Re: Non-Technical To-Do List

This probably isn't the correct thread for this suggestion, but something really needs to be done about the angry noobs accusing anyone who takes the FE side in the discussions of being trolls. This is the Flat Earth Society! It's not important if the person taking the flat side really believes the earth is flat.  Just about every thread in the upper forums turns into a debate over who's trolling. 

I remember Daniel posting once that he created this board so that people with alternative ideas would have a place to discuss them. Now it seems like the board is a place for people with alternative ideas to be mocked.

I know that I do not participate in the upper forums, but I appreciate the people who valiantly try to keep the FE community going, and I enjoy reading the discussions from time to time... well I used to enjoy it.

Believe me when I say that I understand that this is a problem, and that it's something I want to try and fix. As you say, I'm not sure the answer lies in moderation, but I definitely agree that moderators have a part to play. However, this is ultimately about changing the atmosphere of the upper boards, so I also think members can play their part too. If you find someone's posts unduly rude, dismissive or caustic, tell them so. Call them out on it, and if necessary tell them you refuse to debate with them if they're going to behave in that manner.


When I posted more regularly (something I hope to start doing again), this was something I did all the time, and it worked. Once you make it clear to people that you're not willing to put up with their rudeness, they'll usually modify their posting style, because otherwise they can't engage with you at all. I encourage everyone to give this a go. Get involved, and be picky. Don't be afraid to take the high ground.

Part of the problem is that the most of the angry noobs come and go so quickly that there really isn't much we can do about them.  However, in my opinion, if FE'ers want to be taken seriously (and I really don't see much evidence that they do), then they should be above goading and/or trolling the noobs.  The same goes with the RE regulars.  If we're so sure that we're right, then we should be able to present calm, coherent arguments to support our cases.  But that brings us back to the frustration of FE'ers (necessarily) needing to deny conventional science in lieu of more and more extravagant theories.  Of course the back and forth is what give this place it's color and charm, but the real question is "how do we strike a balance?"

I'm not concerned with the one post wonders.

For some reason, you're the only mod who posts in the upper forums, which would be fine if you were unbiased. For whatever reason you allow Clocktower and The "knowledge" to derail any thread Archibald posts in. I understand that he is annoying and that he's probably Verrine's alt, and it would be better for the discussions if he'd finally tire of the character and move on, but as long as you allow the threads to devolve into correcting his spelling, or bringing up the bee shit, or whatever, he will never leave. Also, your RE gang are encouraging poor little squevil to accuse everyone of being trolls.

Quote from: markjo on February 11, 2012, 11:18:39 AM

Part of the problem is that the most of the angry noobs come and go so quickly that there really isn't much we can do about them.  However, in my opinion, if FE'ers want to be taken seriously (and I really don't see much evidence that they do), then they should be above goading and/or trolling the noobs.  The same goes with the RE regulars.  If we're so sure that we're right, then we should be able to present calm, coherent arguments to support our cases.  But that brings us back to the frustration of FE'ers (necessarily) needing to deny conventional science in lieu of more and more extravagant theories.  Of course the back and forth is what give this place it's color and charm, but the real question is "how do we strike a balance?"

I'm not concerned with the one post wonders.

For some reason, you're the only mod who posts in the upper forums, which would be fine if you were unbiased. For whatever reason you allow Clocktower and The "knowledge" to derail any thread Archibald posts in. I understand that he is annoying and that he's probably Verrine's alt, and it would be better for the discussions if he'd finally tire of the character and move on, but as long as you allow the threads to devolve into correcting his spelling, or bringing up the bee shit, or whatever, he will never leave. Also, your RE gang are encouraging poor little squevil to accuse everyone of being trolls.

You're right SCG, I don't hide my bias, but I do try to be fair.  The way I see it (and I might be wrong about this) posters such as Archibald are obvious trolls who goad people like ClockTower (and myself, I must confess) off topic with eloquent prose that ultimately parses into utter nonsense.  As near as I can figure, this will never change.  I think that all we can hope for is try to keep tempers down to a simmer when it does happen, and even that sounds optimistic.

It would change if you and your RE friends didn't respond to him, especially when he posts in a thread he didn't start.  It would change if you'd remind the REers that being an FEer on TFES isn't trolling (necessarily). Also, starting out as RE and switching to FE isn't trolling either, almost everyone who stays does that.

It would change if you'd remind the REers that being an FEer on TFES isn't trolling (necessarily). Also, starting out as RE and switching to FE isn't trolling either, almost everyone who stays does that.

The only problem with that is that sometimes it's hard to tell who seriously believes in FE, who is a DA and who is just a troll.  Don't tell me that there aren't plenty of "FE'ers" who are either alts or just here to stir up trouble and discredit FET.  I think that FE'ers have a responsibility to police their own ranks to weed out those trouble makers posing as FE'ers. 

The only problem with that is that sometimes it's hard to tell who seriously believes in FE, who is a DA and who is just a troll.  Don't tell me that there aren't plenty of "FE'ers" who are either alts or just here to stir up trouble and discredit FET.  I think that FE'ers have a responsibility to police their own ranks to weed out those trouble makers posing as FE'ers.

Why?

It doesn't matter who seriously believes and who is playing devil's advocate. I noticed that several threads have been derailed by the RE gang calling anyone willing to take the flat side liars and trolls.  Someone has to take the flat side, or there wouldn't be any discussion at all. It shouldn't matter if someone was arguing the RE side yesterday, and switched to FE today, as long as they're not breaking the rules.

It's not that hard to tell when someone takes the FE side to stir up trouble, they post about KFC, or bees, or moonshramp. I know there used to be lots of alts in the past, but I only suspect a couple now. FE'ers can't police other FE'ers! It's the mods job to police the forums and weed out trouble makers. If you've noticed it's the RE'ers who constantly feed the trouble makers. Example: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=53154.0 not one of the regular FE people have bothered with this thread.

FE'ers can't police other FE'ers! It's the mods job to police the forums and weed out trouble makers.

Last time I checked, most of the mods were FE'ers.

If you've noticed it's the RE'ers who constantly feed the trouble makers. Example: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=53154.0 not one of the regular FE people have bothered with this thread.

And not one of the regular FE people (or FE mods) is calling him out as a trouble maker either. 

Guys, as I said, I don't want to see this dominate the thread. Don't make me get all adminy and stuff.

You're right Wimore, off topic rants split.

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on February 11, 2012, 06:11:20 PM

FE'ers can't police other FE'ers! It's the mods job to police the forums and weed out trouble makers.

Last time I checked, most of the mods were FE'ers.

Quote

If you've noticed it's the RE'ers who constantly feed the trouble makers. Example: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=53154.0 not one of the regular FE people have bothered with this thread.

And not one of the regular FE people (or FE mods) is calling him out as a trouble maker either.

Why should the regular members, FE or not, call him out? People who come here to make trouble do it because they get reactions, especially from you and the RE gang. 

Also, this wasn't off topic, or a rant. It's a genuine non-technical concern about the forum. I haven't been rude, or ranty. Get a grip.

Why should the regular members, FE or not, call him out? People who come here to make trouble do it because they get reactions, especially from you and the RE gang. 

If you guys don't mind this site full of troublemakers, then what are you complaining about?  Or are you saying that FE troublemakers are OK but RE troublemakers aren't?  I guess I'm confused as to what kind of people you want representing FES.

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on February 12, 2012, 07:17:15 AM

Why should the regular members, FE or not, call him out? People who come here to make trouble do it because they get reactions, especially from you and the RE gang. 

If you guys don't mind this site full of troublemakers, then what are you complaining about?  Or are you saying that FE troublemakers are OK but RE troublemakers aren't?  I guess I'm confused as to what kind of people you want representing FES.

I think you have a comprehension problem. I'm trying to tell you that by giving the troublemakers so much attention, you are encouraging them to stick around. The regular FE'ers on this site tend to ignore them. There's nothing regular members of this site can do about troublemakers, confronting them only leads to derailed threads, and petty arguments, and besides that "memberating" is against the rules. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Is it because you think I'm harshly or unfairly criticizing you? You are the active mod in the upper forums, that isn't your fault, it's just a fact. Sometimes you're going to have to stand up for TFES.

The concern has been raised, heard, and taken on board. If you want to continue this discussion with markjo, send him a PM. Arguing with him here is not helping. I am genuinely aware of the problem, and I'm not just ignoring it. You have my word on that.

Are you really saying not to discuss this out in the open where others can join in? Since when is a reasonable discussion considered arguing?

You'll have to forgive me for not having much faith in your word at the moment.

I am saying there is little point. I am not going to do any more than I already am just because I see another 2-3 pages of posts on the subject. I've already said I realise it's a problem and that it needs to be addressed. And even if you don't believe me (which, frankly, is a mistake), I don't see what 2-3 pages of argument are going to do about that. If you need/want to vent to markjo, vent to markjo. You don't need to vent to me, and I don't need you to vent to me either.

Wait... so now I'm venting? We were having a civilized discussion about a problem on the forum. If he is tired of talking about it, he can just stop replying. I don't know where you get the idea I was venting to you, I wasn't even talking to you. I also don't know why you think I was suggesting you do more than you're already doing, since I never mention you needing to do anything. Did you even read the thread?

You realize markjo split the thread, and the discussion is no longer taking up space in your official Non-tech to-do list thread? It's no longer necessary for you to get "adminy". 

SCG ... are you eye-balling Wilmore?

Space Cowgirl   00:34:49   Viewing Lord Wilmore's profile.

I was gonna send him a PM asking him if he's drunk, but I changed my mind.

Thork, do you think I'm being unreasonable or anything? I don't understand why Wilmore is offended by my posts in this thread. Maybe they don't read the way they sound to me when I type them.

I understand suggestions and concerns is a place for just that, however I feel an urge to enunciate that I am deeply grieved that space cowgirl would label me as a trouble maker.  I am a respected poster here.  Many of my posts interest people which is why they respond.  If it werent for me, I would say that several active posters here who began posting within the last 3 months probably wouldnt have stuck around.  It was those late nite discussions with uncle archie which kept their interest long enough to pursue further participation on these fora.  AAF loyalists (anti-Archibald fanatics) seem to think these fora would magically get a hundred times better if Archibald were no longer here, and frankly this is an outlandish sentiment to adopt. 

SCG:
To me it sounds like you're having a discussion with markjo about his moderation decisions.
Not exactly something that belongs in this thread.

Thork, do you think I'm being unreasonable or anything?

I suspect Wilmore has a torn loyalty between another mod and a user's grievance. Its not really a win win situation for him. He's aware of it and probably intends to deal with it diplomatically or at least out of the glare of the public eye, and this thread isn't facilitating that. I'd give him a week to get his sh*t together ... and then I'd make him miserable.

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on February 12, 2012, 04:40:39 PM

Thork, do you think I'm being unreasonable or anything?

I'd give him a week to get his sh*t together ... and then I'd make him miserable.

....
That's awfully angry sounding.

It wasn't meant to sound so.

I was gonna send him a PM asking him if he's drunk, but I changed my mind.

Thork, do you think I'm being unreasonable or anything? I don't understand why Wilmore is offended by my posts in this thread. Maybe they don't read the way they sound to me when I type them.

It's probably because he already agreed with you and said it needs to be addressed and you won't stop talking about it. You're trying to get an instant reaction, but he has more important things to do.

It wasn't meant to sound so.

Telling someone to make Wilmore miserable isn't a nice thing to say.  Especially when the to-do list is very long.

It's probably because he already agreed with you and said it needs to be addressed and you won't stop talking about it. You're trying to get an instant reaction, but he has more important things to do.

It's not so much that I'm unwilling to deal with it right now. Indeed, careful reading of my posts would suggest the opposite. Nor is it the case that I'm offended (and I apologise if I came across as such - I am not even remotely put out, honestly). It's just that there is no appropriate action that can take place in this thread, so I don't see how it can possibly be productive. As this board is not for private arguments, but rather for productive public discussion of forum problems, private messages seem like the best venue for what's actually going on.

Telling someone to make Wilmore miserable isn't a nice thing to say. 

I'm not a nice man.

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on February 12, 2012, 04:40:39 PM

I was gonna send him a PM asking him if he's drunk, but I changed my mind.

Thork, do you think I'm being unreasonable or anything? I don't understand why Wilmore is offended by my posts in this thread. Maybe they don't read the way they sound to me when I type them.

It's probably because he already agreed with you and said it needs to be addressed and you won't stop talking about it. You're trying to get an instant reaction, but he has more important things to do.

But that's not it at all, I'm not trying to get an instant reaction from Wilmore. Markjo asked questions, and I answered them. It's a discussion, why should I "stop talking about it"? The only instant reaction I was trying to get was Markjo's understanding of what I was talking about. I get the impression that he thinks devil's advocates aren't much different from the pretend FE trolls, or something. Or that I want him to switch to FE in the debates, and that isn't it either. Also, what more important things? This is a message board, not brain surgery, no one is asking for instant action.

SCG:
To me it sounds like you're having a discussion with markjo about his moderation decisions.
Not exactly something that belongs in this thread.

This thread was split from the stickied thread just so we could have this discussion. I don't see the point of starting another thread to talk about the same thing, do you? Maybe some adminy type could change the title... but I don't see the point in that either. This thread will die, so it doesn't really matter anymore. I got nothing else to say on the subject.

Also, Wilmore... I don't have a private argument with Markjo. OK? It's about the board not about some grudge I have against him.

So how's the Non-Technical To-Do List?