Poll

What should be allowed

Abortion is wrong in both cases
Abortion for Women only
Abortion for Men only
Abortion for all equally.
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Male Abortion

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Polly

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Male Abortion
« on: May 08, 2012, 03:19:02 AM »
I am a believer of the idea that consent to intercourse does not equate to consent to carry a child, thus pro abortion.

I am also a believer in the idea that consent to intercourse does not equate to consent for fatherhood.

So I ask you TFeS, are you pro or against the 'paper abortion', whereby a man can abort the paper trail of the foetus, removing all responsibility for the child.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2012, 03:41:14 AM »
It's sad if the father doesn't want anything to do with the baby the woman intends to carry to term but if he really wants to walk away then I can't see anything healthy arising from forcing him reluctantly on the child.
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Thork

Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2012, 03:50:31 AM »
Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on May 08, 2012, 03:41:14 AM
It's sad if the father doesn't want anything to do with the baby the woman intends to carry to term but if he really wants to walk away then I can't see anything healthy arising from forcing him reluctantly on the child.

I don't see why the tax payer should pick up the tab either? Getting rid of the paper trail is just a way to avoid maintenance ... a way to pass your financial responsibility onto others.
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Polly

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2012, 04:00:26 AM »
I agree Thork, but that is an entirely different debate, lets say hypothetically that in this situation the state doesnt have to pick up the tab and the responsibility lies with the progenitors.
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Thork

Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2012, 04:05:44 AM »
Lets say that goblins eat unwanted children anyway. By dismissing reality to make it hypothetical it just lost all meaning.
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Polly

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2012, 04:07:36 AM »
Also true, however it was more a philosophical question of equalities and such, rather than a question of how it would work in practice.
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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2012, 06:19:13 AM »
I cannot imagine any legal or moral justification for giving mothers near-complete freedom in choosing whether or not to be a parent, and not extending something similar to the father. In other words, I agree with the OP.


That being said, I do believe there are more intelligent ways to deal with the issue than currently exist. I could, for example, imagine a rough system whereby fathers had to register their disinterest in becoming parents (and thereby abdicate responsibility) within the term during which abortion is permitted. After that point, a father could not turn around and legally walk away from the child without the mother's consent. Obviously they would have to have been informed in a legally satisfactory sense (otherwise they could still walk away), but you get the idea.
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General Disarray

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2012, 10:11:29 AM »
Falcon punch to the gut.
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Quote from: Thork on April 02, 2012, 01:56:05 AM
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2012, 06:38:36 AM »
You can't allow the woman the right to a choice if you aren't going to extend said rights to the father.
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Lorddave

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2012, 06:49:41 AM »
I'm not even sure what is being asked. Fathers remove themselves from the responsibility of child care all the time. Is it right? No, but we can't stop them very easily.
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2012, 06:51:32 AM »
Should a father be allowed to paper abort a child?

They can't right now.  A father can be brought through the legal system for not financially supporting a child. 
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Lorddave

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2012, 07:05:41 AM »
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 09, 2012, 06:51:32 AM
Should a father be allowed to paper abort a child?

They can't right now.  A father can be brought through the legal system for not financially supporting a child.
That's family values for ya.
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General Disarray

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2012, 09:38:40 AM »
Quote from: Lorddave on May 09, 2012, 06:49:41 AM
I'm not even sure what is being asked. Fathers remove themselves from the responsibility of child care all the time. Is it right? No, but we can't stop them very easily.

You can ruin the next 18 years of their life with child support though.
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Quote from: Thork on April 02, 2012, 01:56:05 AM
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rooster

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2012, 10:28:15 AM »
This is a great question.

On the one hand, abortion takes a heavy toll on a woman's body so I don't believe she should be forced to abort if she doesn't want to. On the other hand, the father should have similar rights over the fetus and should definitely be made to pay if he runs off.

Ultimately, I suppose a paper abortion shouldn't be legal, but I'd hope that the couple could be mature and responsible enough to agree on something.
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Raist

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2012, 04:41:09 PM »
Quote from: rooster on May 09, 2012, 10:28:15 AM
This is a great question.

On the one hand, abortion takes a heavy toll on a woman's body so I don't believe she should be forced to abort if she doesn't want to. On the other hand, the father should have similar rights over the fetus and should definitely be made to pay if he runs off.

Ultimately, I suppose a paper abortion shouldn't be legal, but I'd hope that the couple could be mature and responsible enough to agree on something.


So then a woman should need a man's permission to abort the child. He should have the option of forcing her to bear til term and allow him to adopt it, but she would of course have to pay child support. Why should she be the one that decides whether there is going to be a burden on them both?
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Mr Pseudonym

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2012, 04:52:58 PM »
Quote from: Polly on May 08, 2012, 03:19:02 AM
I am a believer of the idea that consent to intercourse does not equate to consent to carry a child, thus pro abortion.

I am also a believer in the idea that consent to intercourse does not equate to consent for fatherhood.

So I ask you TFeS, are you pro or against the 'paper abortion', whereby a man can abort the paper trail of the foetus, removing all responsibility for the child.
I'm not really sure of what the OP is about here either so I want to raise a couple of points.
To me, having intercourse is a loose form of consent to having a child, particularly if no contraception is involved. Sex is used to make babies, it is its biological function. So if you have unprotected sex, you should willingly be able to accept the implications involved, such as an unwanted pregnancy.
Having said that, I am still pro choice for the woman, especially when you look at rape cases. Yet, based on my first point, I think each abortion case should be subject to the exact situation and context. Woman shouldn't just be able to keep aborting having made some stupid decisions themselves, such as not being able to keep there legs together.

But what about a couple who agree to have a baby, a few weeks later separate, and then the female chooses to abort? The guy has little say in the matter and there is really little that can be done, no matter how much he may still want that baby.

Please note, I really haven't thought much of this through, just typed straight from my head, and it is early in the morning here.
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rooster

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2012, 05:03:38 PM »
Quote from: Raist on May 09, 2012, 04:41:09 PM
Quote from: rooster on May 09, 2012, 10:28:15 AM
This is a great question.

On the one hand, abortion takes a heavy toll on a woman's body so I don't believe she should be forced to abort if she doesn't want to. On the other hand, the father should have similar rights over the fetus and should definitely be made to pay if he runs off.

Ultimately, I suppose a paper abortion shouldn't be legal, but I'd hope that the couple could be mature and responsible enough to agree on something.


So then a woman should need a man's permission to abort the child. He should have the option of forcing her to bear til term and allow him to adopt it, but she would of course have to pay child support. Why should she be the one that decides whether there is going to be a burden on them both?
Because the situation you just gave is absolutely ridiculous. I don't think the system is perfect, babies can ruin lives, but again- what you suggested is ridiculous.
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Rushy

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2012, 08:07:05 PM »
Quote from: rooster on May 09, 2012, 05:03:38 PM
Quote from: Raist on May 09, 2012, 04:41:09 PM
Quote from: rooster on May 09, 2012, 10:28:15 AM
This is a great question.

On the one hand, abortion takes a heavy toll on a woman's body so I don't believe she should be forced to abort if she doesn't want to. On the other hand, the father should have similar rights over the fetus and should definitely be made to pay if he runs off.

Ultimately, I suppose a paper abortion shouldn't be legal, but I'd hope that the couple could be mature and responsible enough to agree on something.


So then a woman should need a man's permission to abort the child. He should have the option of forcing her to bear til term and allow him to adopt it, but she would of course have to pay child support. Why should she be the one that decides whether there is going to be a burden on them both?
Because the situation you just gave is absolutely ridiculous. I don't think the system is perfect, babies can ruin lives, but again- what you suggested is ridiculous.

Sounds reasonable to me. Why should the woman get to the sole executor status over the decision to keep a child? The father should have just as much say as the mother does.
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rooster

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2012, 08:18:18 PM »
Quote from: Irushwithscvs on May 09, 2012, 08:07:05 PM
Quote from: rooster on May 09, 2012, 05:03:38 PM
Quote from: Raist on May 09, 2012, 04:41:09 PM
Quote from: rooster on May 09, 2012, 10:28:15 AM
This is a great question.

On the one hand, abortion takes a heavy toll on a woman's body so I don't believe she should be forced to abort if she doesn't want to. On the other hand, the father should have similar rights over the fetus and should definitely be made to pay if he runs off.

Ultimately, I suppose a paper abortion shouldn't be legal, but I'd hope that the couple could be mature and responsible enough to agree on something.


So then a woman should need a man's permission to abort the child. He should have the option of forcing her to bear til term and allow him to adopt it, but she would of course have to pay child support. Why should she be the one that decides whether there is going to be a burden on them both?
Because the situation you just gave is absolutely ridiculous. I don't think the system is perfect, babies can ruin lives, but again- what you suggested is ridiculous.

Sounds reasonable to me. Why should the woman get to the sole executor status over the decision to keep a child? The father should have just as much say as the mother does.
Because ultimately aborting or carrying the fetus is the physical burden of the woman. I don't think there's a way to make the whole situation fair or equal, but by default the woman's decision should be the final word.
But maybe there should be a way for the man to prove he wanted an abortion and not have to pay child support?
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Raist

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2012, 12:14:42 AM »
Quote from: rooster on May 09, 2012, 08:18:18 PM
Quote from: Irushwithscvs on May 09, 2012, 08:07:05 PM
Quote from: rooster on May 09, 2012, 05:03:38 PM
Quote from: Raist on May 09, 2012, 04:41:09 PM
Quote from: rooster on May 09, 2012, 10:28:15 AM
This is a great question.

On the one hand, abortion takes a heavy toll on a woman's body so I don't believe she should be forced to abort if she doesn't want to. On the other hand, the father should have similar rights over the fetus and should definitely be made to pay if he runs off.

Ultimately, I suppose a paper abortion shouldn't be legal, but I'd hope that the couple could be mature and responsible enough to agree on something.


So then a woman should need a man's permission to abort the child. He should have the option of forcing her to bear til term and allow him to adopt it, but she would of course have to pay child support. Why should she be the one that decides whether there is going to be a burden on them both?
Because the situation you just gave is absolutely ridiculous. I don't think the system is perfect, babies can ruin lives, but again- what you suggested is ridiculous.

Sounds reasonable to me. Why should the woman get to the sole executor status over the decision to keep a child? The father should have just as much say as the mother does.
Because ultimately aborting or carrying the fetus is the physical burden of the woman. I don't think there's a way to make the whole situation fair or equal, but by default the woman's decision should be the final word.
But maybe there should be a way for the man to prove he wanted an abortion and not have to pay child support?

So a woman can say no to the abortion and demand child support but the man can't? The man has sole financial burden on the child in most cases. Is a physical burden more important than a financial one in cases where the woman can safely bear the child?
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Mr Pseudonym

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2012, 12:50:16 AM »
Yes Raist because the man should've covered his penis up if he really didn't want a kid. You can say it takes 2 to tango, but knowing the current state of affairs on this, I would say the onus is on the man to use contraception. If he doesn't use it, he really has to live with the consequences.
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Quote from: hallsofvallhalla on July 07, 2010, 01:06:43 PM
Why do we fall back to earth? Because our weight pushes us down, no laws, no gravity pulling us. It is the law of intelligence.
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Raist

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2012, 01:46:41 AM »
Quote from: Mr Pseudonym on May 10, 2012, 12:50:16 AM
Yes Raist because the man should've covered his penis up if he really didn't want a kid. You can say it takes 2 to tango, but knowing the current state of affairs on this, I would say the onus is on the man to use contraception. If he doesn't use it, he really has to live with the consequences.

So a woman is in charge of her body and can decide to abort the child, but it takes a man to think about contraceptives?

My point isn't that men shouldn't have to pay for their children, my point is that women can give up the child for adoption or abort it and forgo any responsibility, but if the woman wants to keep it the man has to pay her money for 18 years.

This isn't a discussion on the responsibilities of birth control, this is a discussion about what happens once a woman is pregnant.
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Trekky0623

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2012, 11:32:27 AM »
The woman is in charge of the baby because it is living inside of her, and it is her body. Giving the right to abort to the father as well would give the women's right to her body to the father. Once the baby has formed inside the mother, it is her choice and her choice alone whether to carry it to term or not. It is her body.
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Trekky0623

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2012, 11:37:26 AM »
Here is what is going on.

Two consenting adults decide to have sex. They understand that the risks involved include disease, pregnancy, and other dangers that they accept when they have sex. If pregnancy does occur, both have accepted that risk. Pregnancy involves a fetus living inside the mother. Now we have abortion, which can stop this fetus from living inside the mother. If the mother chooses to perform an abortion, that is her choice. It is a medical procedure, and we cannot force medical procedures on others because people have a right to their own body. The man's desire for her to have an abortion is moot, because he accepted the risk of pregnancy when they had sex. The choice of abortion is not rooted in parenthood, but in what the pregnancy is doing to the body.
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EnigmaZV

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2012, 11:48:06 AM »
Quote from: Trekky0623 on May 11, 2012, 11:37:26 AM
Here is what is going on.

Two consenting adults decide to have sex. They understand that the risks involved include disease, pregnancy, and other dangers that they accept when they have sex. If pregnancy does occur, both have accepted that risk. Pregnancy involves a fetus living inside the mother. Now we have abortion, which can stop this fetus from living inside the mother. If the mother chooses to perform an abortion, that is her choice. It is a medical procedure, and we cannot force medical procedures on others because people have a right to their own body. The man's desire for her to have an abortion is moot, because he accepted the risk of pregnancy when they had sex. The choice of abortion is not rooted in parenthood, but in what the pregnancy is doing to the body.

So what option does the father have if he doesn't want the baby?
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Trekky0623

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2012, 12:01:21 PM »
Quote from: EnigmaZV on May 11, 2012, 11:48:06 AM
Quote from: Trekky0623 on May 11, 2012, 11:37:26 AM
Here is what is going on.

Two consenting adults decide to have sex. They understand that the risks involved include disease, pregnancy, and other dangers that they accept when they have sex. If pregnancy does occur, both have accepted that risk. Pregnancy involves a fetus living inside the mother. Now we have abortion, which can stop this fetus from living inside the mother. If the mother chooses to perform an abortion, that is her choice. It is a medical procedure, and we cannot force medical procedures on others because people have a right to their own body. The man's desire for her to have an abortion is moot, because he accepted the risk of pregnancy when they had sex. The choice of abortion is not rooted in parenthood, but in what the pregnancy is doing to the body.

So what option does the father have if he doesn't want the baby?

None, it's not his body to decide whether the baby should come to term or not.

I know people are going to should, "What about the father's rights?!" but after he has consented to the risk, he has no right to change his mind because it is not his body to make that decision about. If I sell my car to someone else, I accept the risk of not having a car. If  I suddenly change my mind, it is up to the person I sold it to to decide if I should get it back or not, not mine. I gave up that right when I accepted the risk. The woman is accepting the risk that she will get pregnant. The male is accepting the risk that he will make her pregnant. They are not the same risk.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 12:03:54 PM by Trekky0623 »
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EnigmaZV

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2012, 12:08:53 PM »
So you think he should be financially responsible for the child he didn't want?
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Quote from: Saddam Hussein on February 27, 2009, 03:43:45 PM
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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2012, 12:19:03 PM »
Quote from: Trekky0623 on May 11, 2012, 12:01:21 PM
Quote from: EnigmaZV on May 11, 2012, 11:48:06 AM
Quote from: Trekky0623 on May 11, 2012, 11:37:26 AM
Here is what is going on.

Two consenting adults decide to have sex. They understand that the risks involved include disease, pregnancy, and other dangers that they accept when they have sex. If pregnancy does occur, both have accepted that risk. Pregnancy involves a fetus living inside the mother. Now we have abortion, which can stop this fetus from living inside the mother. If the mother chooses to perform an abortion, that is her choice. It is a medical procedure, and we cannot force medical procedures on others because people have a right to their own body. The man's desire for her to have an abortion is moot, because he accepted the risk of pregnancy when they had sex. The choice of abortion is not rooted in parenthood, but in what the pregnancy is doing to the body.

So what option does the father have if he doesn't want the baby?

None, it's not his body to decide whether the baby should come to term or not.

I know people are going to should, "What about the father's rights?!" but after he has consented to the risk, he has no right to change his mind because it is not his body to make that decision about. If I sell my car to someone else, I accept the risk of not having a car. If  I suddenly change my mind, it is up to the person I sold it to to decide if I should get it back or not, not mine. I gave up that right when I accepted the risk. The woman is accepting the risk that she will get pregnant. The male is accepting the risk that he will make her pregnant. They are not the same risk.

Financially?  Yes it's the same risk. 
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rooster

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2012, 01:23:49 PM »
Quote from: WardoggKC130FE on May 11, 2012, 12:19:03 PM
Quote from: Trekky0623 on May 11, 2012, 12:01:21 PM
Quote from: EnigmaZV on May 11, 2012, 11:48:06 AM
Quote from: Trekky0623 on May 11, 2012, 11:37:26 AM
Here is what is going on.

Two consenting adults decide to have sex. They understand that the risks involved include disease, pregnancy, and other dangers that they accept when they have sex. If pregnancy does occur, both have accepted that risk. Pregnancy involves a fetus living inside the mother. Now we have abortion, which can stop this fetus from living inside the mother. If the mother chooses to perform an abortion, that is her choice. It is a medical procedure, and we cannot force medical procedures on others because people have a right to their own body. The man's desire for her to have an abortion is moot, because he accepted the risk of pregnancy when they had sex. The choice of abortion is not rooted in parenthood, but in what the pregnancy is doing to the body.

So what option does the father have if he doesn't want the baby?

None, it's not his body to decide whether the baby should come to term or not.

I know people are going to should, "What about the father's rights?!" but after he has consented to the risk, he has no right to change his mind because it is not his body to make that decision about. If I sell my car to someone else, I accept the risk of not having a car. If  I suddenly change my mind, it is up to the person I sold it to to decide if I should get it back or not, not mine. I gave up that right when I accepted the risk. The woman is accepting the risk that she will get pregnant. The male is accepting the risk that he will make her pregnant. They are not the same risk.

Financially?  Yes it's the same risk.
But even then, it's not the same risk. If the dad wants to ditch and he's made to pay child support, that's still not as much money as the mother will have to spend on the child. The father only has to pay until the kid reaches 18, but even then the mother will likely still be supporting her kid.
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Trekky0623

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Re: Male Abortion
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2012, 01:37:20 PM »
Even if it were the same financial risk, in no other moral dilemma would we say someone can force someone to undergo a medical procedure because they might lose money if the procedure is not done. The rights of the body outweigh the financial risks. Sorry, but they do.
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