Lunar Laser Ranging

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2012, 08:22:20 AM »
The documents were written with the funding, and therefore control, of NASA. They can't be relied on as a honest source.

Are you suggesting that NASA is the sole source of funding for the various LLR projects?

It has already been shown that NASA is funding the Lunar Laser Ranging projects at American universities, as this one was.

Read the previous thread on the subject starting here: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=53387.msg1308576#msg1308576

By the end of the second page I identify 5 Lunar Laser Ranging Experiments funded/controlled by NASA and one controlled by the military.

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markjo

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Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2012, 08:45:14 AM »
It has already been shown that NASA is funding the Lunar Laser Ranging projects at American universities, as this one was.

That isn't what I asked you, Tom.  I asked if NASA was the sole source of funding for the various LLR projects.  How do you know that there aren't other donors who contribute more money to, and thereby demand more control over, these projects?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #32 on: April 29, 2012, 08:56:25 AM »
It has already been shown that NASA is funding the Lunar Laser Ranging projects at American universities, as this one was.

That isn't what I asked you, Tom.  I asked if NASA was the sole source of funding for the various LLR projects.  How do you know that there aren't other donors who contribute more money to, and thereby demand more control over, these projects?

Look at the Lunar Laser Ranging project brought up in the first post for instance. From the bottom of the webage:

    "Finally, we thank NASA for supporting APOLLO and enabling it to get "off the ground", and more recently, a joint effort by NASA and the National Science Foundation to fund APOLLO at a level that will allow project completion and production of the first science results."

NASA provided the initial funding to "get it off the ground" and the NSF joined in to provide additional funding with NASA later.

NASA is clearly the primary keyholder here. Hard to say that they have no control or oversight.

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markjo

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Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2012, 09:02:44 AM »
NASA is clearly the primary keyholder here. Hard to say that they have no control or oversight.

And I find it hard to believe that the University of California at San Diego would give up their academic integrity by allowing a sponsor to control their research.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2012, 09:09:06 AM »
NASA is clearly the primary keyholder here. Hard to say that they have no control or oversight.

And I find it hard to believe that the University of California at San Diego would give up their academic integrity by allowing a sponsor to control their research.

I don't find it so hard to believe, considering that on the first page of this thread and in the previous thread I've shown that several people on the project's staff are NASA employees and the person directing the research is also a NASA employee.

Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2012, 09:16:23 AM »
NASA is clearly the primary keyholder here. Hard to say that they have no control or oversight.

And I find it hard to believe that the University of California at San Diego would give up their academic integrity by allowing a sponsor to control their research.

I don't find it so hard to believe, considering that on the first page of this thread and in the previous thread I've shown that several people on the project's staff are NASA employees and the person directing the research is also a NASA employee.

You don't find hard to believe a lot of things, but when it comes to concrete, solid evidence, it's much more difficult for you.
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

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markjo

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Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2012, 10:13:29 AM »
NASA is clearly the primary keyholder here. Hard to say that they have no control or oversight.

And I find it hard to believe that the University of California at San Diego would give up their academic integrity by allowing a sponsor to control their research.

I don't find it so hard to believe, considering that on the first page of this thread and in the previous thread I've shown that several people on the project's staff are NASA employees and the person directing the research is also a NASA employee.

Quote
Participating Scientists & Acknowledgments
  • Tom Murphy (UCSD): astrophysicist; project leader
  • Eric Adelberger (UW): gravitational physicist
  • Christopher Stubbs (Harvard): astrophysicist
  • Kenneth Nordtvedt (Northwest Analysis): gravitational theorist
  • C. D. Hoyle (UW): postdoc
  • Erik Swanson (UW): research physicist
  • James Battat (Harvard): graduate student
  • Eric Michelsen (UCSD): graduate student in physics
  • Adam Orin (UCSD): graduate student in physics
  • Eric Williams (UCSD): staff ressearch associate
  • Bruce Gillespie (APO): Apache Point site director
  • Jim Williams (JPL): LLR modeling/analysis
  • Slava Turyshev (JPL): LLR modeling/analysis; gravitational theory
  • Dale Boggs (JPL): LLR modeling/analysis
  • Jean Dickey (JPL): LLR modeling/analysis
  • John Goodkind (UCSD): physicist/gravimetry[/l][/l]
Hmmm...  Seems to me that a UCSD employee is the project leader, not a NASA/JPL employee.  JPL employees seem to be there primarily for modeling and analysis.[/list]
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2012, 10:15:56 AM »
NASA is clearly the primary keyholder here. Hard to say that they have no control or oversight.

And I find it hard to believe that the University of California at San Diego would give up their academic integrity by allowing a sponsor to control their research.

I don't find it so hard to believe, considering that on the first page of this thread and in the previous thread I've shown that several people on the project's staff are NASA employees and the person directing the research is also a NASA employee.

Quote
Participating Scientists & Acknowledgments
  • Tom Murphy (UCSD): astrophysicist; project leader
  • Eric Adelberger (UW): gravitational physicist
  • Christopher Stubbs (Harvard): astrophysicist
  • Kenneth Nordtvedt (Northwest Analysis): gravitational theorist
  • C. D. Hoyle (UW): postdoc
  • Erik Swanson (UW): research physicist
  • James Battat (Harvard): graduate student
  • Eric Michelsen (UCSD): graduate student in physics
  • Adam Orin (UCSD): graduate student in physics
  • Eric Williams (UCSD): staff ressearch associate
  • Bruce Gillespie (APO): Apache Point site director
  • Jim Williams (JPL): LLR modeling/analysis
  • Slava Turyshev (JPL): LLR modeling/analysis; gravitational theory
  • Dale Boggs (JPL): LLR modeling/analysis
  • Jean Dickey (JPL): LLR modeling/analysis
  • John Goodkind (UCSD): physicist/gravimetry[/l][/l]
Hmmm...  Seems to me that a UCSD employee is the project leader, not a NASA/JPL employee.  JPL employees seem to be there primarily for modeling and analysis.[/list]

Project Leader != Research Director.

And as you noted, NASA is there as the main people to interpret and analyze the date. Others are there make lame research papers on it.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 10:24:57 AM by Tom Bishop »

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markjo

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Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2012, 10:18:09 AM »
Project Leader != Research Director.

Then who, pray tell, is the research director?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2012, 10:19:09 AM »
Project Leader != Research Director.

Then who, pray tell, is the research director?

A NASA employee. Please see my post on the first page of the thread.

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zarg

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Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #40 on: April 29, 2012, 10:37:34 AM »
They can't be relied on as a honest source.

So you're saying the authors of the documents were being dishonest? This could only be the case if they were aware of the truth. Were they? Tell me, yes or no.

If yes, then remind us how many people you claim need to be "in the know" in The Conspiracy.

If no, then they were fooled, and you still haven't addressed the issue of where and how this happened. Let me put it to you this way: Let's say I'm Jim Williams, or Dale Boggs. I have the resources of NASA behind me, but let's say I'm clueless. So give me a step-by-step set of instructions that I can follow to fool a host of university specialists into building a dud and being satisfied that it works.
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #41 on: April 29, 2012, 08:52:44 PM »
They can't be relied on as a honest source.

So you're saying the authors of the documents were being dishonest? This could only be the case if they were aware of the truth. Were they? Tell me, yes or no.

If yes, then remind us how many people you claim need to be "in the know" in The Conspiracy.

If no, then they were fooled, and you still haven't addressed the issue of where and how this happened. Let me put it to you this way: Let's say I'm Jim Williams, or Dale Boggs. I have the resources of NASA behind me, but let's say I'm clueless. So give me a step-by-step set of instructions that I can follow to fool a host of university specialists into building a dud and being satisfied that it works.

Sorry, but what does it matter? NASA could have influenced the project in any number of ways by virtue of being the customer writing the checks.

The experiment is funded by NASA and therefore invalid.

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zarg

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Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #42 on: April 29, 2012, 09:34:23 PM »
NASA could have influenced the project in any number of ways

And you have yet to outline even one of them. Why should we trust that your hidden knowledge of NASA's abilities exists? Information wants to be free, man! Share it with us.
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

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markjo

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Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #43 on: April 29, 2012, 09:57:19 PM »
Project Leader != Research Director.

Then who, pray tell, is the research director?

A NASA employee. Please see my post on the first page of the thread.

That article that you linked to does not say that Dr. Williams directs the research at Apache Point (or any of the LLR stations).  It only says that he directs research at JPL.  There is no reason to assume that Dr. Williams is directly involved in the actual LLR data acquisition.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #44 on: April 30, 2012, 12:31:39 AM »
The experiment is funded by NASA and therefore invalid.

I quite like the idea that you think that 100% of NASA experiments or NASA-funded experiments are invalid.
1. Logically, it can't be true.
2. It proves that a lot of your statements, like this one, are not founded. (You know the drill: sources, evidence, etc)
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

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markjo

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Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2012, 05:34:04 AM »
Sorry, but what does it matter? NASA could have influenced the project in any number of ways by virtue of being the customer writing the checks.

The experiment is funded by NASA and therefore invalid.

Guilt by association is a logical fallacy and a form of ad hominem. 
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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zarg

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Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2012, 01:59:50 PM »
Guilt by association is a logical fallacy and a form of ad hominem.

And in fairness, so is this:

It proves that a lot of your statements, like this one, are not founded.

(even though the conclusion is true)
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2012, 03:33:11 PM »
NASA could have influenced the project in any number of ways

And you have yet to outline even one of them. Why should we trust that your hidden knowledge of NASA's abilities exists? Information wants to be free, man! Share it with us.

The data is being funded and controlled by NASA. You seem to want me to look at the documents on the website and tell you who was corrupted and how. What a lame request. The documents are completely untrustworthy for analysis by virtue of being controlled by NASA.

Project Leader != Research Director.

Then who, pray tell, is the research director?

A NASA employee. Please see my post on the first page of the thread.

That article that you linked to does not say that Dr. Williams directs the research at Apache Point (or any of the LLR stations).  It only says that he directs research at JPL.  There is no reason to assume that Dr. Williams is directly involved in the actual LLR data acquisition.

Yes, there is reason to believe that Jim Williams is involved in the Apache Point site and in the data acquisition. His name is listed right on the Apache Point webpage:

http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/

    "Jim Williams (JPL): LLR modeling/analysis"
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 03:51:53 PM by Tom Bishop »

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markjo

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Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2012, 04:24:23 PM »
Yes, there is reason to believe that Jim Williams is involved in the Apache Point site and in the data acquisition. His name is listed right on the Apache Point webpage:

http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/

  • "Jim Williams (JPL): LLR modeling/analysis"

LLR modeling/analysis is not the same as "director of research" or "data acquisition". 
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Tom Bishop

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Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2012, 04:28:11 PM »
Yes, there is reason to believe that Jim Williams is involved in the Apache Point site and in the data acquisition. His name is listed right on the Apache Point webpage:

http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/

  • "Jim Williams (JPL): LLR modeling/analysis"

LLR modeling/analysis is not the same as "director of research" or "data acquisition".

The news article I provided on page one refers to Williams as directing the LLR research.

    ''Finding out what's inside the Moon isn't simple,'' said Dr. James G. Williams, who directs the research.

He directs the Lunar Ranging research on behalf of JPL, which the Apache Point site and the McDonald Observatory provide data for, and both of which are funded by NASA.

Shocking how these LLR sites are often presented as independent third party proof that man has been to the moon.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 04:49:32 PM by Tom Bishop »

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markjo

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Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2012, 04:41:37 PM »
The news article I provided on page one refers to Jim Williams as directing the LLR research.

  • ''Finding out what's inside the Moon isn't simple,'' said Dr. James G. Williams, who directs the research.
He directs the Lunar Ranging research on behalf of JPL, which the Apache Point site and the McDonald Observatory provide data for, and both of which are funded by NASA.

That quote is a little vague as to exactly what research he is directing.  According to your quote from the APOLLO site, he models and analyzes the data.  Neither article that you link to says that Jim Williams works at Apache Point.  In fact, one article specifically says that he works at JPL in Pasadena.  It sounds to me like Williams directs the research on the LLR data that he modeled and analyzed in his office in Pasadena.  I see nothing in any of the sources that you linked to that suggests that he directs the data collection from Apache Point, or any other LLR observatory.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

zarg

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Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2012, 08:58:55 PM »
So you're saying the authors of the documents were being dishonest? This could only be the case if they were aware of the truth. Were they? Tell me, yes or no.

Why no answer to this?

Tom, is Eric Michelson a liar?
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

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zarg

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Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2012, 04:19:34 PM »
So you're saying the authors of the documents were being dishonest? This could only be the case if they were aware of the truth. Were they? Tell me, yes or no.

Why no answer to this?

Tom, is Eric Michelson a liar?

It's not a difficult question, Tom. Did Eric Michelson knowingly write false documentation and/or non-working code? Yes or no?
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

*

Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
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Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2012, 09:30:54 PM »
So you're saying the authors of the documents were being dishonest? This could only be the case if they were aware of the truth. Were they? Tell me, yes or no.

Why no answer to this?

Tom, is Eric Michelson a liar?

It's not a difficult question, Tom. Did Eric Michelson knowingly write false documentation and/or non-working code? Yes or no?

It doesn't matter because he was paid by NASA. As far as we know he doesn't exist at all and the picture on his bio page is a flipped, contrast adjusted picture of a German national named Hans.

Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2012, 10:17:18 PM »
If Nasa is this good in faking things, they deserve some credit for being totally awesome in creating and managing a conspiracy of this magnitude.

Now, of course that even if Nasa was faking its missions, we have tons of other space agencies in the world sending stuff into space. So, the argument that Nasa is fake therefore space missions are fake, just doesn't hold ground.

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zarg

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Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2012, 10:33:05 PM »
It doesn't matter because he was paid by NASA.

Paid to lie? Is he a conspirator? Yes or no.


As far as we know he doesn't exist at all and the picture on his bio page is a flipped, contrast adjusted picture of a German national named Hans.

How? You do understand that UCSD is an actual university and his page is hosted on their servers, correct? Are you saying the entire physics department is a NASA fabrication?
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #56 on: May 13, 2012, 05:59:00 AM »
Laser Ranging maybe faked:
But a radio wave is being bounce off the moon by amateur radio operators. To hear your own echo it takes 2.5 sec. For the 32 mile height to hold means the speed of radio waves is being slowed by a factor of 5000. Dark matter must be slowing it down.
To wit they have been bouncing radio waves off the moon since the early 1950's as seen here: 

http://www.ok2kkw.com/eme1960/eme1960eng.htm


may the rest of your life be the best of your life

Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #57 on: May 16, 2012, 10:21:47 PM »
Laser Ranging maybe faked:
But a radio wave is being bounce off the moon by amateur radio operators. To hear your own echo it takes 2.5 sec. For the 32 mile height to hold means the speed of radio waves is being slowed by a factor of 5000. Dark matter must be slowing it down.
To wit they have been bouncing radio waves off the moon since the early 1950's as seen here: 

http://www.ok2kkw.com/eme1960/eme1960eng.htm


may the rest of your life be the best of your life

Although I have no idea what the link you posted is talking about, the use of EME signals by amateur radio astronomers does seem like compelling evidence in favor of a round Earth.  EME absolutely requires a spherical Earth and a spherical moon in orbit around us.  Amateur radio astronomers can use EME signals for a variety of purposes, including ranging the moon.  The results are unambiguous. 
Also, the people on your websites are specifically framing their claims, not to learn the truth of the matter, but because they want to "debunk" Apollo Hoax claims --

Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #58 on: May 17, 2012, 04:21:18 AM »
Laser Ranging maybe faked:
But a radio wave is being bounce off the moon by amateur radio operators. To hear your own echo it takes 2.5 sec. For the 32 mile height to hold means the speed of radio waves is being slowed by a factor of 5000. Dark matter must be slowing it down.
To wit they have been bouncing radio waves off the moon since the early 1950's as seen here: 

http://www.ok2kkw.com/eme1960/eme1960eng.htm


may the rest of your life be the best of your life
Nice. Will this change the minds of the "Zetetics?" Will they actually proceed with inquiry and without the bias of their preconceptions, or will they stand dogmatically and defend their model by making up unobserved phenomena or more conspiracy theories?
It's always nice to see them claim that they really do want to know the true shape of the earth, but when a simple test that even amateurs can perform is presented to them they don't rise to the challenge. I'll bet absolutely none of them actually try this for themselves. They have proven to be lazy and dogmatic; the complete opposite of Zetetic.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 04:23:41 AM by AnonConda »

Re: Lunar Laser Ranging
« Reply #59 on: May 20, 2012, 11:54:00 PM »
I'm an Amateur Radio Operator Extra Class, Amateur Radio is a Hobby. Amateur Operators bounce radio signals off the moon all the time. Why they do it, so they can communicate with other amateurs on the flat earth. You'd be astounded  that they need at least a 100,000 watts of effective radiated power to travel  the 32 mile trip there and back.

Say you take the 144Mhz radio wave and Doppler shift it by 7500 times downward 144Mhz/7500=19.2Khz, it then takes 7500 longer for that shifted radio wave to bounce off the moon. Thus the 2.5 sec round trip,
 The wavelength of 144Mhz is about 2 meters the wavelength of 19.2Khz is about 15,000 meters. In one second at 144Mhz there is 144 million wave fronts and at 19.2 Khz there are 19,200 wave fronts, the 19.2Khz  wave fronts are spaced 15,000 meters apart.

To wit the same holds true for lasers.