Multiculturalism

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Multiculturalism
« on: February 26, 2012, 11:37:59 PM »
Is it good or bad?

Should countries peserve their ethnic and cultural heritage, or should they accept and embrace all foreign immigrants and cultures no matter what?

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2012, 11:57:28 PM »
Is it good or bad?

Should countries peserve their ethnic and cultural heritage, or should they accept and embrace all foreign immigrants and cultures no matter what?

Multiculturalism is great.  I love that within 10 minutes driving distance of my house i can be at a Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Mexican, Vietnamese, Italian, or middle eastern restaurant where the servers either do not speak English or barely speak it.  That is one the few actual things that makes the US (at least its major cultural centers) somewhat unique.  Los Angeles is a major mash up of tons of different races and cultures, its really exciting.

And in terms of immigration, any economist knows that huge quantities of immigrants is a mixed bag.  A supply of cheap labor is great for increasing overall wealth, but it does lead to overcrowding of cities, strain on public services, and poor living conditions for immigrants.  But the US was built on the strength of immigrants, and its sad in my mind that we have turned our back on the "everyone come here and give happiness your best shot, even if we will most likely just abuse you and you will be poor".  Now our credo is "stop coming here and taking my happiness", which is really annoying.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2012, 12:54:40 AM »
Diversity is strength, only when we have a very wide range of opinions and expectations can we think our way around the inevitable problems that we face.

The problem with MC is when one culture does not accept multiculturalism and wishes to impose itself on the others. That way facsism lies, whether it is the indigenous population or an imported one.

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Mr Pseudonym

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Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2012, 04:57:53 AM »
Is it good or bad?
It is unavoidable so it probably doesn't matter.
Should countries peserve their ethnic and cultural heritage, or should they accept and embrace all foreign immigrants and cultures no matter what?
They should do both. It also could be argued that accepting and embracing other cultures means preserving aspects of the new and old cultural heritages.
Why do we fall back to earth? Because our weight pushes us down, no laws, no gravity pulling us. It is the law of intelligence.

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Thork

Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2012, 07:02:21 AM »
It goes against every human instinct you have. To protect yourself, your family, your tribe, your resources. Its easy to be accommodating when there is plenty for everyone. Its when resources are squeezed you will see people becoming less tolerant. It won't work, but by then it will be too late. Many people will die, but not in my life time.

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Pongo

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Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2012, 07:14:44 AM »
I went to an Ethiopian restaurant once all they served was Red Cross rations.

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Cat Earth Theory

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Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2012, 07:26:25 AM »
It goes against every human instinct you have. To protect yourself, your family, your tribe, your resources. Its easy to be accommodating when there is plenty for everyone. Its when resources are squeezed you will see people becoming less tolerant. It won't work, but by then it will be too late. Many people will die, but not in my life time.

Is "tribe" a slimy way to say race and ethnicity without making yourself look like a white supremacist? 
If you focus on the cloud, and conceive of it just as you would a dream you are trying to interpret, with practice its meanings and memories will be revealed to you.

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Thork

Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2012, 08:05:20 AM »
There is no such thing as 'race'. Its a PC term. There aren't races of cats and races of monkeys and races of hamster and races of horse. Its a slimy way of saying phenotype.

Also did I mention my phenotype? Do you think black people don't prefer the company of black people, that white people don't prefer the company of white people and that Asians don't prefer he company of Asians? Of course they do. Its why you get entire towns and cities of a particular 'race'. People instinctively don't integrate because millions of years of evolution ensured we were never supposed to meet. Europeans weren't supposed to roam Africa, The Chinese were not supposed to live and work in the US, nor were the Europeans, nor were the Africans. It is not natural to live amongst other 'races' of men. And as smart as you think you are (coming here and arguing that the earth is round), your brain is millions and millions of years old, and you can't expect it to just ignore the instinct and natural thought processes that ensured you fought and protected your tribe from the one next door (let alone one from the other side of the earth) in a battle for resources.

If you don't like that, its because you think you are somehow superior to your biology. In control of your subconscious, instinct, your feelings. We can all pretend and even convince ourselves of a 'fact' but when the chips are down and as population rises that time will come, you will see what people really believe. Call it evil, call it racist, call it 'white supremacy'. But its the same for everyone. We are all equally 'racist' and that isn't anyone's fault. We just weren't supposed to live side by side.

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Cat Earth Theory

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Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2012, 08:19:28 AM »
Ah, so you are a white supremacist then.  Glad we cleared that up.
If you focus on the cloud, and conceive of it just as you would a dream you are trying to interpret, with practice its meanings and memories will be revealed to you.

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Thork

Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2012, 08:36:56 AM »
I don't hunt down black people, or treat them with disdain. I gave up my seat on the bus for a pregnant black woman the other day. I have black friends, I enjoy indian and chinese food.

But I am honest with myself. I don't want a black partner. I don't want 'multi-racial' kids, I don't watch ethnic porn. We are only a hundred years or so into trying to integrate. After 100's of thousands of years apart.


I don't want women like this to disappear.


I want people with blonde hair and blue eyes and straight hair and fair skin to survive. And thousands of years of integration means they won't because our genes will be overwhelmed. We'll all have brown eyes, afro hair and brown skin. The most dominant genes will survive. And mine aren't the most dominant. And I don't give a fuck what politicians tell me I should think. Because they are rich, and they are the last people who notice their jobs aren't there or their kids private schools are over crowded, or that cheap food is processed crap in order to feed the billions. I don't see them all marrying black partners.
Call me whatever you want. But if you met me, I'm the most normal and average guy, and you'd never know what I'm thinking. But beware. Because almost everyone thinks like that whatever their colour. They just don't say it because of political correctness. A stupid 21st century game forced on the public by rich people who don't actually have any cause to have to mingle themselves.
We are all competing for survival. I'd rather my 'race' and my culture survived than any other. And there is nothing wrong with that.

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2012, 08:42:10 AM »
Ah, so you are a white supremacist then.  Glad we cleared that up.

He's also bigoted against Jews and gay people.  You'll get used to hearing this kind of crap from him.

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Cat Earth Theory

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Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2012, 08:43:57 AM »
But beware. Because almost everyone thinks like that whatever their colour. They just don't say it because of political correctness.

Evidence?  I'd love to see more mixed-race babies.  It'd be awesome.

And I don't think you really understand genetics.  Dominant genes don't beat up and kill recessive genes.  They're still passed on.

edit:

I have black friends, I enjoy indian and chinese food.

lol
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 08:48:38 AM by Cat Earth Theory »
If you focus on the cloud, and conceive of it just as you would a dream you are trying to interpret, with practice its meanings and memories will be revealed to you.

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Thork

Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2012, 08:54:25 AM »
You are obviously a better person than me. I hope that makes you feel great. Pity me if you like.

I just think you are full of sh*t and incapable of thinking for yourself, but carry on. You seem happy.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 08:56:03 AM by Thork »

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Thork

Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2012, 09:00:21 AM »
He's also bigoted against Jews
You're just making stuff up now. Feel free to find a quote.

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Cat Earth Theory

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Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2012, 09:01:15 AM »
You are obviously a better person than me. I hope that makes you feel great. Pity me if you like.

I just think you are full of sh*t and incapable of thinking for yourself, but carry on. You seem happy.

Ah, so no evidence then.  This is just an attempt to rationalize racist tendencies rather than confront them.  I see.
If you focus on the cloud, and conceive of it just as you would a dream you are trying to interpret, with practice its meanings and memories will be revealed to you.

Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2012, 09:05:35 AM »
So it's racism to wish for the survival of the Caucasian people?

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2012, 09:07:15 AM »
It's funny to watch racist people try to defend their racism.

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Cat Earth Theory

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Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2012, 09:12:36 AM »
Let me explain what I've seen when looking at racism for a second here.

What I've seen is that racism is not equal.  When it exists in an area, it tends to favor the dominant group, whoever that happens to be.

And it's not just members of the dominant group who feel this way, it's often everyone.  Throughout Latin America there's been the tradition of blanqueamiento, the attempt to whiten up darker people.  What's interesting is that this is often carried out by darker-skinned families themselves.  They feel that whiter people are somehow better and will get a better chance in life.  They're actively trying to make their kids look different from themselves.

There's clearly more going on here than simple discrimination in favor of people with a phenotype similar to your own.  You're ignoring all the complexity of racism as it appears in the real world.
If you focus on the cloud, and conceive of it just as you would a dream you are trying to interpret, with practice its meanings and memories will be revealed to you.

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Thork

Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2012, 09:15:23 AM »
This is just an attempt to rationalize racist tendencies rather than confront them.
There you go again with that dumb label "racist". There is no such thing as race. Bullshit baffles brains.

So you think it perfectly natural that people who were separated by thousands of miles of ocean and thousands of years of evolution now suddenly living side by side?
I don't see the grey squirrels in the UK living happily with their red neighbours. They have all but made them extinct since their arrival. I don't see introduced cane toads living happily with native Australian toads. I don't see these nice catfish sharing their pond with the current local catfish.

But you are better than all the other animals. You are god-like, perfect and know better than nature. Its arrogance like that that has given us all these social problems.

It's funny to watch racist people try to defend their racism.
We can all tell lies. I can pretend I love integration if it will get me a promotion or allow me to take the moral high-ground.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 09:18:06 AM by Thork »

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Cat Earth Theory

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Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2012, 09:15:54 AM »
So it's racism to wish for the survival of the Caucasian people?

I like how it's termed "survival" as if anyone is suggesting sterilizing all white people and putting them in concentration camps.

People will have children.  If there are more mixed-race marriages, those children are going to look different.  If you think that's sad and want to prevent that from happening, then yes, that's kind of weird.  Things change.  It's not going to be in your lifetime.
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Benjamin Franklin

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Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2012, 09:20:11 AM »
I can't understand why Thork asserts that humans should act like all other animals. Does he really think we should get our moral and social guidelines from squirrels?

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Cat Earth Theory

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Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2012, 09:20:44 AM »
This is just an attempt to rationalize racist tendencies rather than confront them.
There you go again with that dumb label "racist". There is no such thing as race. Bullshit baffles brains.

So you think it perfectly natural that people who were separated by thousands of miles of ocean and thousands of years of evolution now suddenly living side by side?
I don't see the grey squirrels in the UK living happily with their red neighbours. They have all but made them extinct since their arrival. I don't see introduced cane toads living happily with native Australian toads. I don't see these nice catfish sharing their pond with the current local catfish.

But you are better than all the other animals. You are god-like, perfect and know better than nature. Its arrogance like that that has given us all these social problems.

It's funny to watch racist people try to defend their racism.
We can all tell lies. I can pretend I love integration if it will get me a promotion or allow me to take the moral high-ground.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/picturesoftheday/8602696/Pictures-of-the-day-28-June-2011.html?image=3

Oh no, these grizzlies are fighting their own kind!  They're all race traitors!
If you focus on the cloud, and conceive of it just as you would a dream you are trying to interpret, with practice its meanings and memories will be revealed to you.

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rooster

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Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2012, 09:27:42 AM »
We are animals so our behavior shouldn't surprise anyone. We should also not try to think too highly of ourselves as we are instinctual beings. I personally love mixed babies- they're friggen adorable. But I prefer my men pasty white. Although Chinese boys can be quite lovely as well.

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Thork

Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2012, 09:29:19 AM »
The bears are fighting for a mate, you dumbass.

Its not like chimpanzees who attack and eat rival tribes of chimp when resource is scarce.

You aren't better than all the other animals just because you had social correction lessons in school.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451
The Germans are at least honest about it. You can't fight nature.

We are animals so our behavior shouldn't surprise anyone. We should also not try to think too highly of ourselves as we are instinctual beings. I personally love mixed babies- they're friggen adorable. But I prefer my men pasty white. Although Chinese boys can be quite lovely as well.
Well adorable mixed babies don't grow into pasty men. :-\

Its not wrong to like and favour your own kind. That's just stupid talk.

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Wendy

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Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2012, 09:32:12 AM »
We are animals so our behavior shouldn't surprise anyone. We should also not try to think too highly of ourselves as we are instinctual beings. I personally love mixed babies- they're friggen adorable. But I prefer my men pasty white. Although Chinese boys can be quite lovely as well.

We're not suggesting that we as a species should think highly of ourselves and everything will be fine. We want to act appropriately. If there is no moral or ethical reason for "preserving the Caucasian people" or whatever isolationist bull an opponent to multi-culturalism wants to use to describe their isolationist utopia, then we should not do it. And to be quite frank, I'd love to be shown a reason or two.
Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.

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Chris Spaghetti

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Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2012, 09:36:29 AM »
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I don't hunt down black people, or treat them with disdain. I gave up my seat on the bus for a pregnant black woman the other day. I have black friends, I enjoy indian and chinese food.


Lol, have we seriously just had the 'some of my best friends are black' card played?

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But I am honest with myself. I don't want a black partner. I don't want 'multi-racial' kids, I don't watch ethnic porn. We are only a hundred years or so into trying to integrate. After 100's of thousands of years apart.


Seriously, beyonce and the girl in my avatar do nothing for you? Each to their own, I guess...

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I don't want women like this to disappear.


They're not about to any time soon, don't worry your little head about it. Why do you care that in a thousand generations after your death people might find different standards of beauty attractive?

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I want people with blonde hair and blue eyes and straight hair and fair skin to survive.


Why do you care? Why is it important that in a thousand generations the people have white skin and blonde hair? As long as humanity survives and we're still pushing the boundaries of knowledge, does it matter if they have black skin, white skin or, through cosmetic genetics, blue skin with tawny fur?

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Call me whatever you want. But if you met me, I'm the most normal and average guy, and you'd never know what I'm thinking. But beware. Because almost everyone thinks like that whatever their colour.


If you don't know what others are thinking, how do you assess that you're 'normal?'

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They just don't say it because of political correctness. A stupid 21st century game forced on the public by rich people who don't actually have any cause to have to mingle themselves.


Ahh yes, and we finish the bingo with 'political correctness gone mad.'

What is wrong with trying to limit the amount of abuse people take purely on the basis of the colour of their skin?

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We are all competing for survival. I'd rather my 'race' and my culture survived than any other. And there is nothing wrong with that.

Races diffuse, cultures change, adapt, assimilate, absorb and morph depending on the needs of the people. I want to know, for instance if you're British then what is the acme of 'British-ness' you want to preserve? Someone from 1950 would not recognise the Britain of 2010 or 1900 or 1800 or 1700. The language, for one thing, is vastly different, the religion, the values, the aesthetics. I always like to ask in this situation "Are you Angle or are you Saxon?"

Trying to preserve a culture is an incredibly ridiculous thing to try to do. It is far too fluid and changing to preserve in any recognisable form longer than the generation who live in it.

« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 09:41:21 AM by Chris Spaghetti »

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Cat Earth Theory

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Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2012, 09:38:56 AM »
The bears are fighting for a mate, you dumbass.

Actually, they're fighting for a fish.  It's quite common in the summer when all the bears pack close together to get salmon.

And as for biology, there are so many exceptions to normal behavior.

Let's take the Red-necked Phalarope http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red-necked_Phalarope.  Unlike most other birds, the females court, and even fight over, the males.  The females are more brightly colored than the males, and larger.

Different animals are different.  Bears have trouble being close together without viciously fighting over food.  Other animals live together all the time and rarely fight.

And as for your catfish, one breed was twice as large as the other.  It was more aggressive and ate more food.  No racism was needed for it to destroy the smaller catfish population.  I'm sure that members of that breed that are born smaller or weaker face similar problems.
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Wendy

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Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2012, 09:45:37 AM »
I'll just throw out the question, why do any of the isolationists in this thread actually care if you're not bothered by other cultures and "lol phenotypes?" You're not going to contribute to much and you're not going to see the changes that ARE made to their full potential in your relatively tiny lifespans. Who cares what culture "wins?"
Here's an explanation for ya. Lurk moar. Every single point you brought up has been posted, reposted, debated and debunked. There is a search function on this forum, and it is very easy to use.

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rooster

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Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2012, 09:52:43 AM »
@Thork- I'm not looking to make a mix baby my mate. There are plenty of pasty men about.

Anyway, there's nothing wrong with having a favorite "look" and not wanting it to dwindle into a minority. If people end up all being a monotonous mixed brown hair, brown eye, tan skin type that would be extremely boring. Everyone is entitled to their own tastes, but variety is the spice of life. Don't hate on Thork cause he doesn't like the brownies, that's just bigoted.

And it is absolutely not ridiculous to try an preserve a culture. In a connected world like ours heritage is very important. Different cultures is what makes the world so amazing and diverse. I'm not arguing for a winning culture, but the preservation of cultures and ethnic groups.

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Cat Earth Theory

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Re: Multiculturalism
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2012, 09:55:07 AM »
I'll also point out that it's odd to assume that we're going to form tribes along phenotypical lines encompassing what might be considered a race.  We have friends, we have families that add in new members from other places.  These social ties seem to be what matter when you get down to it, not protecting people who happen to share a few similar traits..
If you focus on the cloud, and conceive of it just as you would a dream you are trying to interpret, with practice its meanings and memories will be revealed to you.