Abortion is about the worship of sex.

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Blanko

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #180 on: February 20, 2012, 06:50:24 PM »
Hands up everyone who thinks rooster is confusing analogies with metaphors.

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rooster

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #181 on: February 20, 2012, 06:56:39 PM »
Hands up everyone who thinks rooster is confusing analogies with metaphors.
Well I suppose that's true as technically it was more of a metaphor but others here have been referring to it as an analogy so I just went with it. Still, the point is I was not saying a fetus is literally a parasite, nor does a metaphor (or analogy) rely on the world like or as such as a simile. Wilmore refuses to look up these definitions apparently.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #182 on: February 20, 2012, 07:15:33 PM »
Well I suppose that's true as technically it was more of a metaphor but others here have been referring to it as an analogy so I just went with it. Still, the point is I was not saying a fetus is literally a parasite, nor does a metaphor (or analogy) rely on the world like or as such as a simile. Wilmore refuses to look up these definitions apparently.


I don't want to drag this off-topic, but rooster, all you said was "If it can't survive outside of the womb it's not a person, just a parasite". That is not a statement that in any way conveys that you are making an analogy or using a metaphor. It's just a bald statement. Granted, I did not think you were saying it was by definition a parasite, but I did take it to mean that you were saying they are morally equivalent. However, it's pretty clear that they are not, as if we take away the crucial distinction of "species", then almost all children are parasites, and a great many adults, yet I doubt you would agree that it's okay to kill them on that basis.


And remember, before you start talking about their sentience, remember that's a separate argument. I'm happy to discuss/pursue that, but let's leave this "parasite" stuff behind first.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Blanko

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #183 on: February 20, 2012, 07:20:26 PM »
but I did take it to mean that you were saying they are morally equivalent.

I don't see a problem with that. If the child is not wanted by the mother and she wants to get rid of it, I think it's sufficient to say the fetus is parasitic at that point.

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rooster

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #184 on: February 20, 2012, 07:23:09 PM »
Well children can survive outside of the host's body, so that's hardly the same thing. But yes, I am for euthanasia for vegetables (I don't mean literal vegetables).

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #185 on: February 20, 2012, 07:26:14 PM »
but I did take it to mean that you were saying they are morally equivalent.

I don't see a problem with that. If the child is not wanted by the mother and she wants to get rid of it, I think it's sufficient to say the fetus is parasitic at that point.


Okay, so I have a child, he's 9 months old, and he needs me to survive but doesn't pay a goddamn cent towards bread or board. Parasite, right? I don't want him anymore, so why can't I just chuck him in the microwave and feed him to Felix, who at least catches a few mice here and there?


Well children can survive outside of the host's body, so that's hardly the same thing. But yes, I am for euthanasia for vegetables (I don't mean literal vegetables).


Why does living outside the body matter with regard to its parasitism? Lots of parasites live outside the hosts body.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Blanko

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #186 on: February 20, 2012, 07:28:45 PM »
but I did take it to mean that you were saying they are morally equivalent.

I don't see a problem with that. If the child is not wanted by the mother and she wants to get rid of it, I think it's sufficient to say the fetus is parasitic at that point.


Okay, so I have a child, he's 9 months old, and he needs me to survive but doesn't pay a goddamn cent towards bread or board. Parasite, right? I don't want him anymore, so why can't I just chuck him in the microwave and feed him to Felix, who at least catches a few mice here and there?

You can, of course, but doing so will violate its human rights. And, as I'm sure we've already concluded, pro-choicers do not generally believe that early stage fetuses have human rights.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #187 on: February 20, 2012, 07:36:12 PM »
How can a "parasite" have human rights? And why is it that some "parasites" have human rights, but others don't?
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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Blanko

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #188 on: February 20, 2012, 07:42:52 PM »
How can a "parasite" have human rights? And why is it that some "parasites" have human rights, but others don't?

The question of attributing human rights to fetuses is irrelevant to fetuses being possibly parasitic. Or do you believe that humans that can be attributed as parasitic, as you did in your previous post, do not deserve human rights?

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #189 on: February 20, 2012, 07:55:11 PM »
The question of attributing human rights to fetuses is irrelevant to fetuses being possibly parasitic.


Agreed! Thank you for acknowleding the point I have been trying to make: that whether or not a foetus is analogically similar or equivalent to a parasite has no bearing on whether it is moral or immoral to abort it. It is therefore a pointless analogy to make in this context, and has no argumentative value.


Note: I do not think you have been making the contrary argument - others have. You just sort of joined in half-way.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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rooster

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #190 on: February 20, 2012, 08:01:26 PM »
but I did take it to mean that you were saying they are morally equivalent.

I don't see a problem with that. If the child is not wanted by the mother and she wants to get rid of it, I think it's sufficient to say the fetus is parasitic at that point.


Okay, so I have a child, he's 9 months old, and he needs me to survive but doesn't pay a goddamn cent towards bread or board. Parasite, right? I don't want him anymore, so why can't I just chuck him in the microwave and feed him to Felix, who at least catches a few mice here and there?
Because after dealing with a needy fetus for 9 months and then birthing it plus all the money you've already spent, I'd assume you'd want to keep the kid in hopes of it becoming a useful member of society. But aside from morality I guess there's nothing wrong with killing it. However, in my earlier post I not only said a fetus is a parasite but that it's also not a human which is an important detail in this argument. You are suggesting that a human can be a parasite where I was suggesting that an early fetus is more a parasite than human.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #191 on: February 20, 2012, 08:15:47 PM »
Because after dealing with a needy fetus for 9 months and then birthing it plus all the money you've already spent, I'd assume you'd want to keep the kid in hopes of it becoming a useful member of society.


Different argument. There are loads of ways to tackle this issue; I'm addressing just one because I think it's particularly bad. You can't just throw them all in together and hit 'blend'.


But aside from morality I guess there's nothing wrong with killing it. However, in my earlier post I not only said a fetus is a parasite but that it's also not a human which is an important detail in this argument. You are suggesting that a human can be a parasite where I was suggesting that an early fetus is more a parasite than human.


Okay, before I get ahead of myself in assuming that what you mean by "human" is the same as what everyone else means by "human", what do you mean? Because these days a human is identified as such through its human DNA, something a foetus has.


Moreover, in saying that a "fetus is more a parasite than a human, you appear to suggest that the two are in some way mutually exclusive (even if there are shades of grey inbetween). I don't see why a human foetus cannot be a "parasite" in an analogical sense and a human at the same time. They're only incompatible concepts if we use the strict scientific definition of "parasite", something you resisted earlier. In short, I don't know what point you're trying to make.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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rooster

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #192 on: February 20, 2012, 08:31:01 PM »
I'm not saying they're exclusive, just that an early fetus is more a parasite than a human. I'm not entirely sure where I would draw the line, but I certainly don't consider any fetus up to 8 weeks old a human. Of course it'll eventually become a human but anything the size of a raspberry regardless of DNA does not have human rights. I suppose to answer your question my definition is more about sentience than just DNA.

And yes I resisted the strict scientific definition of a parasite as it would have to be a different species as you mentioned earlier, which is obviously not the case.

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Blanko

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #193 on: February 20, 2012, 08:35:48 PM »
I'm not saying they're exclusive, just that an early fetus is more a parasite than a human. I'm not entirely sure where I would draw the line, but I certainly don't consider any fetus up to 8 weeks old a human. Of course it'll eventually become a human but anything the size of a raspberry regardless of DNA does not have human rights. I suppose to answer your question my definition is more about sentience than just DNA.

And yes I resisted the strict scientific definition of a parasite as it would have to be a different species as you mentioned earlier, which is obviously not the case.

God. This is why you never discuss the definition of human. Do you think that human rights are a necessity for being human? Do you think that unconscious people who are at the time not sentient aren't human? Whatever definition someone pulls out of their arse, there's always so many follow-up questions to be asked.

I don't even think it's relevant to the discussion on abortion. Rather, I'd want to see someone bring up the matter of personhood - can fetuses be qualified as persons, and do non-personified humans share the same rights as those who have been personified? That, I think, is a lot more important.

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Lord Wilmore

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #194 on: February 20, 2012, 09:04:28 PM »
I'm not saying they're exclusive, just that an early fetus is more a parasite than a human. I'm not entirely sure where I would draw the line, but I certainly don't consider any fetus up to 8 weeks old a human. Of course it'll eventually become a human but anything the size of a raspberry regardless of DNA does not have human rights. I suppose to answer your question my definition is more about sentience than just DNA.

And yes I resisted the strict scientific definition of a parasite as it would have to be a different species as you mentioned earlier, which is obviously not the case.

God. This is why you never discuss the definition of human. Do you think that human rights are a necessity for being human? Do you think that unconscious people who are at the time not sentient aren't human? Whatever definition someone pulls out of their arse, there's always so many follow-up questions to be asked.

I don't even think it's relevant to the discussion on abortion. Rather, I'd want to see someone bring up the matter of personhood - can fetuses be qualified as persons, and do non-personified humans share the same rights as those who have been personified? That, I think, is a lot more important.


Agree. There are much better and more productive ways to discuss abortion than all this stuff about absolute rights over one's body or foetuses being "parasites". In my opinion sentience and personhood are very difficult concepts and very hard to pin down, but they are at least morally relevant. Whether or not a 9-month old child is analagous to a parasite or not is irrelevant. We all recognise that morally there is something there that is not present/significant 9 days after conception, and it's not parasitic status or rights over one's body (which is why murder or neglect of a child are both considered immoral).
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

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rooster

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #195 on: February 20, 2012, 09:18:45 PM »
But why would defining a human be irrelevant to an abortion debate? I mean person/human, tomato/tomato. You're not changing the discussion only be super pedantic.

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Supertails

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #196 on: February 20, 2012, 10:22:39 PM »
Holy crap, this could be a perfectly fine debate and here it's turning into semantics and pedantry. Jesus. :-\
Recently listened to:


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rooster

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #197 on: February 20, 2012, 10:24:56 PM »
Holy crap, this could be a perfectly fine debate and here it's turning into semantics and pedantry. Jesus. :-\
Good, I thought I was the only one thinking this.

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Blanko

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #198 on: February 20, 2012, 10:25:36 PM »
What, are you talking about humanity and personhood? The difference is enormous. Especially in a moral debate.

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rooster

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #199 on: February 20, 2012, 10:29:27 PM »
What, are you talking about humanity and personhood? The difference is enormous. Especially in a moral debate.
I guess- if you mean human in a strictly scientific sense and personhood in a philosophical sense(?). To me the two aren't separate concepts so I'll just drop out of this one.

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Blanko

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #200 on: February 20, 2012, 10:30:27 PM »
What, are you talking about humanity and personhood? The difference is enormous. Especially in a moral debate.
I guess- if you mean human in a strictly scientific sense and personhood in a philosophical sense(?). To me the two aren't separate concepts so I'll just drop out of this one.

A wise choice.

And you already pointed out one major difference. The definition of human is too indeterminate for moral debate regardless of where you're looking at it. Like in your definition, if humans are defined as being sentient, that opens up several moral dilemmas: should sentient animals be granted the same rights as humans, and do humans who are temporarily nonsentient have rights? Since you can merely look at it from a "strictly scientific sense", while another can look at it from a purely philosophical sense, it's not a very good concept to use in an abortion debate. Personhood, however, is not concerned with what defines a human, and is therefore much more applicable. A personal identity can persist even if the criteria for humanity are not temporarily met, and it's much easier to pin down when a human becomes a person. Like Wilmore said, a newborn baby is drastically different from an unborn fetus, even though from a purely human point of view, they're both still very early in development. That is because the newborn baby is a person, and the fetus isn't. The fetus can be held as human but it's not something other persons can relate to easily until the child is born.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 10:45:30 PM by Blanko »

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #201 on: February 21, 2012, 07:58:53 AM »
Holy crap, this could be a perfectly fine debate and here it's turning into semantics and pedantry. Jesus. :-\

Happens every time.

Let's all worship sex by having abortions. It'll be fun!
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Around And About

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #202 on: February 21, 2012, 10:21:11 AM »
The correct way to worship sex is by doing it inside a church (during a service for bonus points).
I'm not black nor a thug, I'm more like god who will bring 7 plagues of flat earth upon your ass.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #203 on: February 21, 2012, 11:29:31 AM »
All you have done is present your own defintions of certain terms, and then using those definitions justify your comparisons. If that was an acceptable move, why couldn't I just do the same thing? Why should your definition carry more weight than mine? Especially as my usage is the accepted usage.
1. Because we wouldn't be talking about the same thing. Reductio ad absurdum tactics require using the same definitions. (As does any counterargument)
2. No definitions have really changed. In every case, we are citing the behavior or the fetus in contrast with the behavior of a parasite. Parasite still means parasite. Fetus still means fetus. The comparison itself doesn't actually use different meanings of the word. People are arguing that a fetus behaves like a parasite (by the scientific definition).

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A foetus has many more characteristics that distinguish it from a tumour than it does similarities, which is why it is a lousy analogy.
Can you name one of the characteristics and explain why it was detrimental to omit it? Preferably other than its potential to become a child, since we are already covering that below.

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Secondly, the scientific definition includes difference of species. It's a crucial distinction, because bearing offspring is a crucial part of most animals' reproductive cycle. One can make the case for abortion without resorting to emotive and inaccurate language.
What makes that a crucial distinction?
When only considering its current behavior and lack of sentience, I find it more emotive and inaccurate to consider it under guise of offspring. Associations of children evokes human imperatives and protective emotions that relentlessly value our own species over others.

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It wouldn't be a comparison if the fetus was actually classified as a parasite. However, since that single deviating aspect is irrelevant, why can't the sentiment associated with the original definition still function?
I know of no analogy that doesn't let the subject deviate from what it compares something to by an irrelevant difference.

Because the "deviating aspect" is the only one that actually matters. The comparison is only used for its pejorative value.
The value of a fetus is under examination.
If parasites are not valued because of their behaviors, why is examining that similarity a fallacy?

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My point is simply that there are lots of acts which affect other people to no greater extent than abortion does, yet we do not think those acts are "okay".
If you'd like to extend the notion to other facets, be my guest. If I recall, suicide was an issue, and I happen to think people should have a right to commit suicide. Euthanasia, or otherwise.

Shortened to remove redundancies.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 09:58:17 PM by ﮎingulaЯiτy »
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #204 on: February 21, 2012, 12:06:39 PM »
Can't we all just agree that the pedantic shit ruins interesting threads and move on?

I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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ﮎingulaЯiτy

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #205 on: February 21, 2012, 03:48:33 PM »
Can't we all just agree that the pedantic shit ruins interesting threads and move on?

Move onto what?  :-\
Wardogg's kinda hanging back on several points.
If I was asked to imagine a perfect deity, I would never invent one that suffers from a multiple personality disorder. Christians get points for originality there.

Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #206 on: February 21, 2012, 04:22:45 PM »
And I doubt he'll catch up, since he just calls you mean and immature when you remind him of that fact.

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #207 on: February 21, 2012, 04:35:16 PM »
Can't we all just agree that the pedantic shit ruins interesting threads and move on?

Move onto what?  :-\
Wardogg's kinda hanging back on several points.

Something besides this boring shit? We all know what rooster meant by "parasite" including Wilmore. This thread wasn't about whether a fetus is a baby or not, it's about sexual attitudes. We've had the abortion discussion on this forum a million times, this thread was actually something new and interesting.

Wardogg can't be expected to answer every point. He's not your answer monkey. You guys are as bad as the angry RE noobs.

Bah... fuck it. You guys have at it.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Thork


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WardoggKC130FE

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Re: Abortion is about the worship of sex.
« Reply #209 on: February 21, 2012, 05:37:08 PM »
Can't we all just agree that the pedantic shit ruins interesting threads and move on?

Move onto what?  :-\
Wardogg's kinda hanging back on several points.

Something besides this boring shit? We all know what rooster meant by "parasite" including Wilmore. This thread wasn't about whether a fetus is a baby or not, it's about sexual attitudes. We've had the abortion discussion on this forum a million times, this thread was actually something new and interesting.

Wardogg can't be expected to answer every point. He's not your answer monkey. You guys are as bad as the angry RE noobs.

Bah... fuck it. You guys have at it.

Apparently I have to be.  When like minded people come to help out they get accused by Densoro of sleeping with me or getting naked on top of me and really, who wants to be associated with that?



I'm not into the parasite debate Singy.  All though if the rest of you would like to have at it here is some more to discuss.   Apparently killing parasites creates a crime scene.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/plumbers-fetus-discovery-in-a-sewer-pipe-leads-to-philly-police-investigation/


I would be more than willing to discuss any other points you would like.


And I doubt he'll catch up, since he just calls you mean and immature when you remind him of that fact.
   

No just you.  I don't like you.