The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread

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zarg

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Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #90 on: May 20, 2012, 12:54:09 PM »
The explanation with the least number of assumptions is the simplest explanation.

The ability to simplify complex processes through flippant wording doesn't reduce the number of assumptions required.

I don't understand -- why do you cling to this facade of scientific reasoning? It would be so much easier if you'd just be consistent and claim that Occam's Razor is as unreliable as you claim the rest of modern science's methods of finding truth are. You'll get no argument that OR isn't foolproof; just stop pretending you're using it when you're not.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #91 on: May 20, 2012, 09:45:11 PM »
Tom, you seriously need to update your copypasta library.  I've told you before that NASA never claimed to accelerate 100 tons straight up at 7 miles per second (which is not even a measure of acceleration).  If you want to trash talk NASA, then at least get your outrageous claims factually correct.

The third stage of the Saturn V exceeds 100 tons and is alleged to have been accelerated to 7 miles per second.

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Moon squirter

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Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #92 on: May 21, 2012, 03:45:15 AM »
Tom, you seriously need to update your copypasta library.  I've told you before that NASA never claimed to accelerate 100 tons straight up at 7 miles per second (which is not even a measure of acceleration).  If you want to trash talk NASA, then at least get your outrageous claims factually correct.

The third stage of the Saturn V exceeds 100 tons and is alleged to have been accelerated to 7 miles per second.

Luckily the air was thinner, gravity was less, stage 3 was already travelling at supersonic speeds and is wasn't travelling straight up. 

Apart from that, yes, you are correct.
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markjo

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Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #93 on: May 21, 2012, 05:26:24 AM »
Tom, you seriously need to update your copypasta library.  I've told you before that NASA never claimed to accelerate 100 tons straight up at 7 miles per second (which is not even a measure of acceleration).  If you want to trash talk NASA, then at least get your outrageous claims factually correct.

The third stage of the Saturn V exceeds 100 tons and is alleged to have been accelerated to 7 miles per second.

No rocket, including the Saturn V, ever achieves orbit by accelerating straight up to a speed of 7 miles per second.  If you have ever watched just about any space craft launch, then you should notice that it begins to arc over towards the horizontal almost immediately after clearing the launch tower.  By the time it achieves orbit, nearly all of it's acceleration is in the horizontal (tangent to the earth) direction.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #94 on: May 21, 2012, 08:44:41 AM »
It all sounds pretty extraordinary to me. Which is the simplest explanation; that NASA has these extraordinary super technologies, or that they do not?

Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #95 on: May 21, 2012, 08:52:32 AM »
It all sounds pretty extraordinary to me. Which is the simplest explanation; that NASA has these extraordinary super technologies, or that they do not?

Launching rockets is quite old know. You probably know that Von Braun who was responsible of the Apollo program was the man behind the V1 and the V2, almost 70 years ago.

What's extraordinary?
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Moon squirter

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Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #96 on: May 21, 2012, 09:08:51 AM »
It all sounds pretty extraordinary to me. Which is the simplest explanation; that NASA has these extraordinary super technologies, or that they do not? there is a massive water-tight global conspiracy that is decades old, involving at least hundreds of people across multiple countries, companies and technological fields.

I think that is what you are trying to say.
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markjo

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Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #97 on: May 21, 2012, 09:48:13 AM »
It all sounds pretty extraordinary to me.
Why does the progress of rocket technology sound extraordinary to you?  The V2 must have seemed like an extraordinary achievement when compared to Robert Goddard's first liquid propellant rockets.  Why shouldn't similar extraordinary developments in rocket technology be expected?

Which is the simplest explanation; that NASA has these extraordinary super technologies, or that they do not?
Well, seeing as NASA's rocket launches have been seen by countless witnesses over the past 50 years or so, I'd say that it's a pretty safe bet that at least a good number of these "extraordinary super technologies" must exist otherwise those "props", as you like to refer to them, wouldn't even get off the ground.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #98 on: May 21, 2012, 09:53:44 AM »
It all sounds pretty extraordinary to me. Which is the simplest explanation; that NASA has these extraordinary super technologies, or that they do not?

1.) There are two parts to Occam's razor, one being the simplest, the other being equal predictive power, which FET does not meet, so Occam's razor is not really applicable.

2.) Rocketry has been around long before NASA, and the V1 rocket is a prime example that large rockets can carry large payloads.  Unless you have some evidence that the Saturn V is impossible then  suggest you remain silent.

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markjo

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Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #99 on: May 21, 2012, 09:59:47 AM »
It all sounds pretty extraordinary to me. Which is the simplest explanation; that NASA has these extraordinary super technologies, or that they do not?

1.) There are two parts to Occam's razor, one being the simplest, the other being equal predictive power, which FET does not meet, so Occam's razor is not really applicable.

2.) Rocketry has been around long before NASA, and the V1 V2 rocket is a prime example that large rockets can carry large payloads.  Unless you have some evidence that the Saturn V is impossible then  suggest you remain silent.

Fixed for pedantic reasons.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #100 on: May 21, 2012, 10:01:43 AM »
It all sounds pretty extraordinary to me. Which is the simplest explanation; that NASA has these extraordinary super technologies, or that they do not?

1.) There are two parts to Occam's razor, one being the simplest, the other being equal predictive power, which FET does not meet, so Occam's razor is not really applicable.

2.) Rocketry has been around long before NASA, and the V1 V2 rocket is a prime example that large rockets can carry large payloads.  Unless you have some evidence that the Saturn V is impossible then  suggest you remain silent.

Fixed for pedantic reasons.

Ah yes thank you, I made entire V2 thread and yet mistakenly put V1, scumbag brain at it again.

Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #101 on: May 21, 2012, 10:04:04 AM »
And let's not forget the old and reliable Soyouz rockets.
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Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #102 on: May 21, 2012, 11:46:11 AM »
It all sounds pretty extraordinary to me. Which is the simplest explanation; that NASA has these extraordinary super technologies, or that they do not?

Aside from the fact that you make a number of unwieldy assumptions yourself, your comparison is bogus, and you phrase the question in such a way that it will always produce the answer you desire.  You're not comparing the "likelihood" of real NASA vs.  fake NASA.  You're simply asking, "which is simpler, that [something complex] occurred, or that [something complex] did not occur?"  Obviously, if we're asking "which is simpler?" we're always going to conclude that [something complex] did not occur.  I could ask that question about any number of things of which I have no direct experience, but which are sufficiently complex that I will always be forced to conclude that they do no exist.

The true comparison, without making a bunch of assumptions about what it means for something to be extraordinary, is something like this: "is it more likely that NASA is being honest about space flight, or is it more likely that they are lying?"  When viewed this way, we can bring all kinds of things from our direct, personal experience to bear on the question, such as our experiences, lying, getting caught lying, keeping secrets, etc.  Viewed any other way, you have to start resolving your own views of the legitimacy/probability of space flight before you can make any progress answering the question.  In other words, you're starting your analysis from the conclusion you want.

With my rephrasing, we can begin to ask questions about the nature of these probabilities (how probable is it that rockets work as designed?  how probable is it that the conspiracy hasn't been unraveled?).  And, we can do so without making assumptions about these probabilities in advance of our inquiry.

Just from a cursory glance at my own experiences in life, I think I can assign some very rough values for a few relevant questions:
The probability that no one in the history of the conspiracy will ever confess or go public: Low
The probability that the mathematics of rocket engineering is inconsistent/wrong/etc.: Low
The probability that no third-party (like a journalist) would ever uncover any inconsistency and decide to investigate: Low
The probability that NASA isn't constantly audited and investigated in the status quo: Nil
The probability that NASA's budget could be siphoned off by individuals to get rich without detection: Nil
The probability that NASA could continuously concoct a vast data set (like Hubble data) that is not only completely consistent, but also yields new and novel insights into our universe that were never anticipated: Nil.

Since one can trace back through history all of the mathematical and mechanical insights that lead to rockets, one should agree that it's more likely that NASA is telling the truth about space flight.
Also, the people on your websites are specifically framing their claims, not to learn the truth of the matter, but because they want to "debunk" Apollo Hoax claims --

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #103 on: May 21, 2012, 03:43:36 PM »
It all sounds pretty extraordinary to me. Which is the simplest explanation; that NASA has these extraordinary super technologies, or that they do not?

Launching rockets is quite old know. You probably know that Von Braun who was responsible of the Apollo program was the man behind the V1 and the V2, almost 70 years ago.

What's extraordinary?

I don't remember Hitler claiming that his rockets went to the moon. The evidence that that the V2 existed as claimed was empirically demonstrated to the 1944 population of London.

If NASA sent the people of London to the moon on the Saturn V, perhaps that would count as some empirical evidence of the Saturn V's abilities.

It all sounds pretty extraordinary to me.
Why does the progress of rocket technology sound extraordinary to you?  The V2 must have seemed like an extraordinary achievement when compared to Robert Goddard's first liquid propellant rockets.  Why shouldn't similar extraordinary developments in rocket technology be expected?

The public doesn't have access to these mysterious super technologies. NASA can claim to have invented a warp-drive and petition Congress to give them a bigger budget to explore the universe. As NASA does not go under peer review, and none of its activites are checked, no one would be the wiser.

Quote from: markjo
Well, seeing as NASA's rocket launches have been seen by countless witnesses over the past 50 years or so, I'd say that it's a pretty safe bet that at least a good number of these "extraordinary super technologies" must exist otherwise those "props", as you like to refer to them, wouldn't even get off the ground.

The public didn't see the Saturn V go into earth orbit, or travel to the moon. They just saw it go upwards until it disappeared from sight.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #104 on: May 21, 2012, 04:29:29 PM »
Aside from the fact that you make a number of unwieldy assumptions yourself, your comparison is bogus, and you phrase the question in such a way that it will always produce the answer you desire.  You're not comparing the "likelihood" of real NASA vs.  fake NASA.  You're simply asking, "which is simpler, that [something complex] occurred, or that [something complex] did not occur?"  Obviously, if we're asking "which is simpler?" we're always going to conclude that [something complex] did not occur.

Incorrect.

If we ask "What's the simplest explanation, that race cars exist or that they do not exist?", the simplest explanation is that race cars exist, because the public has access to race car technology, can drive in race cars, and can go to any race car rally and see a race car perform as claimed.

If we ask "What's the simplest explanation, that North Korea invented a Rail Gun that can rain tungsten rods down on Washington DC, or is the simplest explanation that they did not?", the simplest explanation is that they did not.

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The probability that no one in the history of the conspiracy will ever confess or go public: Low

You forgot about Thomas Baron.

Thomas Baron wrote a scathing 500 page report on NASA’s fraudulence and testified about it in front of a Congressional investigation. Baron and his wife and daughter were dead 7 days later! Not surprisingly, Baron’s report also went missing as well and has never turned up.

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The probability that the mathematics of rocket engineering is inconsistent/wrong/etc.: Low

Why would the math need to be wrong? The assumptions are wrong. Earth orbit does not exist.

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The probability that no third-party (like a journalist) would ever uncover any inconsistency and decide to investigate: Low

You forgot about the inconsistencies shown on this website.

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The probability that NASA isn't constantly audited and investigated in the status quo: Nil

NASA failed its last financial audit from the GAO. No one seems to know where the money went.

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The probability that NASA's budget could be siphoned off by individuals to get rich without detection: Nil

See above. One of the few audits NASA has endured shows that NASA has a major problem with keeping track of where the money is going.

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The probability that NASA could continuously concoct a vast data set (like Hubble data) that is not only completely consistent, but also yields new and novel insights into our universe that were never anticipated: Nil.

The Hubble may exist as a telescope on a high altitude airplane like the Sofia, or hung from a high altitude dirigible at the edge of space like the Blast Telescope, both of which are NASA affiliated.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 04:53:31 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #105 on: May 21, 2012, 05:08:19 PM »
You forgot about Thomas Baron.

Thomas Baron wrote a scathing 500 page report on NASA’s fraudulence and testified about it in front of a Congressional investigation. Baron and his wife and daughter were dead 7 days later! Not surprisingly, Baron’s report also went missing as well and has never turned up.

Not to detract from the current pace of the conversation - but if the 500 page report was lost - how are you sure that it contained a scathing report on NASA's fraudulence?

I have found nothing to indicate that it was anything more then safety concerns.

Here is some reading to help fill your gaps.
http://www.clavius.org/baron.html

Also - Baron worked for NAA - and as a contractor, by your own assertions, would have been completely oblivious to any skullduggery on the part of NASA.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 05:09:58 PM by Kendrick »

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Robbyj

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Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #106 on: May 21, 2012, 05:39:52 PM »
Also - Baron worked for NAA - and as a contractor, by your own assertions, would have been completely oblivious to any skullduggery on the part of NASA.

He was a safety inspector for a contractor that 'built' equipment for the Apollo program.  He would have been well aware.
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Saddam Hussein

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Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #107 on: May 21, 2012, 05:51:35 PM »
I think this exchange proves that Occam's Razor can be twisted to support either side.  We ought to just stop trying to use it.

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #108 on: May 21, 2012, 06:47:14 PM »
I think this exchange proves that Occam's Razor can be twisted to support either side.  We ought to just stop trying to use it.

No it cannot.  The two sides must have equal predictive power, which they do not.

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markjo

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Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #109 on: May 21, 2012, 06:54:53 PM »
I don't remember Hitler claiming that his rockets went to the moon. The evidence that that the V2 existed as claimed was empirically demonstrated to the 1944 population of London.

Hitler had lots of secret projects going on.  Some believe that a moon base was among them.

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The public doesn't have access to these mysterious super technologies. NASA can claim to have invented a warp-drive and petition Congress to give them a bigger budget to explore the universe. As NASA does not go under peer review, and none of its activites are checked, no one would be the wiser.

What "mysterious super technologies" are you referring to?  Last I checked, NASA hasn't claimed to invent a warp drive, so please don't bring up irrelevant claims that NASA never made.

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The public didn't see the Saturn V go into earth orbit, or travel to the moon. They just saw it go upwards until it disappeared from sight.

And the fact that they saw a 363 foot tall rocket go upwards until it disappeared from sight suggests that at least some of these "extraordinary super technologies" must be real.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 06:57:24 PM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Saddam Hussein

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Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #110 on: May 21, 2012, 06:57:51 PM »
I think this exchange proves that Occam's Razor can be twisted to support either side.  We ought to just stop trying to use it.

No it cannot.  The two sides must have equal predictive power, which they do not.

And yet it is.

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #111 on: May 21, 2012, 07:05:35 PM »
I think this exchange proves that Occam's Razor can be twisted to support either side.  We ought to just stop trying to use it.

No it cannot.  The two sides must have equal predictive power, which they do not.

And yet it is.

It is not used by both sides, it is used by one side and misunderstood by another.  Screaming that I am riding a bike while walking next to it is not the same as actually riding a bike.

Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #112 on: May 21, 2012, 07:09:01 PM »
Incorrect.

If we ask "What's the simplest explanation, that race cars exist or that they do not exist?", the simplest explanation is that race cars exist, because the public has access to race car technology, can drive in race cars, and can go to any race car rally and see a race car perform as claimed.

If we ask "What's the simplest explanation, that North Korea invented a Rail Gun that can rain tungsten rods down on Washington DC, or is the simplest explanation that they did not?", the simplest explanation is that they did not.

You're still asking the wrong kind of question.  You're just asking, "Does this seem likely to you?"  It requires us to make too many assumptions, like, "Things that appear unlikely are unlikely."  The way you word the question affects how it can be answered, and your examples illustrate this point.  Your first question has an easy answer because we all have an experience of terrestrial transportation.  We've all been in a car, even if we haven't been in a race car.  The object is directly within our experience.

Your second question illustrates how problematic this phrasing is because its object is something of which we have no direct experience.  The question doesn't even allow us to consider the evidence, it just asks, "Doesn't that sound too complicated to be true?"  We'll always answer "yes" to these kinds of questions because we rarely have any direct, relevant experience of the matter.

Thus, your phrasing always leads us to conclude that things within our current sense experience are true, and anything which isn't must be unlikely, or false.

However, if cut right to the heart of the matter and ask, "What is the simpler explanation for our observations, that NASA is deceiving the public about space flight, or that NASA is not deceiving the public about space flight?"  Now we can bring all kinds of common experiences to bear on the question because we're avoiding the topic we know little about: aerospace engineering.  We're solely focused on our direct experiences of lying, getting caught lying, keeping secrets, ambition, etc.

Think of the North Korea example: "What's the simpler explanation, that North Korea is lying about its rail gun, or that it's being honest about its rail gun?"  Without knowing anything about rail guns, I can think about my personal experiences with human behavior and conclude, for a variety of reasons, that North Korea is probably lying about its rail gun.   

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You forgot about Thomas Baron.

Thomas Baron wrote a scathing 500 page report on NASA’s fraudulence and testified about it in front of a Congressional investigation. Baron and his wife and daughter were dead 7 days later! Not surprisingly, Baron’s report also went missing as well and has never turned up.

1.  Your own wiki isn't exactly solid evidence of your claims.  It asserts that Baron believed that the space program was being faked.  I cannot find a single piece of evidence to support this claim.  Not one.  I've now read both his testimony to congress and the reports he leaked to the press, and I can't find a single mention of fraud.

2.  Baron's original report was leveled almost exclusively against North American Aviation, not NASA.  Check it out yourself.  Interestingly, the report is hosted on NASA's website.  It seems odd that they are hosting a document over which they once murdered someone...

3.  Baron's report was about safety concerns, not a fake Apollo program.  So was his congressional testimony.  In fact, in his testimony, he explicitly states that he believes NASA does have the capacity to reach and land on the moon.

4.  You're assuming that his missing report would have been bad for NASA.  His first report barely mentions NASA.  I don't get why the second one would be different.

5.  Baron and his family were hit by a train in their car.  I don't even get how you could murder someone in such a manner.

6.  If he was killed to keep him silent, why wait until after he had already testified to congress?

I can keep going if you like, but I'll stop for now to point out that, at best, of the thousands of people who have worked for and with NASA for a half-century, you've found a single person who alleges fraud.  And he didn't even allege fraud. 

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Why would the math need to be wrong? The assumptions are wrong. Earth orbit does not exist.

If the assumptions are wrong, I fail to see how we could derive mathematics from them that is convincing to all of the mathematicians and scientists who study them every single day for the last century or so.  I also fail to see how it could make so many verifiable predictions, but that's another debate, and I doubt we'll resolve this issue here.

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You forgot about the inconsistencies shown on this website.

I have yet to see them, although that may be a function of my very recent arrival.  I would imagine that if there were any validity to these inconsistencies, it would've gone beyond the realm of youtube videos.  The fact that a bunch of non-experts on an internet forum can't come up with an explanation for these "inconsistencies" isn't very shocking, and it certainly isn't evidence of a conspiracy. 

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NASA failed its last financial audit from the GAO. No one seems to know where the money went.

Exactly.  No one knows where the money went.  That's a far cry from, "It was spent as hush money."  When money goes missing, I imagine that fraud is probably the first thing an audit looks for.  I can't imagine that the possibility of financial fraud was not considered by the GAO.  You'll notice that none of those audits report fraud of any kind.  You'll notice these reports also record specific details on the origins of these financial discrepancies.  They come from things like cost overruns, changes in the costs of materials, accounting errors, etc.

My guess is that you're going to suggest that bad bookkeeping is the means by which the conspirators are stealing the money.  This makes little sense given how much attention it brings on NASA.  If you're trying to hide a huge secret about NASA, it hardly makes sense to constantly have congress investigating you and imposing new financial regulations.  You don't want PricewaterhouseCoopers, or Ernst and Young, or Arthur Andersen looking through your books.  They all have.  None of them allege fraud.  Weird.

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One of the few audits NASA has endured shows that NASA has a major problem with keeping track of where the money is going.

There have been plenty of audits.  Since 1999, NASA has been audited by PwC, E&Y, Andersen, and the GAO.  they've probably been audited and investigated many, many times since the 1960s, including by Walter Mondale and the congressional investigations that proceeded the Apollo 1 accident.

Either way, you're still only demonstrating that NASA "has a major problem keeping track of where the money is going."  That's not proof of anything except inefficiency and bad bookkeeping. 

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The Hubble may exist as a telescope on a high altitude airplane like the Sofia, or hung from a high altitude dirigible at the edge of space like the Blast Telescope, both of which are NASA affiliated.
No, it really can't. 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 07:10:53 PM by garygreen »
Also, the people on your websites are specifically framing their claims, not to learn the truth of the matter, but because they want to "debunk" Apollo Hoax claims --

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #113 on: May 21, 2012, 07:55:58 PM »
Not to detract from the current pace of the conversation - but if the 500 page report was lost - how are you sure that it contained a scathing report on NASA's fraudulence?

I have found nothing to indicate that it was anything more then safety concerns.

Here is some reading to help fill your gaps.
http://www.clavius.org/baron.html

Also - Baron worked for NAA - and as a contractor, by your own assertions, would have been completely oblivious to any skullduggery on the part of NASA.

NAA is a temp agency for the government, just like Grumman and Computer Sciences Corporation. They work on government bases under the direct supervision and instruction of government managers. Anything NAA temps do, they do because government managers told them to.

Thomas Baron explains of the compartmentalized nature, where engineers and technicians are constantly shifted around from one job to another, without a full scope of what they're doing. He also explains that NAA/NASA is building things of very poor quality, perhaps more for show than anything.


Quote from: markjo
Quote
The public doesn't have access to these mysterious super technologies. NASA can claim to have invented a warp-drive and petition Congress to give them a bigger budget to explore the universe. As NASA does not go under peer review, and none of its activites are checked, no one would be the wiser.

What "mysterious super technologies" are you referring to?  Last I checked, NASA hasn't claimed to invent a warp drive, so please don't bring up irrelevant claims that NASA never made.

The mysterious super technologies I'm referring to are rockets that can reach orbit and space ships which can explore the solar system. Rockets that can reach earth orbit are strictly controlled by the military, for obvious reasons, and hence mysterious to civilian science.

Quote from: markjo
Quote
The public didn't see the Saturn V go into earth orbit, or travel to the moon. They just saw it go upwards until it disappeared from sight.

And the fact that they saw a 363 foot tall rocket go upwards until it disappeared from sight suggests that at least some of these "extraordinary super technologies" must be real.

Nazi rocket scientists who built the V2 were forced to build the Saturn V for NASA. The V2 was also able to rise upwards into the air until it disappeared from sight. Some model rockets can also rise upwards until they disappear from sight. Watching a rocket launch does not suggest that earth orbit or a trip to the moon is possible.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2012, 08:41:22 PM by Tom Bishop »

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markjo

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Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #114 on: May 21, 2012, 08:17:41 PM »
The mysterious super technologies I'm referring to are rockets that can reach orbit and space ships. Rockets that can reach earth orbit are strictly controlled by the military, for obvious reasons.

What is so mysterious about rocket technology?  The basics are actually quite simple.  The only hard parts are scaling up the technology and man-rating it.

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Nazi rocket scientists who built the V2 were forced to build the Saturn V for NASA. The V2 was also able to rise upwards into the air until it disappeared from sight. Some model rockets can also rise upwards until they disappear from sight. Watching a rocket launch does not suggest that earth orbit or a trip to the moon is possible.

First of all, Nazi rocket scientists didn't build the Saturn V.  They designed it and several contractors built it.

Secondly, right now I'm not so much arguing that the Saturn V went into orbit (actually, only a relatively small part of it did).  I'm just saying that the technology to launch a 363 foot tall "model rocket" to a great altitude must exist because countless witnesses watched it happen.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #115 on: May 21, 2012, 08:37:06 PM »
Quote from: garygreen
You're still asking the wrong kind of question.  You're just asking, "Does this seem likely to you?"  It requires us to make too many assumptions, like, "Things that appear unlikely are unlikely."  The way you word the question affects how it can be answered, and your examples illustrate this point.  Your first question has an easy answer because we all have an experience of terrestrial transportation.  We've all been in a car, even if we haven't been in a race car.  The object is directly within our experience.

Great. I'm glad you agree.

Quote from: garygreen
Your second question illustrates how problematic this phrasing is because its object is something of which we have no direct experience.  The question doesn't even allow us to consider the evidence, it just asks, "Doesn't that sound too complicated to be true?"  We'll always answer "yes" to these kinds of questions because we rarely have any direct, relevant experience of the matter.

Since you agree that the answer is yes, then great, we're still on track.

Quote from: garygreen
However, if cut right to the heart of the matter and ask, "What is the simpler explanation for our observations, that NASA is deceiving the public about space flight, or that NASA is not deceiving the public about space flight?"

It doesn't matter if you phrase it that way. NASA deceiving us is a simpler explanation than space ships exploring the solar system and robots which explore the martian surface.

Quote from: garygreen
Think of the North Korea example: "What's the simpler explanation, that North Korea is lying about its rail gun, or that it's being honest about its rail gun?"  Without knowing anything about rail guns, I can think about my personal experiences with human behavior and conclude, for a variety of reasons, that North Korea is probably lying about its rail gun.

Correct. The simplest explanation is that NASA is lying to us.

Quote from: garygreen
1.  Your own wiki isn't exactly solid evidence of your claims.  It asserts that Baron believed that the space program was being faked.  I cannot find a single piece of evidence to support this claim.  Not one.  I've now read both his testimony to congress and the reports he leaked to the press, and I can't find a single mention of fraud.

Baron claims that everything is run in a compartmentalized manner where people are shifted around from job to job, and where the quality control is extremely poor, and that things seem to be built for show more than anything. Baron says that a real space program wouldn't be this way, which is why he's complaining to Congress about it.

Quote from: garygreen
2.  Baron's original report was leveled almost exclusively against North American Aviation, not NASA.  Check it out yourself.  Interestingly, the report is hosted on NASA's website.  It seems odd that they are hosting a document over which they once murdered someone...

This isn't a report. That's only a two page brief he wrote. His 500 page anti-NASA Congressional report went missing.

NASA is hosting it (assuming that this is even an unedited version) because they are trying to discredit Baron. At the top of the page they call him a bunch of names.

Quote from: garygreen
3.  Baron's report was about safety concerns, not a fake Apollo program.  So was his congressional testimony.  In fact, in his testimony, he explicitly states that he believes NASA does have the capacity to reach and land on the moon.

Sure, my little nephew has the capacity to become a billionaire and build a sprawling underground city. But I don't see what relevance that has, when his tunneling abilities are presently limited to digging in a sandbox.

Quote from: garygreen
4.  You're assuming that his missing report would have been bad for NASA.  His first report barely mentions NASA.  I don't get why the second one would be different.

500 pages explains a bit more of NASA's fraudulence than a 2 page brief.

Quote from: garygreen
5.  Baron and his family were hit by a train in their car.  I don't even get how you could murder someone in such a manner.

It's a rather cliche mafia tactic. They were killed with baseball bats or knives and their bodies were put into their car and positioned on train tracks so that their bodies would be mutilated beyond recognition once the train hit.

Quote from: garygreen
If the assumptions are wrong, I fail to see how we could derive mathematics from them that is convincing to all of the mathematicians and scientists who study them every single day for the last century or so.

Well, the exact math used for orbital flight isn't even published or publicly available. I don't see what math they would study.

Quote from: garygreen
I also fail to see how it could make so many verifiable predictions, but that's another debate, and I doubt we'll resolve this issue here.

What verifiable predictions of the Saturn V have been made?

Quote from: garygreen
I have yet to see them, although that may be a function of my very recent arrival.  I would imagine that if there were any validity to these inconsistencies, it would've gone beyond the realm of youtube videos.  The fact that a bunch of non-experts on an internet forum can't come up with an explanation for these "inconsistencies" isn't very shocking, and it certainly isn't evidence of a conspiracy.

The fact that there are things which cannot be explained absolutely is evidence of a conspiracy.

Quote from: garygreen
My guess is that you're going to suggest that bad bookkeeping is the means by which the conspirators are stealing the money.  This makes little sense given how much attention it brings on NASA.  If you're trying to hide a huge secret about NASA, it hardly makes sense to constantly have congress investigating you and imposing new financial regulations.  You don't want PricewaterhouseCoopers, or Ernst and Young, or Arthur Andersen looking through your books.

That's right, you don't. NASA decided to not have any books at all and play the incompetence card, and they're alleged to be the most meticulous and advanced scientific organization in human history.

Quote from: garygreen
There have been plenty of audits.  Since 1999, NASA has been audited by PwC, E&Y, Andersen, and the GAO.  they've probably been audited and investigated many, many times since the 1960s, including by Walter Mondale and the congressional investigations that proceeded the Apollo 1 accident.

Provide the source of these other financial audits, please.

Quote from: garygreen
Quote
The Hubble may exist as a telescope on a high altitude airplane like the Sofia, or hung from a high altitude dirigible at the edge of space like the Blast Telescope, both of which are NASA affiliated.
No, it really can't.

The fact that these things exist demonstrates otherwise.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 08:55:27 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Moon squirter

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Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #116 on: May 21, 2012, 11:30:07 PM »
Quote from: garygreen
You're still asking the wrong kind of question.  You're just asking, "Does this seem likely to you?"  It requires us to make too many assumptions, like, "Things that appear unlikely are unlikely."  The way you word the question affects how it can be answered, and your examples illustrate this point.  Your first question has an easy answer because we all have an experience of terrestrial transportation.  We've all been in a car, even if we haven't been in a race car.  The object is directly within our experience.

Great. I'm glad you agree.

Quote from: garygreen
Your second question illustrates how problematic this phrasing is because its object is something of which we have no direct experience.  The question doesn't even allow us to consider the evidence, it just asks, "Doesn't that sound too complicated to be true?"  We'll always answer "yes" to these kinds of questions because we rarely have any direct, relevant experience of the matter.

Since you agree that the answer is yes, then great, we're still on track.

Quote from: garygreen
However, if cut right to the heart of the matter and ask, "What is the simpler explanation for our observations, that NASA is deceiving the public about space flight, or that NASA is not deceiving the public about space flight?"

It doesn't matter if you phrase it that way. NASA deceiving us is a simpler explanation than space ships exploring the solar system and robots which explore the martian surface.

Quote from: garygreen
Think of the North Korea example: "What's the simpler explanation, that North Korea is lying about its rail gun, or that it's being honest about its rail gun?"  Without knowing anything about rail guns, I can think about my personal experiences with human behavior and conclude, for a variety of reasons, that North Korea is probably lying about its rail gun.

Correct. The simplest explanation is that NASA is lying to us.

Quote from: garygreen
1.  Your own wiki isn't exactly solid evidence of your claims.  It asserts that Baron believed that the space program was being faked.  I cannot find a single piece of evidence to support this claim.  Not one.  I've now read both his testimony to congress and the reports he leaked to the press, and I can't find a single mention of fraud.

Baron claims that everything is run in a compartmentalized manner where people are shifter around from job to job, and where the quality control is extremely poor, and that things seem to be built for show more than anything. Baron says that a real space program wouldn't be this way, which is why he's complaining to Congress about it.

Quote from: garygreen
2.  Baron's original report was leveled almost exclusively against North American Aviation, not NASA.  Check it out yourself.  Interestingly, the report is hosted on NASA's website.  It seems odd that they are hosting a document over which they once murdered someone...

This isn't a report. That's only a two page brief he wrote. His 500 page anti-NASA Congressional report went missing.

NASA is hosting it (assuming that this is even an unedited version) because they are trying to discredit Baron. At the top of the page they call him a bunch of names.

Quote from: garygreen
3.  Baron's report was about safety concerns, not a fake Apollo program.  So was his congressional testimony.  In fact, in his testimony, he explicitly states that he believes NASA does have the capacity to reach and land on the moon.

Sure, my little nephew has the capacity to become a billionaire and build a sprawling underground city. But I don't see what relevance that has, when his tunneling abilities are presently limited to digging in a sandbox.

Quote from: garygreen
4.  You're assuming that his missing report would have been bad for NASA.  His first report barely mentions NASA.  I don't get why the second one would be different.

500 pages explains a bit more of NASA's fraudulence than a 2 page brief.

Quote from: garygreen
5.  Baron and his family were hit by a train in their car.  I don't even get how you could murder someone in such a manner.

It's a rather cliche mafia tactic. They were killed with baseball bats or knives and their bodies were put into their car and positioned on train tracks so that their bodies would be mutilated beyond recognition once the train hit.

Quote from: garygreen
If the assumptions are wrong, I fail to see how we could derive mathematics from them that is convincing to all of the mathematicians and scientists who study them every single day for the last century or so.

Well, the exact math used for orbital flight isn't even published or publicly available. I don't see what math they would study.

Quote from: garygreen
I also fail to see how it could make so many verifiable predictions, but that's another debate, and I doubt we'll resolve this issue here.

What verifiable predictions of the Saturn V have been made?

Quote from: garygreen
I have yet to see them, although that may be a function of my very recent arrival.  I would imagine that if there were any validity to these inconsistencies, it would've gone beyond the realm of youtube videos.  The fact that a bunch of non-experts on an internet forum can't come up with an explanation for these "inconsistencies" isn't very shocking, and it certainly isn't evidence of a conspiracy.

The fact that there are things which cannot be explained absolutely is evidence of a conspiracy.

Quote from: garygreen
My guess is that you're going to suggest that bad bookkeeping is the means by which the conspirators are stealing the money.  This makes little sense given how much attention it brings on NASA.  If you're trying to hide a huge secret about NASA, it hardly makes sense to constantly have congress investigating you and imposing new financial regulations.  You don't want PricewaterhouseCoopers, or Ernst and Young, or Arthur Andersen looking through your books.

That's right, you don't. NASA decided to not have any books at all and play the incompetence card, and they're alleged to be the most meticulous and advanced scientific organization in human history.

Quote from: garygreen
There have been plenty of audits.  Since 1999, NASA has been audited by PwC, E&Y, Andersen, and the GAO.  they've probably been audited and investigated many, many times since the 1960s, including by Walter Mondale and the congressional investigations that proceeded the Apollo 1 accident.

Provide the source of these other financial audits, please.

Quote from: garygreen
Quote
The Hubble may exist as a telescope on a high altitude airplane like the Sofia, or hung from a high altitude dirigible at the edge of space like the Blast Telescope, both of which are NASA affiliated.
No, it really can't.

The fact that these things exist demonstrates otherwise.

Multiple Appeals To Ignorance:

We cannot disprove that NASA is lying to us, therefore evidence they are lying.
We cannot disprove that Baron was murdered, therefore evidence he was murdered.

In the name of reason, I hope you never sit on a jury.
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

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Robbyj

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Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #117 on: May 22, 2012, 12:29:41 AM »
Multiple Appeals To Ignorance:

We cannot disprove that NASA is lying to us, therefore evidence they are lying.
We cannot disprove that Baron was murdered, therefore evidence he was murdered.

Incorrect.

Saying 'I believe x, but I cannot prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt' is not an appeal to ignorance.

If anything, this is an appeal to ignorance...

If NASA were lying we would have found out about it by now.
We have not found out they are lying.
Therefore, NASA is not lying.
Why justify an illegitimate attack with a legitimate response?

Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #118 on: May 22, 2012, 12:33:31 AM »
Multiple Appeals To Ignorance:

We cannot disprove that NASA is lying to us, therefore evidence they are lying.
We cannot disprove that Baron was murdered, therefore evidence he was murdered.

Incorrect.

Saying 'I believe x, but I cannot prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt' is not an appeal to ignorance.

If anything, this is an appeal to ignorance...

If NASA were lying we would have found out about it by now.
We have not found out they are lying.
Therefore, NASA is not lying.

Didn't you detect a pinch of iroy?
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

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Moon squirter

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Re: The NASA/Other Space Agencies Appreciation thread
« Reply #119 on: May 22, 2012, 02:16:16 AM »
Multiple Appeals To Ignorance:

We cannot disprove that NASA is lying to us, therefore evidence they are lying.
We cannot disprove that Baron was murdered, therefore evidence he was murdered.

Incorrect.

Saying 'I believe x, but I cannot prove it beyond the shadow of a doubt' is not an appeal to ignorance.

If anything, this is an appeal to ignorance...

If NASA were lying we would have found out about it by now.
We have not found out they are lying.
Therefore, NASA is not lying.

No, that is not what I am saying.  I'm saying that an example of ATI is "There is no evidence against x. Therefore, x"

So, Tom is saying (in other words) "there no evidences disproving fakery/murder, therefore there was probably some fakery/murder.

Tom does not provide any strong evidence for fakery/murder, but in Tom's mind this is irrelevant because there is not evidence that categorically disproves it, therefore it is significant and probably occurred.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 02:23:56 AM by Moon squirter »
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.