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Money is the most important thing in life

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #120 on: January 21, 2013, 01:38:03 PM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on January 21, 2013, 12:17:26 PM
Quote from: OrbisNonSufficit on January 21, 2013, 09:40:53 AM
time is more important than money, without time you can't make money.  And if you have money but no time, then money is useless.

Money can buy time. A good manager delegates tasks to others so that he has more time for himself.

That is not money buying time, that is money buyng labor.  Money can buy extensions, it can buy health, it can buy food, all of which can sometimes help you free up more time for what you want to do, but in the end, money cannot stop time, nor can it speed it up, and therefore money cannot truely buy time.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #121 on: January 21, 2013, 04:37:26 PM »
Quote from: Saddam Hussein on January 21, 2013, 12:22:26 PM
Kim Kardashian became rich and famous because of a sex tape.  She had no career prior to that.

On biography.com's bio of Kim Kardashian I see a number of accomplishments.

Quote from: Thork on January 21, 2013, 12:26:49 PM
You can't eat money, Tom.

And after a system collapse, money becomes worthless and people go back to bartering. Money is not vital and is only worth what others say its worth.

People can live without money and did for millions of years. Food, air, water. These are the most important things in life.

People did not live without money for "millions of years." The idea that societies ever operated on a Barter System is a myth. There is no evidence that these societies ever existed. The idea comes from Adam Smith's 1776 Wealth of Nations.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 04:45:43 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Thork

Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #122 on: January 21, 2013, 04:39:51 PM »
Did cavemen have money, Tom? Or did they just go and get their food/water/air?
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #123 on: January 21, 2013, 04:41:44 PM »
Tom keeps up with the Kardashians.
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Quote from: Thork on November 27, 2012, 12:25:43 PM
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.
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Thork

Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #124 on: January 21, 2013, 05:12:18 PM »
He's also an avid fan of Honey Boo Boo Child but we should make an effort to stay on topic.
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #125 on: January 21, 2013, 05:20:53 PM »
There's nowhere for the topic to go. Everyone says, nuh-uh Tom money isn't the most important thing, and then Tom says yes-huh, you couldn't have those things you think are important without money. This thread will continue on forever going around in circles.
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Quote from: Thork on November 27, 2012, 12:25:43 PM
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.
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garygreen

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Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #126 on: January 21, 2013, 05:29:28 PM »
I don't even get what the point of this thread is.  Obviously, to the extent that money is the medium through which we acquire the things we need/want, money is very important for acquiring the things we need/want.  This entire thread is one giant tautology. 
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Quote from: Tom Bishop on July 27, 2012, 10:59:03 AM
Also, the people on your websites are specifically framing their claims, not to learn the truth of the matter, but because they want to "debunk" Apollo Hoax claims --
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #127 on: January 21, 2013, 05:46:09 PM »
Quote from: Thork on January 21, 2013, 04:39:51 PM
Did cavemen have money, Tom? Or did they just go and get their food/water/air?

Yes, very early humans had money. The exchange of debt is a natural part animal nature. Monkeys, wolves, cats, and all other higher order creatures exchange debt. For example, apes will often use favors as debts - I scratch your back, you scratch mine. They exchanged favors through grooming, sharing of food, sex, protection, etc. If one ape is doing lots of favors for you, it's expected that you return the favors lest they stop. An ape will remember that Ape1 has done lots of favors for him, that Ape2 has done a few favors for him, and Ape3 has done no favors for him at all.

As primates evolved into man this form of thought currency simply transitioned into a physical representation of debt owed for better accuracy. We know that Ancient Native Americans used sticks with marks in them to keep track of debts. If you were exchanging favors with someone, you would each keep sticks with both your names on it and make identical ticks in the wood when favors were exchanged to help keep track of who owed what. This form of debt currency was later represented by feathers, sea shells, shiny stones, and finally coins and paper money -- all representing debts owed.

Animals exchanged money long before man came along. But since they didn't have tools to create physical representations of debt, they had to keep track of their debts in their own heads, enforced by implicit social contract.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2013, 11:58:25 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Thork

Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #128 on: January 22, 2013, 03:41:39 AM »
Surely doing favours for each other is bartering, Tom? Not using money.

Quote from: Tom Bishop on January 21, 2013, 05:46:09 PM
Animals exchanged money long before man came along.

Quote from: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/money
monˇey  (mn)
n. pl. monˇeys or monˇies
1. A medium that can be exchanged for goods and services and is used as a measure of their values on the market, including among its forms a commodity such as gold, an officially issued coin or note, or a deposit in a checking account or other readily liquefiable account.

Animals do not exchange a medium. If they are exchanging favours such as back scratching this is co-operating, not a financial system. I don't even believe they keep track as animals don't have the same sense of future as humans. As Cesar Millan always says "a dog lives in the now. Tsssst!". However even if they do keep track, its still bartering.

I think we have found something more important than money. Things that are vital. It is proved by our most primitive of cousins and our ancestors, that money is not essential for life. Food/air/water are.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 03:43:34 AM by Thork »
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #129 on: January 22, 2013, 06:32:21 AM »
It's not bartering because favors are a portable medium of exchange of goods and services. If you are giving ape your extra food all the time he is obligated to return the favor in some way, perhaps by grooming you and jumping in to protect you when other apes push you around. He doesn't necessarily have to give you food.

Quote from: http://financial-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Money
money
A generally accepted medium for the exchange of goods and services, for measuring value, or for making payments.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 06:34:21 AM by Tom Bishop »
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Thork

Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #130 on: January 22, 2013, 06:38:10 AM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on January 22, 2013, 06:32:21 AM
It's not bartering because favors are a portable medium of exchange of goods and services. If you are giving ape your extra food all the time he is obligated to return the favor in some way, perhaps by grooming you and jumping in to protect you when other apes push you around. He doesn't necessarily have to give you food.

Quote from: http://financial-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Money
money
A generally accepted medium for the exchange of goods and services, for measuring value, or for making payments.
Indeed. Owing a favour is a system of barter. It is not a medium of exchange. One ape does not go to another ape and say "He owes me a back scratch, but I really want one of those juicy berries you have. Can I have a berry and he owes you a back scratch instead of me?" Money allows trade via multiple parties. Favours/bartering only allow for a two-way transaction. It is slower and more cumbersome, but it is workable. And so whilst money is helpful, its not essential. Not in the same way food/air/water are essential.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #131 on: January 22, 2013, 06:54:44 AM »
Quote from: Thork on January 22, 2013, 06:38:10 AM
Quote from: Tom Bishop on January 22, 2013, 06:32:21 AM
It's not bartering because favors are a portable medium of exchange of goods and services. If you are giving ape your extra food all the time he is obligated to return the favor in some way, perhaps by grooming you and jumping in to protect you when other apes push you around. He doesn't necessarily have to give you food.

Quote from: http://financial-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Money
money
A generally accepted medium for the exchange of goods and services, for measuring value, or for making payments.
Indeed. Owing a favour is a system of barter. It is not a medium of exchange. One ape does not go to another ape and say "He owes me a back scratch, but I really want one of those juicy berries you have. Can I have a berry and he owes you a back scratch instead of me?" Money allows trade via multiple parties. Favours/bartering only allow for a two-way transaction. It is slower and more cumbersome, but it is workable. And so whilst money is helpful, its not essential. Not in the same way food/air/water are essential.

Bartering is a direct exchange of goods and services at time of exchange. Currency is a medium of exchange for services later rendered. It doesn't matter if a currency can only be used between two people. If a store gives you a special company coin which is only redeemable at that store, it is still currency and still represents a medium of exchange.

An artist squire might exchange drawings with his master for meals, handing over sketches when he receives his meal. That's bartering. But if the artist is out of drawings and says "I owe you one" when he receives a meal he has just created the mental equivalent of a bank note for a favor later to be repaid. This is a medium of agreed upon currency between the artist and his master. The artist squire will later repay the debt with something of perceived equal value, the money only existing in their heads.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 06:57:31 AM by Tom Bishop »
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Thork

Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #132 on: January 22, 2013, 07:02:32 AM »
No, if a store give you a special coin that is not money. It is a voucher. Money must be able to be traded between more than 2 people. If McDonalds give me a voucher and I want to spend it at KFC but can't, its not money. Also, money doesn't have an expiry date. Vouchers do.

As for the artist analogy, unless the squire can trade the drawings and future drawings himself for any other good with other people, then its not money. Goods and services are not money, Tom.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #133 on: January 22, 2013, 07:24:01 AM »
When the artist says that he doesn't have any drawings on him and gives an IOU to his master, the medium of exchange is the IOU, not drawings.

IOU's are portable between three or more people. You are unimaginative. It happens all the time. In the squire example, if a nobleman storms into the squire's master's home when the master is away, demanding that the master owes him something for killing his dog, the indebted squire might resolve the issue by offering something of his own to repay his master's debt. When the mater returns the squire tells him what happened and his debt is cleared. In this way three people are exchanging debt.

If Ape1 is indebted to Ape2, when he sees Ape2's mate is attacked he might step in to protect Ape2's mate, and assuming everyone saw what happened, this then transfers the debt to Ape2's mate.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 07:36:18 AM by Tom Bishop »
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Thork

Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #134 on: January 22, 2013, 07:34:34 AM »
Goods and services are NOT money.

An IOU between two people is not money. If the issuer agrees to honour that IOU to anyone holding it - IE a central bank it becomes a currency, not money. If someone comes up to you and says "Bob, promised Mary, who promised John, who promised Jane and Marsha, who promised Phil who promised me a new pair of garden shears. Can I take this apple pie and when all of these people complete the transaction the shears will be yours, not mine?"
Would you part with your apple pie? You are dealing in promises. Not money. This is the fundamental difference between currency and money. Currency is only worth what the central bank says its worth and will honour "I promise to pay the bearer on demand ..." etc.

As you have illustrated, it is quite possible to get along without money by swapping promises and IOUs. This is because money is not the most important thing in life.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #135 on: January 22, 2013, 07:43:10 AM »
Quote from: Thork on January 22, 2013, 07:34:34 AM
Goods and services are NOT money.

An IOU between two people is not money. If the issuer agrees to honour that IOU to anyone holding it - IE a central bank it becomes a currency, not money. If someone comes up to you and says "Bob, promised Mary, who promised John, who promised Jane and Marsha, who promised Phil who promised me a new pair of garden shears. Can I take this apple pie and when all of these people complete the transaction the shears will be yours, not mine?"
Would you part with your apple pie? You are dealing in promises. Not money. This is the fundamental difference between currency and money. Currency is only worth what the central bank says its worth and will honour "I promise to pay the bearer on demand ..." etc.

As you have illustrated, it is quite possible to get along without money by swapping promises and IOUs. This is because money is not the most important thing in life.

In my above examples favors to repay debts are the portable medium of exchange. The difference between modern money and favors owed is simply that someone along the line was clever enough to give a receipt for the debt that they owe for better accuracy. For all intents an imaginary IOU is the same as a physical promissory note.

I don't know why you think that central banks are necessary for money to exist. For a long time central banks did not exist and individual banks printed out their own money. Anyone could start a bank and start issuing out their own brand of currency. Anyone had the right to accept or reject the notes. In the times before central banks, was that money not really money?

Indeed, it's still legal to issue your own currency. Just look at Bit Coins, Chuckee Cheese tickets, Calgary Dollars, eGold, and World of Warcraft points. These are all mediums of exchange for goods and services.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 10:13:32 AM by Tom Bishop »
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Thork

Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #136 on: January 22, 2013, 08:00:22 AM »
No, central banks are necessary for currency to exist. Currency and money are not the same thing.

Are you trying to tell me that Bit Coins and World of Warcraft points are the most important things in life?


I think we are going to have to respectfully disagree that favours = money. Goods and services are not money. They are not a MEDIUM of exchange. They are a direct exchange, ie bartering. A system that does indeed work but that proves we can function without money. Thereby ensuring it can't be the most important thing in life.

I would also extrapolate that other people must therefore be more important than money, because without them, your money is just a shiny thing you can't eat.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 08:03:40 AM by Thork »
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markjo

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Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #137 on: January 22, 2013, 09:03:25 AM »
http://www.uhuh.com/unreal/moncur.htm
Quote
Much confusion exits about money and currency. (Note the color assigments.) As you have no doubt figured out, the IBLs (International Banklords) like it that way because it blows out a natural smoke screen that plays right in to their greedy pockets. Farmers Credit Tickets was left as simple as possible to make it interesting for you. Its purpose was to get the basic idea of money across to you. Here, now, is an explanation of the difference between money and currency.

Two concepts exist that must be understood. If you don’t grasp these two concepts, the banklords will continue to enslave you by making you work for them for free. Not too good a thought, is it? So, let’s fix it. Okay? Good. The two concepts are

1. Money is unreal, meaning imaginary, intangible.

2. Currency is NOT money, but merely represents money.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #138 on: January 22, 2013, 10:23:10 AM »
Quote from: Thork on January 22, 2013, 08:00:22 AM
I think we are going to have to respectfully disagree that favours = money.

If I owe you a favor, we can keep that promise in our memories or write a promissory note for it, correct?

Well, modern banknotes are just promissory notes:

Quote from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banknote
A banknote (often known as a bill, paper money or simply a note) is a type of negotiable instrument known as a promissory note, made by a bank, payable to the bearer on demand.

It is a receipt which represents a debt owed, no different than an IOU. It's a physical representation of a debt. Therefore, we can see that promises are money.
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Thork

Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #139 on: January 22, 2013, 10:30:58 AM »
No. Promises are currency. Not money. And even then they are only currency if everyone agrees to their value.


However, it only becomes a currency once you write it down or add it onto a computer system. Its not a currency if its in your head. Then it is a favour. We seem to be going around in circles.

I should also like to add that you omitted to comment on my observation that money/currency/favours are all useless without other people to honour them, and by extrapolation, other people must be more important than money. Ergo money cannot be the most important thing in life.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #140 on: January 22, 2013, 06:38:44 PM »
Promises fit the definition of money. Not sure what you're on about.

Quote from: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/money
monˇey   [muhn-ee]  Show IPA noun, plural monˇeys, monˇies, adjective
noun
1. any circulating medium of exchange, including coins, paper money,  and demand deposits.
2. paper money.
3. gold, silver, or other metal in pieces of convenient form stamped by public authority and issued as a medium of exchange and measure of value.
4. any article or substance used as a medium of exchange, measure of wealth, or means of payment, as checks on demand deposit or cowrie.
5. a particular form or denomination of currency.

Quote from: Thork on January 22, 2013, 10:30:58 AM
However, it only becomes a currency once you write it down or add it onto a computer system. Its not a currency if its in your head. Then it is a favour. We seem to be going around in circles.

Why is it only currency if you write it down?

If you owe me $100, do you only owe me $100 if it's written down?  ???

Quote
I should also like to add that you omitted to comment on my observation that money/currency/favours are all useless without other people to honour them, and by extrapolation, other people must be more important than money. Ergo money cannot be the most important thing in life.

Air/water/DNA/the presence of other people are not the most important things in life because they are part of your surroundings and come free of cost. They are already there in your life and do not need to be earned. The things you earn are more important because they require skill, effort, and sacrifice to acquire. They have a direct impact on the standard of living for you and your family.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 07:12:15 PM by Tom Bishop »
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hoppy

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Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #141 on: January 22, 2013, 06:52:34 PM »
Thork has turned against Bishop.
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kevinagain

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Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #142 on: January 22, 2013, 07:21:29 PM »
that's because money is the root of all evil.
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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #143 on: January 22, 2013, 08:39:44 PM »
Tom bishop gets on a plane to hawaii.  When he gets there, he stays in his hotel room, sends his special somone out of the room, and just chills with his moneyz.

When I get home, i burn my money and sit next to the warm fire naked with my gf, and feel extrememly happy.
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Beorn

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Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #144 on: January 22, 2013, 10:58:40 PM »
Quote from: OrbisNonSufficit on January 22, 2013, 08:39:44 PM
Tom bishop gets on a plane to hawaii.  When he gets there, he stays in his hotel room, sends his special somone out of the room, and just chills with his moneyz.

When I get home, i burn my money and sit next to the warm fire naked with my gf, and feel extrememly happy.

You wouldn't have a gf without money.
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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #145 on: January 22, 2013, 11:30:46 PM »
Quote from: Beorn on January 22, 2013, 10:58:40 PM
Quote from: OrbisNonSufficit on January 22, 2013, 08:39:44 PM
Tom bishop gets on a plane to hawaii.  When he gets there, he stays in his hotel room, sends his special somone out of the room, and just chills with his moneyz.

When I get home, i burn my money and sit next to the warm fire naked with my gf, and feel extrememly happy.

You wouldn't have a gf without money.

After I got my gf, I burned my money, and we live off of hers.
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markjo

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Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #146 on: January 23, 2013, 05:32:29 AM »
Quote from: kevinagain on January 22, 2013, 07:21:29 PM
that's because money is the root of all evil.

No.  "For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows." 1 Timothy 6:10

Money, in and of itself, is a tool of convenience, nothing else.  Once you start believing that it is the most important thing in life is when money becomes a tool of evil.
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Rushy

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Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #147 on: January 23, 2013, 05:36:27 AM »
Life is the most important thing in money.
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illmunati

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Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #148 on: January 23, 2013, 06:14:15 AM »
life is the most important thing in life
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Particle Person

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Re: Money is the most important thing in life
« Reply #149 on: January 23, 2013, 08:12:53 AM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on January 22, 2013, 06:38:44 PM
Air/water/DNA/the presence of other people are not the most important things in life because they are part of your surroundings and come free of cost. They are already there in your life and do not need to be earned. The things you earn are more important because they require skill, effort, and sacrifice to acquire. They have a direct impact on the standard of living for you and your family.

Difficulty to acquire isn't needed for something to be important. Does the presence of oxygen not impact your standard of living? It is possible, although difficult, to live entirely without money. The same cannot be said for things like water and food.
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