Challenge to theists

I first saw this challenge put by NonStampCollector on YT, and haven't seen any good responses in the comments.

But the challenge goes as such: Provide any proof or evidence that it was your personal God that created the universe.

And the easier version: Provide any proof or evidence that only one God created the universe.

Rules:
No circular arguments
Faith is not evidence
Personal experience is not evidence
Don't try to change the subject

Thanks.

Time.

Who said my God created the Universe?

Time.

You're hilarious.

Who said my God created the Universe?

The 4th rule...

If this challenge doesn't apply to you, don't post.

Quote from: Irushwithscvs on March 30, 2012, 01:29:46 PM

Time.

You're hilarious.

Quote from: Lorddave on March 30, 2012, 01:33:26 PM

Who said my God created the Universe?

The 4th rule...

If this challenge doesn't apply to you, don't post.

Uuuuhhhh...

Don't try to change the subject

That's the 4th rule.  And I'm not changing the subject, I'm asking a question about the subject.
Clearly you aren't paying attention to your own rules.

Quote from: Irushwithscvs on March 30, 2012, 01:29:46 PM

Time.

You're hilarious.

Ah, well do get back to me when you can think of a real counter.

@Lorddave, The challenge was really clear, and that question indicates that it doesn't apply to you. And if this challenge does not apply to you, that question was pointless, and this discussion could have been avoided if you just wouldn't have posted that. So you did change the subject because here we are, 4th post that has been made about that question.

@Lorddave, The challenge was really clear, and that question indicates that it doesn't apply to you. And if this challenge does not apply to you, that question was pointless, and this discussion could have been avoided if you just wouldn't have posted that. So you did change the subject because here we are, 4th post that has been made about that question.

Well I'm ATheist so it appeared to apply to me.
Secondly, I have a personal God. 
Third, my personal god didn't create the universe.

Finally:
If that was the 4th post about this question, that is more than the posts about the initial subject, which means that this is the current subject.

There aren't many (if any) theists here that would actively try to argue this. Besides, people are never so easily swayed.

You should stick to disproving the Christian/Islamic/Judaic God. That's much easier than ruling out all Gods.

I first saw this challenge put by NonStampCollector on YT, and haven't seen any good responses in the comments.

But the challenge goes as such: Provide any proof or evidence that it was your personal God that created the universe.

And the easier version: Provide any proof or evidence that only one God created the universe.

Rules:
No circular arguments
Faith is not evidence
Personal experience is not evidence
Don't try to change the subject

Thanks.

Do you accept that humans operate as organic machines?

>faith
>proof

I don't even what

Personal experience is not evidence

I doubt anyone was here for the creation of the universe.

Better yet, give me a list of things you would accept.

God coming down and saying, "I created the universe," or drawing said message in the Sahara desert would be a start. Didn't he used to do that stuff?

God coming down and saying, "I created the universe," or drawing said message in the Sahara desert would be a start. Didn't he used to do that stuff?

That would be a personal experience and wouldn't count according to the rules posted.

Is it still a personal experience when more than one person has it without contact with other persons who have similar beliefs?

Personal experiences like you saying that God came to you in a dream, or you heard him speaking to you is not evidence, because every single religion claims that they have had this kind of experiences.

But if the stars would be moved to say that "I'm God, and I'm real' that would be evidence, because multiple people can see it with 100% certainty in a sober state of mind, and can be documented.

Well, if you look at it most religions have very similar ideas and legends. Perhaps all these tales are talking about the same God(s), and just diverged as time went on?

If you look at the Background Radiation of the Universe, you'll find a pattern that can't be naturally forming.

That's proof of God.  Especially once you decode it.

Also, this is what happens:

Well, if you look at it most religions have very similar ideas and legends. Perhaps all these tales are talking about the same God(s), and just diverged as time went on?

Doubtful.

If we look at historical religions, many were animistic, i.e. everything had a supernatural spirit.  The well-known Roman gods were part of the state-level public religion.  Everyday life, though, was ruled by household spirits, who people had to give offerings to.  Greek gods changed drastically from region to region.  Both the Greek and Romans had spirits that ruled over certain bodies of water, forests, hills, etc.

I think it's far more likely that gods start from some urge of ours to anthropomorphize nature and the forces that control our lives.  To give the big, mysterious world a human personality.

I've heard that many of the fables in the old testament were stolen or borrowed from several different earlier pagan religions.  I don't have a source for this so take it how you like.  It is speculated that Yahweh used to have a wife though.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah#In_Israel_and_Judah

Personal experiences like you saying that God came to you in a dream, or you heard him speaking to you is not evidence, because every single religion claims that they have had this kind of experiences.

But if the stars would be moved to say that "I'm God, and I'm real' that would be evidence, because multiple people can see it with 100% certainty in a sober state of mind, and can be documented.

How many people? 

And just because God spells out the stars to read that He is real, doesn't necessarily mean he created the universe does it?   I can't figure out what evidence you are looking for.  That He is real or that he created the universe?

Say any theistic religion that's God didn't create the universe. Then I'll look into it.

A God has to be a eternal, all powerful creator, otherwise there wouldn't be a point to call him God. And in order for Him to be eternal, He would have to be immaterial, and would have to have infinite energy.
That kind of a being cannot be a product of evolution, or a Big Bang, so in that sense God has to have created the universe.

If you look at the Background Radiation of the Universe, you'll find a pattern that can't be naturally forming.

That's proof of God.  Especially once you decode it.

I assume your talking about Cosmic background radiation.
That's proof of the Big bang. The beginning of the natural order, aka the opposite of God.

Quote from: Lorddave on March 31, 2012, 05:49:02 AM

If you look at the Background Radiation of the Universe, you'll find a pattern that can't be naturally forming.

That's proof of God.  Especially once you decode it.

I assume your talking about Cosmic background radiation.
That's proof of the Big bang. The beginning of the natural order, aka the opposite of God.

False.
God IS order.  He created natural order.  What do you think that there was a poof and suddenly the entire space-time continuum with all the matter in it's current state suddenly appeared?  No, that's not how it happened.

Also:
The Cosmic Background Radiation has a patterned message in it that, once you decode, will prove that God exists. 

Quote from: The1 on March 31, 2012, 09:41:03 AM

Quote from: Lorddave on March 31, 2012, 05:49:02 AM

If you look at the Background Radiation of the Universe, you'll find a pattern that can't be naturally forming.

That's proof of God.  Especially once you decode it.

I assume your talking about Cosmic background radiation.
That's proof of the Big bang. The beginning of the natural order, aka the opposite of God.

False.
God IS order.  He created natural order.  What do you think that there was a poof and suddenly the entire space-time continuum with all the matter in it's current state suddenly appeared?  No, that's not how it happened.

Also:
The Cosmic Background Radiation has a patterned message in it that, once you decode, will prove that God exists. 

It's hard to talk about the physics that allow the big bang to happen here, because you don't believe in them.
But try to watch this video with an open mind:

What are you basing this decoding hypothesis on btw?



And to all of the people asking "What kind of evidence are you looking for?" That's not my business. It's the theists business, and by making this thread I'm trying to prove the there are no good reasons to believe in a God.

>no one knows what God is like
>therefore no one knows if he follows the rules of human logic
>ask people to use logic to show that something that cannot be explained by logic created the universe

This challenge is dumb to begin with

>no one knows what God is like
>therefore no one knows if he follows the rules of human logic
>ask people to use logic to show that something that cannot be explained by logic exists

This challenge is dumb to begin with

According to this you can't prove that God exists, which means my thread has been successful in it's only goal. (Showing that there are no good reasons to believe in a God)

I just made this thread for the people here that are so certain that God exists, that they have put it into their signature. Sadly non of those people have posted in this...

Quote from: Blanko on March 31, 2012, 10:09:43 AM

>no one knows what God is like
>therefore no one knows if he follows the rules of human logic
>ask people to use logic to show that something that cannot be explained by logic exists

This challenge is dumb to begin with

According to this you can't prove that God exists, which means my thread has been successful in it's only goal. (Showing that there are no good reasons to believe in a God)

I just made this thread for the people here that are so certain that God exists, that they have put it into their signature. Sadly non of those people have posted in this...

You can't prove that something exists that by definition cannot be proven to exist? Wow, what a fucking shocker. Got any more tautologies you would like to share?

There's this thing called "faith", you may have heard of it.

I first saw this challenge put by NonStampCollector on YT, and haven't seen any good responses in the comments.

But the challenge goes as such: Provide any proof or evidence that it was your personal God that created the universe.

And the easier version: Provide any proof or evidence that only one God created the universe.

Rules:
No circular arguments
Faith is not evidence
Personal experience is not evidence
Don't try to change the subject

Thanks.

I believe in the existence of a God, but I feel I can't answer your questions because the first one is inapplicable to me and I don't see where the second one is in any way relevant to whether or not God exists.  I certainly think there's reason to believe that there's only one God, I just don't see any way to prove it.  At any rate, both questions are entirely irrelevant to what you recently stated as your ultimate concern:

...by making this thread I'm trying to prove the there are no good reasons to believe in a God.

Do you really feel something needs to be proved, in order for there to be good reason to believe in it?  I ask this because you seem to have a fairly shaky understanding of the Big Bang:

That's proof of the Big bang. The beginning of the natural order, aka the opposite of God.

Any cosmologist worth his salt will tell you that the Big Bang has not been proven, it's simply the best explanation we have at the time.  Your statement here also troubled me in this regard:

It's hard to talk about the physics that allow the big bang to happen here, because you don't believe in them.

Again, you don't seem to know what you're talking about.  It's more than hard to talk about the physics that allowed the Big Bang to happen here, it's hard to talk about it anywhere, because it is still not the least bit understood.  There are theories of course, but so far no one has come up with anything that's the least bit testable, and therefore provable.  Honestly I can't help but feel that your little redirection by saying "it's hard to talk about the physics that allow the big bang to happen" and linking to a Youtube video suggests that you are trying to avoid the issue because you don't understand it yourself (a point that is only driven home by what little you have said about it).

So based on your premise that there's no good reason to believe in God because there's no proof of His existence, there is equally no good reason to believe in the Big Bang.  Obviously I don't agree with either opinion because I recognize that there are good reasons to believe in things that haven't been proven, but you seem to have trouble grasping that concept.

Also, I find your definition of "God" far too narrow:

A God has to be a eternal, all powerful creator, otherwise there wouldn't be a point to call him God. And in order for Him to be eternal, He would have to be immaterial, and would have to have infinite energy.

Why must a God be eternal?  Why must He be all-powerful?  I'd like to see some justification for that.

Quote from: Lorddave on March 31, 2012, 09:48:54 AM

Quote from: The1 on March 31, 2012, 09:41:03 AM

Quote from: Lorddave on March 31, 2012, 05:49:02 AM

If you look at the Background Radiation of the Universe, you'll find a pattern that can't be naturally forming.

That's proof of God.  Especially once you decode it.

I assume your talking about Cosmic background radiation.
That's proof of the Big bang. The beginning of the natural order, aka the opposite of God.

False.
God IS order.  He created natural order.  What do you think that there was a poof and suddenly the entire space-time continuum with all the matter in it's current state suddenly appeared?  No, that's not how it happened.

Also:
The Cosmic Background Radiation has a patterned message in it that, once you decode, will prove that God exists. 

It's hard to talk about the physics that allow the big bang to happen here, because you don't believe in them.

Them?  Are you personifying the various laws of physics?  Just like Ancient Polytheistic religions?

But try to watch this video with an open mind:

errr... why?

What are you basing this decoding hypothesis on btw?

Because hundreds of thousands of people have been shown the pattern.  Weren't you told?

And to all of the people asking "What kind of evidence are you looking for?" That's not my business.

Provide any proof or evidence that only one God created the universe.

It's the theists business, and by making this thread I'm trying to prove the there are no good reasons to believe in a God.

Sure there is: When you don't feel confident in your own strength so you pretend it's coming from somewhere else.