always whip out my pen and get them to sign right on the... dotted line.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #56 on: May 14, 2012, 03:01:45 PM »
You've never had a conversation with  an actual real-life woman before, have you?

People change their minds, they might want children later in life but not now; they might say they're pro-life but find when they get pregnant it's too stressful to carry to term and abort; someone who claims they never want babies might feel very different when pregnant; someone might feel pressured into keeping/aborting the fetus; ma pro-lifer might face too many health concerns to survive pregnancy.

etc.

I believe you're talking about children, not women.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #57 on: May 15, 2012, 02:42:16 AM »
Good lord, man, I'm talking about people. People who can change their minds at the drop of a hat, who can find stress to be too much to deal with, who feel scared, alone, unprepared; people who might not give the issue a lot of serious thought until it happens to them, people under pressure from peers, societry, politicians, church leaders, doctors, parents, family and their neighbours to conform to a standard they might not hold.

You act as though people are rational robots living in isolation. We're not, and any experience with common or garden humans would make this blatantly obvious.

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Ichimaru Gin :]

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #58 on: May 15, 2012, 07:27:23 AM »
Sounds like a paragraph describing the overly needy and emotional, let's talk about all of our problems liberals
I saw a slight haze in the hotel bathroom this morning after I took a shower, have I discovered a new planet?

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #59 on: May 15, 2012, 08:05:13 AM »
Sounds like a paragraph describing the overly needy and emotional, let's talk about all of our problems liberals

Do you honestly believe that becoming pregnant faced with; a life-changing decision, a society trying to tug you one way or the other, trying to take account of the emotional needs of your partner, enduring the opinion of your immediate friends and family might not slightly affect a judgement you made whilst sober and ignorant of that atmosphere?