NASA Wastes More Tax Dollars

  • 130 Replies
  • 19537 Views
*

Lord Wilmore

  • Vice President
  • Administrator
  • 12106
Re: NASA Wastes More Tax Dollars
« Reply #120 on: February 11, 2012, 06:41:54 PM »
So in conclusion, Tom was correct.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

*

zarg

  • 1181
  • Saudi Arabian inventor of Dr. Pepper
Re: NASA Wastes More Tax Dollars
« Reply #121 on: February 11, 2012, 06:42:23 PM »
Wilmore, the correction I did in this post assumes the worst case scenario, i.e. wide angle.

See this page: Canon SD800 IS Optics. Scroll down to Distortion. As you can see, it has 0.91% barrel distortion at wide angle.

The SD870 IS (which was used to take the photo I corrected) has even higher distortion at 1.1%. This is the standard test image, and this is the wide-angle test image. I based my correction on the latter.

As you can see, the wide-angle excuse cannot account for the curvature. Just to be perfectly clear: Assuming wide-angle was used, this is what it would have looked like without it.


So in conclusion, Tom was correct.

No. He utterly failed and then ran away.
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 41646
Re: NASA Wastes More Tax Dollars
« Reply #122 on: February 11, 2012, 06:52:07 PM »
So in conclusion, Tom was correct.

As Zarg just pointed out, distortion can be quantified.  Unless Tom is willing to do the math and show that the distortion shown matches the distortion expected by the optics, then saying that he was correct is unjustified.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

Lord Wilmore

  • Vice President
  • Administrator
  • 12106
Re: NASA Wastes More Tax Dollars
« Reply #123 on: February 11, 2012, 06:52:32 PM »
I see significantly less apparent "curvature" in that image than in those posted earlier. I think this sufficiently undermines the usefulness of the images in question.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

*

markjo

  • Content Nazi
  • The Elder Ones
  • 41646
Re: NASA Wastes More Tax Dollars
« Reply #124 on: February 11, 2012, 07:14:44 PM »
I suppose that depends on exactly which images you're referring to.  However, you should remember that barrel distortion is always the worst at the edges and the least at the center of the image.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

*

zarg

  • 1181
  • Saudi Arabian inventor of Dr. Pepper
Re: NASA Wastes More Tax Dollars
« Reply #125 on: February 11, 2012, 07:23:41 PM »
I see significantly less apparent "curvature" in that image than in those posted earlier. I think this sufficiently undermines the usefulness of the images in question.

What are you talking about? Here is the original image, and here it is with distortion reversed. How is that significantly less?

And even if there were a significant difference, how would that undermine anything? As long as the curvature in the photo exceeds curvature that can be attributed to lens distortion, the photo is valid proof of curvature.
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

*

Lord Wilmore

  • Vice President
  • Administrator
  • 12106
Re: NASA Wastes More Tax Dollars
« Reply #126 on: February 12, 2012, 07:49:06 AM »
Let's summarise:


1. zarg called Tom a liar for saying they had used a wide angle lense. It turns out they did use a wide angle lense, so zarg was wrong and Tom is not a liar. zarg has yet to apologise.


2. The RE'ers themselves posted evidence that these images are not reliable, and feature a significant degree of distortion.


Conclusion? Another victory for FE.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

?

squevil

  • Official Member
  • 3184
  • Im Telling On You
Re: NASA Wastes More Tax Dollars
« Reply #127 on: February 12, 2012, 09:33:31 AM »
Let's summarise:


1. zarg called Tom a liar for saying they had used a wide angle lense. It turns out they did use a wide angle lense, so zarg was wrong and Tom is not a liar. zarg has yet to apologise.


2. The RE'ers themselves posted evidence that these images are not reliable, and feature a significant degree of distortion.


Conclusion? Another victory for FE.

thats a bit childish isnt it? you have just been shown the image before and after. its not a fet win... zarg was mistaken and tom put the record strait. but still the image has curvature so in actual fact your back to square 1

*

zarg

  • 1181
  • Saudi Arabian inventor of Dr. Pepper
Re: NASA Wastes More Tax Dollars
« Reply #128 on: February 12, 2012, 09:57:57 AM »
It turns out they did use a wide angle lense

Whoa, slow down. It hasn't turned out that they used wide-angle. It could be either. You might have noticed that the zoom switches on many cameras are labelled "W" and "T", which stands for wide-angle and telephoto. We might assume that it was "zoomed out", i.e. in wide-angle mode, but we can't be sure.


zarg called Tom a liar for saying they had used a wide angle lense.

No, I called Tom a liar for saying that barrel distortion explains the curvature. I proved him wrong. Tom has yet to apologize.


The RE'ers themselves posted evidence that these images are not reliable, and feature a significant degree of distortion.

No, the distortion is not significant, and no, it does not make the images unreliable. Let me explain how I disproved Tom by way of analogy:

- Tom claims that a person is no more 3 feet tall.
- I measure the person, and they turn out to be 6 feet tall.
- Tom claims that the measurement is faulty because the person is wearing shoes.
- I measure the height of a pair of shoes identical to the one the person is wearing, and subtract it from their height.
- It's still much greater than 3 feet.
- Tom is therefore wrong.

This is what I did, except with curvature instead of height.
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.

*

Lord Wilmore

  • Vice President
  • Administrator
  • 12106
Re: NASA Wastes More Tax Dollars
« Reply #129 on: February 12, 2012, 03:37:52 PM »
Whoa, slow down. It hasn't turned out that they used wide-angle. It could be either. You might have noticed that the zoom switches on many cameras are labelled "W" and "T", which stands for wide-angle and telephoto. We might assume that it was "zoomed out", i.e. in wide-angle mode, but we can't be sure.


So the images are even more problematic. I see.


zarg called Tom a liar for saying they had used a wide angle lense.

No, I called Tom a liar for saying that barrel distortion explains the curvature. I proved him wrong. Tom has yet to apologize.


This is not true:


It's either a wide angle lens or barrel distortion.

Cut it out, you filthy liar.


Turns out it was a wide angle lens, which means Tom is not a "liar" and you were wrong to call him one. At this point you're the one being dishonest - it's quite clear what was or wasn't said. When you decide to discuss things like an adult, stop hypocritically accusing others of lying and apologise for doing so, perhaps we can have a meaningful debate. Until then, I don't see much point in talking to you.
"I want truth for truth's sake, not for the applaud or approval of men. I would not reject truth because it is unpopular, nor accept error because it is popular. I should rather be right and stand alone than run with the multitude and be wrong." - C.S. DeFord

*

zarg

  • 1181
  • Saudi Arabian inventor of Dr. Pepper
Re: NASA Wastes More Tax Dollars
« Reply #130 on: February 12, 2012, 04:01:22 PM »
Whoa, slow down. It hasn't turned out that they used wide-angle. It could be either. You might have noticed that the zoom switches on many cameras are labelled "W" and "T", which stands for wide-angle and telephoto. We might assume that it was "zoomed out", i.e. in wide-angle mode, but we can't be sure.

So the images are even more problematic. I see.

No. What part of this don't you understand:

Wilmore, the correction I did in this post assumes the worst case scenario, i.e. wide angle.

This means that, no matter what setting the camera was at, the actual horizon had to have been at the very least this much curved.


Turns out it was a wide angle lens, which means Tom is not a "liar" and you were wrong to call him one. At this point you're the one being dishonest

No, it didn't turn out that it was a wide-angle lens. I just finished explaining this. Saying something is true when you don't know whether it's true or not is lying. Tom was being dishonest, not I. He knows his barrel distortion excuse doesn't work, yet he continues to present it.


Until then, I don't see much point in talking to you.

Of course. Any excuse to avoid the facts I'm inconveniently presenting to you. You're the one who's acting childish. Instead of addressing the issue you're trying to win some insignificant victory over me calling Tom a liar. When you decide to discuss things like an adult, please explain the curvature in this photo.
Quote from: Cat Earth Theory
[Lord Wilmore's writings] are written the way a high schooler thinks an educated person should sound like.  The pathetic pseudo-academic writing can't hide the lack of any real substance.