How does FET explain Romer's observations?

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How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« on: April 08, 2012, 03:37:37 PM »
Ole Romer made careful observations of the timing of the movements of Jupiter's moons. He noticed variances in the timing of Io's orbit dependent on the relative positions of Earth and Jupiter in their orbits (he of course assumed a heliocentric RE system). He deduced that these variances were caused by the time it takes light to travel the distance across the Earth's orbit, thus providing one of the earliest estimates of the speed of light.

How does FET explain this?
Watermelon, Rhubarb Rhubarb, no one believes the Earth is Flat, Peas and Carrots,  walla.

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Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2012, 02:27:55 PM »
Due to lack of FE'er posting, we can conclude that it can't explain it, therefore RET wins and FET fails.
Watermelon, Rhubarb Rhubarb, no one believes the Earth is Flat, Peas and Carrots,  walla.

Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2012, 03:01:16 PM »
Due to lack of FE'er posting, we can conclude that it can't explain it, therefore RET wins and FET fails.
I believe that you've successfully shown that FET's central claim that Jupiter orbits a nearby Sun is false, based on direct sensory evidence. Of course, referencing the RADAR distancing of the Moon and Venus already did that.

For Moon reference: http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1965IAUS...21...81Y
For Venus: http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4218/ch2.htm
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Rushy

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Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2012, 04:01:43 PM »
I wouldn't trust the observations of anyone named "Ole Romer."

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Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2012, 04:51:07 PM »
I wouldn't trust the observations of anyone named "Ole Romer."

I wouldn't trust the posts of anyone with an avatar of a man with sticky-looking skin and a pig nose. That comment is just as scientifically sound as yours, btw.
Watermelon, Rhubarb Rhubarb, no one believes the Earth is Flat, Peas and Carrots,  walla.

Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2012, 04:58:52 PM »
I wouldn't trust the observations of anyone named "Ole Romer."
Sounds like a standard ad hominem to me...
Quote from: http://www.skepdic.com/adhominem.html
The ad hominem fallacy occurs when one asserts that somebody's claim is wrong because of something about the person making the claim.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Rushy

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Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2012, 12:28:35 AM »
I wouldn't trust the observations of anyone named "Ole Romer."
Sounds like a standard ad hominem to me...
Quote from: http://www.skepdic.com/adhominem.html
The ad hominem fallacy occurs when one asserts that somebody's claim is wrong because of something about the person making the claim.

I don't see how that pertains to trusting someone with such a silly name.

Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2012, 12:58:42 AM »
Ole Romer made careful observations of the timing of the movements of Jupiter's moons. He noticed variances in the timing of Io's orbit dependent on the relative positions of Earth and Jupiter in their orbits (he of course assumed a heliocentric RE system). He deduced that these variances were caused by the time it takes light to travel the distance across the Earth's orbit, thus providing one of the earliest estimates of the speed of light.

How does FET explain this?
...and how this proves earth is round?

Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2012, 01:16:08 AM »
I wouldn't trust the observations of anyone named "Ole Romer."
Sounds like a standard ad hominem to me...
Quote from: http://www.skepdic.com/adhominem.html
The ad hominem fallacy occurs when one asserts that somebody's claim is wrong because of something about the person making the claim.

I don't see how that pertains to trusting someone with such a silly name.
You assert that his claims about his observations are false based on something about the person making the claim, specifically his name.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Cat Earth Theory

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Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2012, 01:31:38 AM »
Irushwithscvs is being "funny" again, ClockTower.
If you focus on the cloud, and conceive of it just as you would a dream you are trying to interpret, with practice its meanings and memories will be revealed to you.

Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2012, 02:02:26 AM »
Irushwithscvs is being "funny" again, ClockTower.
Oh, I know.

Wouldn't "again" imply that he stopped at some point?

Even the attack is baseless: Refernce: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ole_(name)
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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sandokhan

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Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2012, 02:14:38 AM »
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=53879.msg1325247#msg1325247


An attractive gravity field, made up of gravitons, cannot explain at all the three body problem (Sun - Jupiter - Io/Ganymede/Europa), here is another demonstration:

http://theflatearthsociety.net/talk/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1183&start=15#p35542


G.B. Airy's experiment (1871) showed clearly the existence of an energy barrier between the planets/stars and the atmosphere of the Earth, we can call it the Schumann Cavity - or, the aether/ether field; the speed of light is a variable and not a constant, it varies according to the density of the aether field.


Michelson-Morley mistakes, a fascinating look at the errors comitted by A. Michelson and E. Morley in 1877:

http://spinbitz.net/anpheon.org/html/AnpheonIntro2003.htm

Dayton Miller's 1933 paper in Reviews of Modern Physics details the positive results from over 20 years of experimental research into the question of ether-drift, and remains the most definitive body of work on the subject of light-beam interferometry.

Today, however, Miller's work is hardly known or mentioned, as is the case with nearly all the experiments which produced positive results for an ether in space. Modern physics today points instead to the much earlier and less significant 1887 work of Michelson-Morley, as having "proved the ether did not exist". "

http://www.orgonelab.org/miller.htm


The superb presentation of the errors inherent in A. Michelson's approach to his experiment:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040607062702/ca.geocities.com/rayredbourne/docs/21.htm
http://web.archive.org/web/20040612113918/ca.geocities.com/rayredbourne/docs/b.htm
http://web.archive.org/web/20040611112531/ca.geocities.com/rayredbourne/docs/b2.htm
http://web.archive.org/web/20040612033435/ca.geocities.com/rayredbourne/docs/23.htm

One of the greatest works which does show the errors committed by both Michelson and Einstein:

http://users.scnet.rs/~mrp/contents.html (chapters 5-10)

The errors of Michelson and Morley analyzed from a different point of view:

http://www.aquestionoftime.com/michelson.html

A. Micheons and E. Morley UNMASKED:

http://www.reformation.org/einstein-unmasked.html

The intentional mistakes committed by H. Lorentz in deriving his transformations:

http://www.aquestionoftime.com/lorentz.html

The Dayton-Miller ether drift experiments:

http://www.orgonelab.org/miller.htm


"The effect [of ether-drift] has persisted throughout. After considering all the possible sources of error, there always remained a positive effect." Dayton Miller (1928, p.399)

"My opinion about Miller's experiments is the following. ... Should the positive result be confirmed, then the special theory of relativity and with it the general theory of relativity, in its current form, would be invalid. Experimentum summus judex. Only the equivalence of inertia and gravitation would remain, however, they would have to lead to a significantly different theory."

Albert Einstein, in a letter to Edwin E. Slosson, 8 July 1925 (from copy in Hebrew University Archive, Jerusalem.) See citations below for Silberstein 1925 and Einstein 1926.

"I believe that I have really found the relationship between gravitation and electricity, assuming that the Miller experiments are based on a fundamental error. Otherwise, the whole relativity theory collapses like a house of cards."

Albert Einstein, in a letter to Robert Millikan, June 1921 (in Clark 1971, p.328)


On the Pound-Rebka experiment:

http://theflatearthsociety.net/talk/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1020&p=34129&hilit=pound+rebka#p34120

If the speed of the light pulses in the gravitational field is VARIABLE, then the frequency shift measured by Pound and Rebka is a direct consequence of this variability and there is no gravitational time dilation.



Demolition of relativity:


http://web.archive.org/web/20070930082557/http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/relativ.htm


Many physicists who believe Einstein’s theory of relativity to be flawed have not been able to get their papers accepted for publication in most scientific journals. Eminent scientists are intimidated and warned that they may spoil their career prospects, if they openly opposed Einstein’s relativity. Distinguished British physicist Dr Louis Essen stated that physicists seem to abandon their critical faculties when considering relativity. He also remarked: ‘Students are told that the theory must be accepted although they cannot expect to understand it. They are encouraged right at the beginning of their careers to forsake science in favor of dogma.'

William Cantrell: First, the alternative theories have never been given much attention nor taught at any university. Second, the establishmentarians have invested a lifetime of learning in maintaining the status quo, and they will act to protect their investment. . . . Third, Einstein’s theory, being rather vaguely defined and self-contradictory by its own construction, allows some practitioners to display an aura of elitism and hubris in their ability to manipulate it. There is an exclusive quality to the theory – like a country club, and that is part of its allure. Fourth, to admit a fundamental mistake in such a hyped-up theory would be an embarrassment, not only to the physics community at large, but also to the memory of a man whose portrait hangs in nearly every physics department around the world.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070930082557/http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dp5/relativ.htm#rel3

When Lorentz first developed the idea of length contraction to explain the Michelson-Morley result, it struck many scientists as thoroughly arbitrary and ad hoc. Lorentz admitted that he had arrived at his equations by trial and error. It is noteworthy that no length contraction has ever been measured experimentally.

As for time dilation/clock slowing, it is known that the rate of radioactive decay of mesons slows down when they move at high speed, and the 1972 Häfele-Keating experiment found that an atomic clock transported eastward around the world lost 59 nanoseconds while a clock transported westward gained 273 nanoseconds. Obviously, such findings do not prove that time itself has dilated; it is more logical to suppose that motion affects the internal processes of particles and atoms. All physical devices used for time-keeping are subject to error when accelerated or decelerated, or moved through gravitational fields of different strengths. However, there are indications that the amount of clock retardation need not conform to Lorentz’s ad hoc equation. Relativists claim that if one of two twin brothers journeys into outer space at enormously high speed and then returns to earth, he will have aged much less than his brother – but this is no more than a speculative hypothesis.

If particles are accelerated to relativistic speeds, it becomes increasingly difficult to accelerate them further. Their exponentially increasing inertia as the speed of light is approached is usually attributed to the transformation of kinetic energy into inertial mass. But this interpretation is open to question. Relativists admit that the mass of the body concerned would appear to be constant in its own reference frame. It therefore makes more sense to regard the inertial mass of a system as purely a measure of its rest energy – and therefore as independent of velocity. Instead of invoking ‘relativistic mass increase’, the experimental results can be explained on the theory that an accelerated massbound charge increasingly resists addition of kinetic energy that approaches the magnitude of its rest mass, and radiates thermal energy to keep its mass-energy constant.


http://homepage.ntlworld.com/academ/whatswrongwithrelativity.html


EINSTEIN'S THEORY OF RELATIVITY: SCIENTIFIC THEORY OR ILLUSION?

http://users.net.yu/~mrp/contents.html


Variable speed of light, reasons why Einstein was wrong:

http://www.kevin.harkess.btinternet.co.uk/reasons_einstein_wrong/reasons_einstein_wrong.html

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markjo

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Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2012, 05:30:05 AM »
I wouldn't trust the observations of anyone named "Ole Romer."
Sounds like a standard ad hominem to me...
Quote from: http://www.skepdic.com/adhominem.html
The ad hominem fallacy occurs when one asserts that somebody's claim is wrong because of something about the person making the claim.

I don't see how that pertains to trusting someone with such a silly name.


If the only reason that you don't trust someone's claim is because they have a silly name, then it is a fallacy.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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The Knowledge

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Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2012, 07:05:14 AM »
tl;dr

Levee, unless you have comments to make pertaining to the observations of Romer, please refrain from filling my thread with crap. Thankyou.
Watermelon, Rhubarb Rhubarb, no one believes the Earth is Flat, Peas and Carrots,  walla.

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The Knowledge

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Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2012, 12:22:14 PM »
I think Tausami should address this, since he claims all my other arguments against FET have been crushed.  8)
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Tausami

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Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2012, 12:25:54 PM »
i honestly fail to see the relevancy. As far as I know, FET does not deny that light speed exists. Are you saying that it proves RET's distance for Jupiter?

Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2012, 12:41:31 PM »
i honestly fail to see the relevancy. As far as I know, FET does not deny that light speed exists. Are you saying that it proves RET's distance for Jupiter?
The measured velocity of light in a vacuum and the variation in the timing of these eclipses, show that the FET model of the planets and the Sun is just plain wrong. Yes, it shows the actual distance for Jupiter which matches the RET model.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Tausami

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Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2012, 12:48:12 PM »
i honestly fail to see the relevancy. As far as I know, FET does not deny that light speed exists. Are you saying that it proves RET's distance for Jupiter?
The measured velocity of light in a vacuum and the variation in the timing of these eclipses, show that the FET model of the planets and the Sun is just plain wrong. Yes, it shows the actual distance for Jupiter which matches the RET model.

Alright, so Jupiter is evidently that far away and probably does not float on the whirlpool. Where's the problem?

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Cat Earth Theory

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Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2012, 12:56:09 PM »
Wonderful, I hope this means we never hear about aetheric whirpools again.
If you focus on the cloud, and conceive of it just as you would a dream you are trying to interpret, with practice its meanings and memories will be revealed to you.

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Tausami

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Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2012, 12:58:40 PM »
Wonderful, I hope this means we never hear about aetheric whirpools again.

Doesn't mean nothing else does. I never claimed the planets are on it, just the Sun and Moon.

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Cat Earth Theory

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Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2012, 01:09:17 PM »
So what, then, is making Jupiter move around?
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Tausami

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Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2012, 01:16:15 PM »
I'll get back to you on that, since apparently you'd prefer that I prove my theories are plausible before I hypothesize them.

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Cat Earth Theory

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Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2012, 01:17:54 PM »
I wouldn't even call them theories because that would imply they were based on actual observations.
If you focus on the cloud, and conceive of it just as you would a dream you are trying to interpret, with practice its meanings and memories will be revealed to you.

Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2012, 01:24:40 PM »
i honestly fail to see the relevancy. As far as I know, FET does not deny that light speed exists. Are you saying that it proves RET's distance for Jupiter?
The measured velocity of light in a vacuum and the variation in the timing of these eclipses, show that the FET model of the planets and the Sun is just plain wrong. Yes, it shows the actual distance for Jupiter which matches the RET model.

Alright, so Jupiter is evidently that far away and probably does not float on the whirlpool. Where's the problem?
Well, for starters right there: Jupiter is far away. Current FET is wrong. Now FEers need to revise their theories and deal with the resulting fallen house of cards.

Here's some problems that you'll face in fixing this.

Once Jupiter's distance is know and predicted by RET, you can't fit its orbit above the FE. It really sucks to be an FEer on this one.

Next with observed parallax of Jupiter, you know the distance to the Sun is about 100 million miles.

Observing that Jupiter goes retrograde about once a year when it's closest to the Earth--just as RET predicts--pretty much destroys the magic epicycle solution.

Using the same eclipse-monitoring technique, you can easily obtain the distance to Mars, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune. These measurements will show the RET-predicted variability over the Earth-based year. Explaining this in the new FET will be next to impossible.

Without two perspectives toward the Sun and away, the revised FET will not be able to explain how we see the planets where and when we do. The epicycles-stupid-idea is bad enough with a spherical Earth, it's worse in the old FET. But it's impossible in the revised FET.

Using the variation based on what latitude you are measuring the eclipses , you can easily show that the distance between longitudes narrow both north and south.

So we know that the Earth is a globe. FET dies.

Otherwise, there's no problem.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2012, 02:32:12 PM »
i honestly fail to see the relevancy. As far as I know, FET does not deny that light speed exists. Are you saying that it proves RET's distance for Jupiter?
The measured velocity of light in a vacuum and the variation in the timing of these eclipses, show that the FET model of the planets and the Sun is just plain wrong. Yes, it shows the actual distance for Jupiter which matches the RET model.

Alright, so Jupiter is evidently that far away and probably does not float on the whirlpool. Where's the problem?
Well, for starters right there: Jupiter is far away. Current FET is wrong. Now FEers need to revise their theories and deal with the resulting fallen house of cards.

Here's some problems that you'll face in fixing this.

Once Jupiter's distance is know and predicted by RET, you can't fit its orbit above the FE. It really sucks to be an FEer on this one.

Next with observed parallax of Jupiter, you know the distance to the Sun is about 100 million miles.

Observing that Jupiter goes retrograde about once a year when it's closest to the Earth--just as RET predicts--pretty much destroys the magic epicycle solution.

Using the same eclipse-monitoring technique, you can easily obtain the distance to Mars, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune. These measurements will show the RET-predicted variability over the Earth-based year. Explaining this in the new FET will be next to impossible.

Without two perspectives toward the Sun and away, the revised FET will not be able to explain how we see the planets where and when we do. The epicycles-stupid-idea is bad enough with a spherical Earth, it's worse in the old FET. But it's impossible in the revised FET.

Using the variation based on what latitude you are measuring the eclipses , you can easily show that the distance between longitudes narrow both north and south.

So we know that the Earth is a globe. FET dies.

Otherwise, there's no problem.

The increase in distance also makes retrograde motion extremely difficult, because tom's model makes it so that the epicyles are done around the sun's motion.  But if you stretch out the distance of the planet, yet leave the sun directly overhead, suddenly the effect becomes much less noticeable.

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sandokhan

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Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2012, 12:35:32 AM »
tl;dr

Levee, unless you have comments to make pertaining to the observations of Romer, please refrain from filling my thread with crap. Thankyou.

carnalknowledge, the only crap to be found is inside your messages...you posted here a thread about Romer's observations: speed of light, orbit of Jupiter...Romer assumed of course that the theory of relativity is correct, and thus did base his observations on the fallacy that the speed of light is a constant...my message proved that this notion is completely wrong...the speed of light is a variable...I answered exactly to the point, no crap whatsoever...

And you are forgetting that both Kepler's first law and the fact that the geometrical shape of the movement of the solar system towards the star Vega must a be a helix, cannot be true...


A solar system in motion with respect to the Vega star would be wholly incompatible with Kepler's first law, since, within that frame of reference, this motion (the circular helices on a right cylinder) must change the eccentricities of some of the planetary orbits to an extent which far exceeds the observed values.





« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 10:25:30 AM by levee »

Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2012, 12:53:59 AM »
tl;dr

Levee, unless you have comments to make pertaining to the observations of Romer, please refrain from filling my thread with crap. Thankyou.

carnalknowledge, the only crap to be found is inside your head...you posted here a thread about Romer's observations: speed of light, orbit of Jupiter...Romer assumed of course that the theory of relativity is correct, and thus did base his observations on the fallacy that the speed of light is a constant...my message proved that this notion is completely wrong...the speed of light is a variable...I answered exactly to the point, no crap whatsoever...
Uh... no. and I really mean NO.

Romer predates SR by 250 years; he did not assume it.

No, Romer did not base his observations the the Jupiter eclipses on the assumption that the speed of light is constant.

Not one of your woo-woo arguments prove that the speed of light is variable. Heck, most of what you posted didn't even have a thesis statement. None had a cogent line of reasoning.

If you want to argue that the speed of light is variable, then please start a thread on that topic. Then provide clear evidence to support your outlandish claim. I'll respond there to your machinations.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Aeternalis

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Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2012, 01:47:12 AM »
What are the sizes of Jupiter and the moon in FET anyway, and what do they even orbit? I cannot imagine how it is physically possible for something as big as Jupiter to orbit a sphere 32 miles in diameter or a metallic disc.


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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2012, 02:20:13 AM »
What are the sizes of Jupiter and the moon in FET anyway, and what do they even orbit? I cannot imagine how it is physically possible for something as big as Jupiter to orbit a sphere 32 miles in diameter or a metallic disc.

I don't know how big it is, but it orbits the sun and it does so within the diameter of the visible portion of the earth, so its not very large at all.

Re: How does FET explain Romer's observations?
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2012, 03:03:44 AM »
What are the sizes of Jupiter and the moon in FET anyway, and what do they even orbit? I cannot imagine how it is physically possible for something as big as Jupiter to orbit a sphere 32 miles in diameter or a metallic disc.
By observation Jupiter has an angular diameter of 29.800″ – 50.115″ Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_diameter

Since angular diameter is proportional to distance to the observed object and its absolute diameter, we know that in standard FET Jupiter's distance is supposedly 3,000 miles when overhead, but definitely less than 3,100. Reference: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=11211.0.

If we assume that Jupiter's smallest presentation of 29.800" is when it's at 3,100 miles above the FE (when it's overhead), then we have that Jupiter is about 26 miles in diameter.



The Moon would be the same size as the Sun since it's at the same height and angular diameter.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards