Donut-Shaped Earth

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Re: Donut-Shaped Earth
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2019, 10:15:18 AM »
I was wondering how a theory like FE theory gets formed, and I came to the conclusion that someone must've thought of the original idea, and then it must've been followed by a long series of people pointing out flaws and then re-adjusting the theory (or thinking of new ideas) to iron out the flaws in the theory.

Actually what you just described is how the Spherical-Earth theory was formed. People have known the earth was flat since the beginning of time as it is clearly described flat and in The Bible. It wasn't until "free-thinkers" came along and were confused by simple tricks of perception.

I am no Bible Scholar nor Expert .
I don't even know how to speak, read , or translate Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek, which are languages from which the Bible was translated
Into the. English language.
And the King James Version was written in the English of the 1600's.
I knew one person who said the King James Version was the only true Bible because it was the only ''Authorized Version.''
He  called it "The Saint James Authorized Version" LOL
But who ''Authorized'' it ?
King James of Scotland !
But I think some of you FE' s need to talk to some of those people  before you start spouting all this "the Bible says" stuff.
You have to realize when it was written, context,  etc.
For example the word  "circle*  can be translated as "sphere," but also nowhere in the Bible does it say whether the  earth is a flat disc or a. Globe.
As for "free thinkers" the flat earthers are the ones who are confused into thinking the earth is a flat disc.
There is ample evidence of the ''Spherical Earth'' bit none for the ''Flat Earth.''
Just ask anyone who works in anything connected with the real world.
I do consider myself as being in that group. LOL

P.S. Those early people didn't ''know'' the earth was flat. They really just ''thought,'' it looked flat due to their limits at the time.
But since then the shape has been known from exploration ,geodesy,etc.
And pictures from outer space.
FE's....Denial of reality isn't going to change reality.

And show us dumb RE's an accurate '' Flat Earth Map " that is more accurate than the Globe. LOL
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 10:40:30 AM by Googleotomy »
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

*

John Davis

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Re: Donut-Shaped Earth
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2019, 10:17:27 AM »
David Wardlaw Scott, a clergyman and a fluent in Aramaic and Greek, has dissected the Bible from this point of view and has come to the same conclusion as other flatists.
[John Davis is a DANGEROUS TERRORIST who MAKES US LOOK BAD

Re: Donut-Shaped Earth
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2019, 10:55:48 AM »
David Wardlaw Scott, a clergyman and a fluent in Aramaic and Greek, has dissected the Bible from this point of view and has come to the same conclusion as other flatists.

What "conclusion" has he '' come to '' in regarding a flat Earth Map or a Globe ?
I assure you  he must be in the minority in the clergy  if he agrees with the " flatists ''  . LOL..
Wonder if he has ever been to sea ?  LOL
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 09:37:08 PM by Googleotomy »
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

*

rvlvr

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Re: Donut-Shaped Earth
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2019, 10:56:45 AM »
David Wardlaw Scott, a clergyman and a fluent in Aramaic and Greek, has dissected the Bible from this point of view and has come to the same conclusion as other flatists.
That is not saying much. Especially as the "other flatists" can hardly be called an authority of any sort.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Donut-Shaped Earth
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2019, 10:57:34 AM »
Googleotomy, are you suggesting that you have been to sea?
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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John Davis

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Re: Donut-Shaped Earth
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2019, 10:59:39 AM »
David Wardlaw Scott, a clergyman and a fluent in Aramaic and Greek, has dissected the Bible from this point of view and has come to the same conclusion as other flatists.

I assure you  he must be in the minority if he agrees with the "flatists" . LOL..
Wonder if he has ever been to sea ?  LOL
Its pretty well held in academia that the writers of the bible believed in a flat earth. It is not hard to see then that the work they produced would also describe a flat earth.

Does this actually say anything about the shape of the earth though? No.
[John Davis is a DANGEROUS TERRORIST who MAKES US LOOK BAD

Re: Donut-Shaped Earth
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2019, 11:06:42 AM »
Googleotomy, are you suggesting that you have been to sea?

Hello ! Space Cowgirl !
How many times do  I have to tell you ? LOL

Well if you believe in my fiction of SNAR......NO ! The Swiss Naval Air Reserve  Ships just operated on Lake Geneva, not the sea.
Well if you believe in my non-fiction  USN duty.....YES !  The USS Kenneth Whiting (AV-14) just operated on the Pacific Ocean At sea , not just on the lake.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 09:41:28 PM by Googleotomy »
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

Re: Donut-Shaped Earth
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2019, 11:09:22 AM »
David Wardlaw Scott, a clergyman and a fluent in Aramaic and Greek, has dissected the Bible from this point of view and has come to the same conclusion as other flatists.

I assure you  he must be in the minority if he agrees with the "flatists" . LOL..
Wonder if he has ever been to sea ?  LOL
Its pretty well held in academia that the writers of the bible believed in a flat earth. It is not hard to see then that the work they produced would also describe a flat earth.

Does this actually say anything about the shape of the earth though? No.

Once again consider when they wrote .
Stick close , very close , to your P.C.and never go to sea
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Look out your window , see what you shall see
And you all may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Chorus:
Yes ! Never, never, never,  ever go to sea !

*

John Davis

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Re: Donut-Shaped Earth
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2019, 11:11:15 AM »
David Wardlaw Scott, a clergyman and a fluent in Aramaic and Greek, has dissected the Bible from this point of view and has come to the same conclusion as other flatists.

I assure you  he must be in the minority if he agrees with the "flatists" . LOL..
Wonder if he has ever been to sea ?  LOL
Its pretty well held in academia that the writers of the bible believed in a flat earth. It is not hard to see then that the work they produced would also describe a flat earth.

Does this actually say anything about the shape of the earth though? No.

Once again consider when they wrote .
Quote
Does this actually say anything about the shape of the earth though? No.
Man, reading is really not in the wheelhouse of most round earthers.
[John Davis is a DANGEROUS TERRORIST who MAKES US LOOK BAD

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Ski

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Re: Donut-Shaped Earth
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2019, 11:29:21 AM »
Given how many times I've seen globularists tell everyone they should not believe the evidence right before their eyes, that curvature is simply too small to see, and should be accepted in the same manner one might be asked to believe in fairies too small to see, I expect the Toroidal Earth to gain many easily duped believers from their ranks. As I've often said, why stop with a globe; wouldn't the back of an enormous turtle also result in curvature too small to see?
"Never think you can turn over any old falsehood without a terrible squirming of the horrid little population that dwells under it." -O.W. Holmes "Truth forever on the scaffold, Wrong forever on the throne.."

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rvlvr

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Re: Donut-Shaped Earth
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2019, 12:47:10 PM »
Yes!

Re: Donut-Shaped Earth
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2019, 12:54:49 PM »
I was reading before kindergarten, read the Encyclopedia Britannica in 3rd grade, got 99th percentile on reading comprehension tests in school, had to read a lot at UCLA, read about science and current events daily, subscribe to Atlantic Magazine, and in retirement I am reading the entire internet. I made a 6 figure salary at a famous iunternational company where my job was to read specs, contracts, project plans, trouble reports, etc. Reading isn't my wheelhouse, it is my whole boat.

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Re the Bible and "context", number one, if it is the inspired word of God perfectly rendered, then the primitive people who wrote it is no excuse, it should get everything perfectly correct. It is okay to own slaves and beat them as long as they don't die in three days. It is quite impossible to say for sure what the exact Bible is, which translation is correct, and what those words mean, or even whether some of the books are in it. So start with one translation among many and apply your particular take on those words.

If the Bible was clear and unambiguous, there would not be thousands of Christian sects and centuries of argument by learned men earnestly trying to understand and coming to very different conclusions. There is no Bible-truth-o-meter, no more consensus than FE, no way to do anything but be convinced of your own opinion. Just like everyone else, including those who disagree. Everyone brings their prejudice and world view and the particular meanings they assign to the particular translation they chose/were given. No 2 people have the same comprehension process.

Contracts, textbooks, scientific papers, history books, treaties, etc try very hard to achieve the same meaning to all readers. The Bible is not like any of these, it is rambling, contradictory, vague, would be returned to the authors for re-write by someone looking for the kind of clarity and ambiguity those things have. Saved by faith, good works, predestination, or ? The Bible even says that many who think they are saved are not, seems proud it is not a 100% effective guide.

====================================================================================================

Regarding the use of "bendy light" in FE arguments, until you come up with some reliable science to describe this bending, all you have done is establish we can't know where anything is visually, all we know is it isn't where it appears. Maybe a giant scientific expedition to find out where everything is is warranted, but you will probably have to finance it yourself, maybe FES would take up a collection.

=====================================================================================================

TE must deal with gravity, unlike the endless (or will it end?) FE 32 ft/sec/sec acceleration explanation. On a sphere, gravity is uniform, so the center of mass and the center of gravity are the same. If the toroid has a relatively small diameter and you stand on the inside, you will weigh much less than on the outside. If you stand on the top, you will be pulled toward the opposite side of the doughnut as well as down towards the radial centerline under you. The downward pull would be stringer because the mass is closer, but with small enough diameter, you would also be pulled sideways. The atmosphere would be thicker in the inside.

Fix this by making the diameter quite large, but that is going to make distances on your map that are too long. Your map is going to have no correct distances anyway.

You need a large diameter to make the pull sideways be minimal. The cross section of the toroid has to be about the same as RE to make 1 g gravity and not notice the curve. The ring cross section has to be the diameter of the earth and the diameter needs to be immense, total thousands of earths to make gravity and the appearance of flatness work right. When you start putting land masses on it, you will run out of continents and have thousands of square miles of empty.

Or another approach is to take the area of the earth's surface and try some different toroid dimensions that have that same area. Your light is going to have to be amazingly bendy. And the curves are going to be quite apparent. Or make the toroid bigger and explain all the empty area.

How do gps and comm satellites work on TE? Sextant? Equatorial mount? DirecTV?

============================================================================================================

If you really think TE is or even might be true, well, spout endless words, replied to by RE logic and information, but just go on spewing words. It is the life of TE/FE. Come up with a map first, then show us the TE map with correct distances.

If you are making sport of trying to come up with some coherent alternative to FE and RE, then good news and bad news. Good news is you will definitely be able to put more and more words in your FAQ, forever. The bad news is your quest is futile, Gauss's theorem has not been disproved. You would be the guy, be a world famous mathematician!

Don't start with the easy part, start with the hard part so you will be less likely to waste your time on the easy stuff and then be disappointed. Start by making a toroid map. Not even that, start here:

Navigators and mapmakers have long used latitude and longitude, agreed by maps, google earth, navigation equipment, etc without inconsistency. First assignment is come up with latitude/longitude lines through known places and put them on your toroid. Then see if you get where maps and RE say you will on RE.

Get back to me when you have longitude and latitude mapped to TE.

How about a working 3d model with an accurate map on it and a flashlight sun showing us how day/night and sunset/sunrise work? RE can do this, can TE?
Is it possible for something to be both true and unproven?

Are things that are true and proven any different from things that are true but not proven?

Re: Donut-Shaped Earth
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2019, 12:57:02 PM »
That makes sense. It explains why people are always falling on mountains

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John Davis

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Re: Donut-Shaped Earth
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2019, 01:02:58 PM »
I was reading before kindergarten, read the Encyclopedia Britannica in 3rd grade, got 99th percentile on reading comprehension tests in school, had to read a lot at UCLA, read about science and current events daily, subscribe to Atlantic Magazine, and in retirement I am reading the entire internet. I made a 6 figure salary at a famous iunternational company where my job was to read specs, contracts, project plans, trouble reports, etc. Reading isn't my wheelhouse, it is my whole boat.
Apologies, the intent was not meant to insult you or your vocation.
Quote
=====================================================================================================

Re the Bible and "context", number one, if it is the inspired word of God perfectly rendered, then the primitive people who wrote it is no excuse, it should get everything perfectly correct. It is okay to own slaves and beat them as long as they don't die in three days. It is quite impossible to say for sure what the exact Bible is, which translation is correct, and what those words mean, or even whether some of the books are in it. So start with one translation among many and apply your particular take on those words.

If the Bible was clear and unambiguous, there would not be thousands of Christian sects and centuries of argument by learned men earnestly trying to understand and coming to very different conclusions. There is no Bible-truth-o-meter, no more consensus than FE, no way to do anything but be convinced of your own opinion. Just like everyone else, including those who disagree. Everyone brings their prejudice and world view and the particular meanings they assign to the particular translation they chose/were given. No 2 people have the same comprehension process.

Contracts, textbooks, scientific papers, history books, treaties, etc try very hard to achieve the same meaning to all readers. The Bible is not like any of these, it is rambling, contradictory, vague, would be returned to the authors for re-write by someone looking for the kind of clarity and ambiguity those things have. Saved by faith, good works, predestination, or ? The Bible even says that many who think they are saved are not, seems proud it is not a 100% effective guide.
While I agree that the Bible shouldn't be a source for scientific knowledge, I think your argument here is missing an essential point which undermines it; you seem to be judging one tradition of knowledges works by the metrics of another tradition. This seems like its a bit silly. I'd hardly judge an orange on how much like an apple it is.

Quote
====================================================================================================

Regarding the use of "bendy light" in FE arguments, until you come up with some reliable science to describe this bending, all you have done is establish we can't know where anything is visually, all we know is it isn't where it appears. Maybe a giant scientific expedition to find out where everything is is warranted, but you will probably have to finance it yourself, maybe FES would take up a collection.
Should we have to take up a collection?

Do we not pay taxes that are then earmarked for scientific inquiry? Why should our tradition not have access to these centers of power equally? Does this unequal distribution of power not undermine the aims of science in an open society?

Quote
=====================================================================================================

TE must deal with gravity, unlike the endless (or will it end?) FE 32 ft/sec/sec acceleration explanation. On a sphere, gravity is uniform, so the center of mass and the center of gravity are the same. If the toroid has a relatively small diameter and you stand on the inside, you will weigh much less than on the outside. If you stand on the top, you will be pulled toward the opposite side of the doughnut as well as down towards the radial centerline under you. The downward pull would be stringer because the mass is closer, but with small enough diameter, you would also be pulled sideways. The atmosphere would be thicker in the inside.

Fix this by making the diameter quite large, but that is going to make distances on your map that are too long. Your map is going to have no correct distances anyway.

You need a large diameter to make the pull sideways be minimal. The cross section of the toroid has to be about the same as RE to make 1 g gravity and not notice the curve. The ring cross section has to be the diameter of the earth and the diameter needs to be immense, total thousands of earths to make gravity and the appearance of flatness work right. When you start putting land masses on it, you will run out of continents and have thousands of square miles of empty.

Or another approach is to take the area of the earth's surface and try some different toroid dimensions that have that same area. Your light is going to have to be amazingly bendy. And the curves are going to be quite apparent. Or make the toroid bigger and explain all the empty area.

How do gps and comm satellites work on TE? Sextant? Equatorial mount? DirecTV?

============================================================================================================

If you really think TE is or even might be true, well, spout endless words, replied to by RE logic and information, but just go on spewing words. It is the life of TE/FE. Come up with a map first, then show us the TE map with correct distances.

If you are making sport of trying to come up with some coherent alternative to FE and RE, then good news and bad news. Good news is you will definitely be able to put more and more words in your FAQ, forever. The bad news is your quest is futile, Gauss's theorem has not been disproved. You would be the guy, be a world famous mathematician!

Don't start with the easy part, start with the hard part so you will be less likely to waste your time on the easy stuff and then be disappointed. Start by making a toroid map. Not even that, start here:

Navigators and mapmakers have long used latitude and longitude, agreed by maps, google earth, navigation equipment, etc without inconsistency. First assignment is come up with latitude/longitude lines through known places and put them on your toroid. Then see if you get where maps and RE say you will on RE.

Get back to me when you have longitude and latitude mapped to TE.

How about a working 3d model with an accurate map on it and a flashlight sun showing us how day/night and sunset/sunrise work? RE can do this, can TE?

Nobody believes in a toroid earth. The poster is a round earther trolling. Consider his post history.

To me either an infinite flat earth or a non-euclidean closed flat earth would provide better explanatory and predictive power than the current models.
[John Davis is a DANGEROUS TERRORIST who MAKES US LOOK BAD

Re: Donut-Shaped Earth
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2019, 01:29:41 PM »
Q1. Is the hole unseeable by radar? Amateur radio operators and scientists have bounced signals off the moon, and many radio telescopes exist. Bendy radio signals?

Q2. I would like some demonstration of the bendy light. This exists, as every P900 (P1000) FE and RE guy knows, refraction is in the curvature/visibility calculators, and hilariously, FEs and REs both find something in between what they expected in conditions where refraction occurs. You are going way beyond this, and before this can be true or useful, you will need experiments and equations.

Q3. Some frequencies of radio waves are sometimes reflected by the atmosphere. Ham operators say "the skip is in" and can sometimes talk long distances on low power. In my brand of science, you can't use that in an argument until you have experiments and equations. oN fe/te, you can just make stuff up and forge ahead, but why?

Q4. When I look up from the inside of the toroid, why does it not block out a lot of stars? This is some very custom bendy light, just where you need it to bend to make toroid look like sphere, but not where you don't need it.

Q5. ditto Q4

Q6. You are good here. If the toroid has diameter many times that of earth, they will be pulled toward the center of mass under them. You still have to explain how the toroid is so big and has so much empty space. Make it anything close to the size of earth and y6our light is going to do some amzing bending.

Q7 Let's see a 3d model with land masses on it and a flashlight. We know the edge of the lighted area pattern. Can you even imagine duplicating that with a flashlight and a toroid model? Make sunrise occur at the correct time and angle for all cities on you toroid, with accurate distances. Waiting for it.

Q8 ditto Q7

Q9. Moot point, earth is not TE.

Q10. We differ on the number of toroid planets by only 1, I think there is only 1 less than you do. Almost agreed. Interesting you should say extremely unlikely, making your argument weaker by your own admission.

Q11. Would be fascinated to see a diagram and explanation of what a compass shows on TE. On both FE and TE, you can state a simple explanation you pulled out of your a$$ and satisfy yourself. When pressed for details, you will need more modifications to the laws of physics. So far you have not used secret conspiracy of a tiny number of people doing global huge hoaxes requiring technology not known to exist flawlessly, always a tool in the  FE toolbox.

TE requires new laws of physics conveniently applied to explain.

Is it possible for something to be both true and unproven?

Are things that are true and proven any different from things that are true but not proven?

Re: Donut-Shaped Earth
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2019, 08:25:20 PM »
Judging one tradition against the metrics of another? Don't know what that means, but there have been different groups of Christians believing different and conflicting things. Schism. Lots of, denominations breaking up over gay marriage. Been going on since for about 2000 years, ever more denominations. Theologians disagreeing about the meaning of the Bible in various ways. Even the same church changes what they think the Bible means over time.

It is readily observable that well intended intelligent people can read the same Bible and take away different meanings. That seems a poor characteristic to a guidebook to save your soul. God, being omnipotent, could have made a book that had the same meaning to all who read it. But he didn't. Am I so dumb compared to him that I can't see this as a good thing, but maybe if I was smarter.

The road is wide but the gate is narrow. Many are called but few are chosen. I see that as pretty crappy. Could have had it any way he wanted, but apparently, he wanted to see most of usl in hell. So free will, could have done the right thing but he knew we wouldn't? Pretty harsh, eternal punishment for not having the right religious thoughts (or maybe not, as I pointed out, interpretations vary.

The Bible is much like FE - vague, inconsistent, and different stories from different people. Science is much more impressive, getting billions of people to understand things one way, a way that works and is confirmed countless times daily. Look at the gadgets and accomplishments of science. The accomplishment of the Bible is to provide an icon onto which each age projects its morals.

You can't tell me that this book of ultimate truth is interpreted the same by all who sincerely attempt it, from Baptists to Unitarians to Catholics to Calvinists etc etc etc. It is not just different outfits for the priests and different hymns, it is very different ideas about the foundations and application. Trinity or not? Gay marriage or not? Predestination? Existence of hell? Same book different answers. All day.
Is it possible for something to be both true and unproven?

Are things that are true and proven any different from things that are true but not proven?

?

blnjms

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Re: Donut-Shaped Earth
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2019, 04:20:57 PM »
Are you on a mission, blnjms? A mission to find all of the old and dead donut Earth threads, and breathe new life into them so we can help spread the toroidal world word?

I was in such shock about the idea--that someone would come up with it--that I reacted. I'd rather this idea gets a proper disposal and I will never bring it up again.

Why did you resurrect this thread again? It's because you want to make sure everyone keeps thinking about Donut Earth Theory, isn't it?

I do believe you have become the forum's preeminent Donut Earth Theorist!

Absolutely not; rather, quite the opposite. I was just in shock that someone could come up with such a theory. FE is hard enough to discuss for an orthodox RE'er like me--so let's not go the "donut" route!