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There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.

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areyouguysserious

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There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« on: January 24, 2012, 06:20:19 PM »
"The Sun is a sphere. It has a diameter of 32 miles and is located approximately 3000 miles above the surface of the earth." (this is according to the flat earth wiki)

3000 miles is really really far. A disc that is 32 miles across is very very small, comparatively.

3000 miles is roughly the distance from New York to LA, so if you were to stand in New York with a clear and unobstructed line of site between you and LA, and there was a building that was 32 miles long, than you would be able to see it very clearly.

Right?

Right??

WRONG!!! Theres no way. The sheer distance involved would render any such object so miniscule that it would be impossible to detect with the human eye.

And yet we are expected to believe that the sun and moon are only 32 miles across yet 3000 miles away, and yet they can be clearly seen and they provide much light for us earthlings.

Baloney!!!
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Rushy

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2012, 06:24:01 PM »
This is the most terrible argument I have ever had the unfortunate circumstance of skimming over.
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areyouguysserious

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2012, 06:38:34 PM »
Is it really? So I guess you have no trouble seeing objects 3000 miles away with your superman vision?

Pray, enlighten me on the specifics as to why my argument is so "terrible".
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zarg

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2012, 06:58:47 PM »
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Around And About

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2012, 07:08:12 PM »
Quote from: Irushwithscvs on January 24, 2012, 06:24:01 PM
This is the most terrible argument I have ever had the unfortunate circumstance of skimming over.
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Quote from: New Earth on January 16, 2012, 12:37:41 AM
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areyouguysserious

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2012, 08:10:09 PM »
Quote from: zarg on January 24, 2012, 06:58:47 PM
Quote from: areyouguysserious on January 24, 2012, 06:20:19 PM
a building that was 32 miles long

wat

Forgive my example....but a theoretical building that is 32 miles long is alot more plausible than a 32 mile in diameter spotlight that glows on us from 3000 miles away.
Quote from: zarg on January 24, 2012, 06:58:47 PM
Quote from: areyouguysserious on January 24, 2012, 06:20:19 PM
a building that was 32 miles long

wat
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areyouguysserious

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2012, 08:21:48 PM »
I still havent heard why my argument is so terrible.
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markjo

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2012, 08:28:33 PM »
Quote from: areyouguysserious on January 24, 2012, 08:21:48 PM
I still havent heard why my argument is so terrible.

Have you actually done the math to see how big a 32 mile diameter sun would appear at a distance of 3000 miles and then compare that to the actual observed size of the sun?  The results may surprise you.
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areyouguysserious

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2012, 08:48:21 PM »
Im afraid i dont know the math to figure that out. What is the equation?
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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2012, 10:05:33 PM »
Quote from: areyouguysserious on January 24, 2012, 08:48:21 PM
Im afraid i dont know the math to figure that out. What is the equation?

I am no FE'er, but there are two parts to determining if you can or cannot see something at a distance

1.)size
2.)brightness

We can see galaxies that are billions of light-years away because they are extremely bright.  The same can be said for an FE sun.  it is extremely bright, and can be visible from extreme distances, even though it is relatively small.  Not to mention that a thirty two mile diameter object would be visible from 3000 miles away, even if it was not extremely bright, like the moon.

The real issues is that there is no known mechanism that could power such a small object for such extreme lengths of time.  But any FE'er will tell you that just because they do not know what the powers the sun doesn't mean that the earth is round, they just do not have enough money to conduct sufficient experiments.


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markjo

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2012, 06:24:19 AM »
Quote from: areyouguysserious on January 24, 2012, 08:48:21 PM
Im afraid i dont know the math to figure that out. What is the equation?

It's simple trigonometry.  I'm sure that you can figure it out, if you put your mind to it.
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AnonConda

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2012, 12:47:55 PM »
I'm a little rusty with my math, but by my calculations a round object 32 miles in diameter at 3000 miles would subtend an angle of about .611 degrees. The sun and moon are usually measured to subtend an angle of about .52 degrees.
Being off by a tenth of a degree doesn't sound like much, but the human eye (with clear 20/20 vision) can can discern a resolution angle of one arc minute (1/60 a degree). If there were two moons in the sky, one the normal size, and one the size predicted by flat earth numbers, you could literally see the difference.

But, hell... Cut the flat earth society some slack. It's not like they care about details.
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PizzaPlanet

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2012, 12:56:50 PM »
Quote from: AnonConda on January 25, 2012, 12:47:55 PM
I'm a little rusty with my math, but by my calculations a round object 32 miles in diameter at 3000 miles would subtend an angle of about .611 degrees. The sun and moon are usually measured to subtend an angle of about .52 degrees.
I'm afraid you've made a mistake somewhere in your calculations. The result should be very close to 0.52 degrees, maybe 0.53. Give me a moment, I'll write it out and scan the calculations.
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AnonConda

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2012, 01:06:18 PM »
Quote from: PizzaPlanet on January 25, 2012, 12:56:50 PM
Quote from: AnonConda on January 25, 2012, 12:47:55 PM
I'm a little rusty with my math, but by my calculations a round object 32 miles in diameter at 3000 miles would subtend an angle of about .611 degrees. The sun and moon are usually measured to subtend an angle of about .52 degrees.
I'm afraid you've made a mistake somewhere in your calculations. The result should be very close to 0.52 degrees, maybe 0.53. Give me a moment, I'll write it out and scan the calculations.
I would love to see it.
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PizzaPlanet

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2012, 01:17:26 PM »
Hey, what do you know, it does come out as about 0.61 degrees. Clearly the distance of the Sun of these dimensions from the Earth would have to be about 3500 miles for this to work. Sorry for causing unnecessary confusion.

Interestingly enough, when I did my first quick calculation (that made me say you're wrong in the first place), I made an elementary mistake that made then numbers just right. For a moment, I assumed we're talking about an equilateral triangle, so to get the unknown side, I divided 3000 (the height) by sqrt(3) and multiplied by 2. That gives us a side of 3464.1. Continuing with this mistake, I got the right numbers. I'm a bit stumped by my own stupidity here, but it seems like I wasn't the only one who made this mistake!

Thank you for showing this to me. I'll bring it up with the FAQ team soon.

EDIT: I'll re-write my calculations in a cleaner form and post them for review, just to make sure I'm not being a moron again.
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PizzaPlanet

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2012, 01:38:44 PM »
Okay, I've re-read this a thousand times and I'm pretty sure it's right. Please, could others have a look and confirm? If this is correct, welp, we need to let the 3000-miles-away-Sun proponents know, and I'll probably have to adjust the Wiki FAQ.

I would especially appreciate feedback from RE'ers, and proponents of the 32 mile Sun, but others are welcome to have a say too.

« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 01:40:15 PM by PizzaPlanet »
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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2012, 02:05:36 PM »
How do we know a = 32, again?
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zarg

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2012, 02:28:10 PM »
I agree, PP's calculation is completely backwards, starting with 32 miles as an initial given. The process is:

1. triangulate the distance to the sun
2. determine its size using the distance and apparent size
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Thork

Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2012, 02:34:09 PM »
The sun is 27 miles across if 3000 miles high. (Voliva)


Its 32 miles across if 700 miles high. (Robowtham).
http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za23.htm

I think most people here subscribe to Voliva. Certainly Tom Bishop and I both use Voliva's numbers.
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PizzaPlanet

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2012, 02:37:09 PM »
Quote from: Around And About on January 25, 2012, 02:05:36 PM
How do we know a = 32, again?
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=1324.msg566287#msg566287

Quote from: zarg on January 25, 2012, 02:28:10 PM
I agree, PP's calculation is completely backwards, starting with 32 miles as an initial given. The process is:

1. triangulate the distance to the sun
2. determine its size using the distance and apparent size
We're not determining the numbers anew. We are testing if the numbers from the FAQ make sense. We take two numbers from the FAQ as granted, and expect to obtain the third given. Since we did not get the third given, we've disproved the model. This will work for whichever two numbers we'll take of the three: distance, size, angular size.

Simultaneously, we're checking if AnonConda is right (which he almost certainly is):
Quote from: AnonConda on January 25, 2012, 12:47:55 PM
I'm a little rusty with my math, but by my calculations a round object 32 miles in diameter at 3000 miles would subtend an angle of about .611 degrees. The sun and moon are usually measured to subtend an angle of about .52 degrees.

Can I repeat my request to check the correctness of my calculations? We can tackle the mutual understanding of the logic behind it once that's done. It's just that I've made a very bad mistake right before writing this, so I want to make sure there aren't any others.

Quote from: Thork on January 25, 2012, 02:34:09 PM
The sun is 27 miles across if 3000 miles high. (Voliva)
This matches the size observable from the Earth. Perhaps that's what whoever wrote the old FAQ meant.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 03:00:11 PM by PizzaPlanet »
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zarg

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2012, 05:04:01 PM »
Quote from: PizzaPlanet on January 25, 2012, 02:37:09 PM
We're not determining the numbers anew. We are testing if the numbers from the FAQ make sense.

Ah I see. Aren't you reinventing the wheel though? We already know the FAQ is full of shit. The triangulation gives different results at different degrees, which means either a) the bottom of the triangle changes position (i.e. the Earth is not flat); or b) [insert this week's flavor of bendy light bullshit here].  Either way, it's already been established that the algorithm for determining the sun's distance (and by extension, size) is unreliable.
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Ageniusindisguise

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2012, 07:48:28 PM »
Quote from: areyouguysserious on January 24, 2012, 06:20:19 PM
3000 miles is roughly the distance from New York to LA, so if you were to stand in New York with a clear and unobstructed line of site between you and LA, and there was a building that was 32 miles long, than you would be able to see it very clearly.

Last night I went to walmart and bought these sick x100 eagle vision goggles. I only heard in fairy tales that the sun was a tiny yellow circle. BUT NOW I KNOW ITS TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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markjo

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2012, 09:15:13 PM »
Quote from: PizzaPlanet on January 25, 2012, 01:17:26 PM
Hey, what do you know, it does come out as about 0.61 degrees. Clearly the distance of the Sun of these dimensions from the Earth would have to be about 3500 miles for this to work. Sorry for causing unnecessary confusion.

Your mistake war really quite simple.  First of all, the sun being 3000 miles above the flat earth is not the same as the sun being 3000 miles away from the observer (unless you are directly below the sun).  Also, don't forget that the sun's image is being projected on to the upper layers of the atmoplane and atmospheric magnification will cause the sun to appear a consistent size regardless of the sun's elevation above the horizon right up to the point where perspective causes the sun to appear to sink below the horizon.
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AnonConda

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2012, 03:42:11 AM »
Quote from: markjo on January 25, 2012, 09:15:13 PM
Quote from: PizzaPlanet on January 25, 2012, 01:17:26 PM
Hey, what do you know, it does come out as about 0.61 degrees. Clearly the distance of the Sun of these dimensions from the Earth would have to be about 3500 miles for this to work. Sorry for causing unnecessary confusion.

Your mistake war really quite simple.  First of all, the sun being 3000 miles above the flat earth is not the same as the sun being 3000 miles away from the observer (unless you are directly below the sun).  Also, don't forget that the sun's image is being projected on to the upper layers of the atmoplane and atmospheric magnification will cause the sun to appear a consistent size regardless of the sun's elevation above the horizon right up to the point where perspective causes the sun to appear to sink below the horizon.
Index of refraction of air at sea level = 1.000293
Thats not enough to visibly bend light, let a lone magnify an image that much. On top of that, the atmosphere would have to be like a lens (bent), implying roundness. Care to tell me the radius of curvature of this magical atmosphere lens?
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PizzaPlanet

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2012, 10:53:35 AM »
Quote from: zarg on January 25, 2012, 05:04:01 PM
Ah I see. Aren't you reinventing the wheel though? We already know the FAQ is full of shit.
We've recently started a project to try and make it a bit less shit. It's a child of the Wiki project. Hopefully, sooner or later (likely later) we'll get some of the issues resolved and then replace the old FAQ.

Quote from: zarg on January 25, 2012, 05:04:01 PM
The triangulation gives different results at different degrees, which means either a) the bottom of the triangle changes position (i.e. the Earth is not flat); or b) [insert this week's flavor of bendy light bullshit here].  Either way, it's already been established that the algorithm for determining the sun's distance (and by extension, size) is unreliable.
Or c) markjo's reply, which is a pretty good point. I may have been too hasty in conceding with AnonConda's point.
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zarg

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2012, 03:37:12 PM »
Actually, Tom Bishop's nonsense about the sun changing apparent size doesn't help explain the results of the triangulation; quite the opposite, it makes them make even less sense. I suspect that's why markjo mentioned it in the first place. It's just another piece to add to the growing mound of self-contradictory claims that is FET. Good thing you don't believe in it.
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markjo

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2012, 04:02:41 PM »
Quote from: zarg on January 26, 2012, 03:37:12 PM
Actually, Tom Bishop's nonsense about the sun changing apparent size doesn't help explain the results of the triangulation; quite the opposite, it makes them make even less sense.

This is why you will never see Tom (or pretty much any other FE'er) try to create a scale model that includes the FE, sun, moon and any other celestial objects needed to demonstrate such basic observations as sunrise, sunset, moonrise, moonset, the phases of the moon, the sun's path as the seasons change and eclipses, despite numerous requests.  He knows that there is no way to create one that works.  In fact, it seems that the only way that FE can appear to work is to through as much obfuscation as possible.
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Inlandknights

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2012, 06:08:36 PM »
Does the FET mob presume the heat essential to life as we know it, radiates from the spot light? If so, what is the heat generated?
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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2012, 09:02:02 PM »
Quote from: Inlandknights on January 26, 2012, 06:08:36 PM
Does the FET mob presume the heat essential to life as we know it, radiates from the spot light? If so, what is the heat generated?

Yes they believe the sun heats the earth, no they have no clue what powers the sun.
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Inlandknights

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Re: There is no way the sun and moon are 3000 miles away.
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2012, 09:19:04 PM »
What heat does a spotlight give out 3 thousand mile away? How hot is the bulb, I guess i'm asking
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