Tonight's Lunar Eclipse is "Impossible"

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Tonight's Lunar Eclipse is "Impossible"
« on: December 09, 2011, 12:14:31 AM »
I encourage our members in the "zone", basically the western North America, to observe the eclipse around sunrise (for PST). While every lunar eclipse provides some viewers the opportunity to see an eclipse while the Sun is still up, many can see this effect this time. A reference for the laymen: http://news.yahoo.com/saturdays-lunar-eclipse-impossible-sight-210802859.html
. For the more educated on astronomy: http://www.space.com/13748-total-lunar-eclipse-moon-infographic.html

For those who like to laugh at Robotham, you'll find his lame logic starting at: http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za29.htm#page_131. I encourage those with an open mind to find the flaw in his "shadows bend down" argument as an exercise. You should be able to find it easily. +1 for the first to post it cogently here.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

Re: Tonight's Lunar Eclipse is "Impossible"
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2011, 09:47:56 AM »
wont be to impossible when it happens.
this is sure to solidify that the earth is a giant disc.

thank you for the heads up on observing light that bends tomorrow AM.

Re: Tonight's Lunar Eclipse is "Impossible"
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2011, 10:12:24 AM »
wont be to impossible when it happens.
Really? I wonder how you failed to notice that I put "impossible" in quotes. Of course, you might also want to proof your posts better.
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this is sure to solidify that the earth is a giant disc.
Really? I wonder how you reached this amazing deduction.
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thank you for the heads up on observing light that bends tomorrow AM.
Really? You can observe light bending any time, as refraction occurs many places in the Universe. Did you have a concern that it doesn't?

Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Rushy

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Re: Tonight's Lunar Eclipse is "Impossible"
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2011, 11:43:09 AM »
He isn't talking about refraction or reflection. He is talking about quite literally, bending light.

Re: Tonight's Lunar Eclipse is "Impossible"
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2011, 05:12:21 PM »
He isn't talking about refraction or reflection. He is talking about quite literally, bending light.
If you mean that he thinks that he'll see EA working in the opposite direction that EAT predicts, I'm fine with the evidence showing him wrong.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Rushy

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Re: Tonight's Lunar Eclipse is "Impossible"
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2011, 05:13:48 PM »
He isn't talking about refraction or reflection. He is talking about quite literally, bending light.
If you mean that he thinks that he'll see EA working in the opposite direction that EAT predicts, I'm fine with the evidence showing him wrong.

I would guess that is what he meant but I can't assume too much. iwanttobelieve's answers are always a riddle.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Tonight's Lunar Eclipse is "Impossible"
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2011, 06:10:40 PM »
In an RE Lunar Eclipse the Sun, Earth, and Moon align in a straight line as so:

Sun --- Earth ---- Moon

It should be impossible for someone to see both the sun and the moon in the sky at the same time. The sun is on the day side of the earth while the moon is on the night side of the earth, directly opposite, at Noon and Midnight.

Yet, refraction is powerful enough that both the sun and moon could appear in the sky at the same time!
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 06:12:24 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Tonight's Lunar Eclipse is "Impossible"
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2011, 06:34:18 PM »
In an RE lunar eclipse, you cannot view both the sun and the moon at the same time.
not if you are "under" the moon relatively. the earth blocks the suns light that would ordinarily be reflected by the moon.

the reason that you can sometimes see both the earth and moon in certain areas at certain times, is because the moon is revolving around the earth. hence solar eclipses.
sun---moon---earth

how does a lunar eclipse work in a flat earth system, by the way?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 06:35:51 PM by luciusverenus »

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Tausami

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Re: Tonight's Lunar Eclipse is "Impossible"
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2011, 07:09:19 PM »
Holy shit it's ClockTower
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 07:10:54 PM by Tausami »

Re: Tonight's Lunar Eclipse is "Impossible"
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2011, 07:52:13 PM »
In an RE Lunar Eclipse the Sun, Earth, and Moon align in a straight line as so:

Sun --- Earth ---- Moon

It should be impossible for someone to see both the sun and the moon in the sky at the same time. The sun is on the day side of the earth while the moon is on the night side of the earth, directly opposite, at Noon and Midnight.

Yet, refraction is powerful enough that both the sun and moon could appear in the sky at the same time!
Typical of a closed mind, Tom didn't read the referenced article http://news.yahoo.com/saturdays-lunar-eclipse-impossible-sight-210802859.html where it refutes his ill-advised contention:

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Seeing the impossible
But wait!  How is this possible?  When we have a lunar eclipse, the sun, Earth and moon are in a geometrically straight line in space, with the Earth in the middle. So if the sun is above the horizon, the moon must be below the horizon and completely out of sight (or vice versa).
And indeed, during a lunar eclipse, the sun and moon are exactly 180 degrees apart in the sky; so in a perfect alignment like this (a "syzygy") such an observation would seem impossible.
But it is atmospheric refraction that makes a selenelion possible.
Atmospheric refraction causes astronomical objects to appear higher in the sky than they are in reality.
For example: when you see the sun sitting on the horizon, it is not there really. It's actually below the edge of the horizon, but our atmosphere acts like a lens and bends the sun's image just above the horizon, allowing us to see it.
This effect actually lengthens the amount of daylight for several minutes or more each day; we end up seeing the sun for a few minutes in the morning before it has actually risen and for a few extra minutes in the evening after it actually already has set.
The same holds true with the moon, as well.
As a consequence of this atmospheric trick, for many localities there will be an unusual chance to observe a senelion firsthand with Saturday morning's shadowy event. There will be a short window of roughly 1-to-6 minutes (depending on your location) when you may be able to simultaneously spot the sun rising in the east-southeast and the eclipsed full moon setting in the west-northwest.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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markjo

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Re: Tonight's Lunar Eclipse is "Impossible"
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2011, 07:54:23 PM »
In an RE Lunar Eclipse the Sun, Earth, and Moon align in a straight line as so:

Sun --- Earth ---- Moon

It should be impossible for someone to see both the sun and the moon in the sky at the same time. The sun is on the day side of the earth while the moon is on the night side of the earth, directly opposite, at Noon and Midnight.

Yet, refraction is powerful enough that both the sun and moon could appear in the sky at the same time!

When have the sun and fully eclipsed moon ever been documented to be more than one degree above the horizon at the same time?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Tonight's Lunar Eclipse is "Impossible"
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2011, 09:11:30 PM »
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Typical of a closed mind, Tom didn't read the referenced article http://news.yahoo.com/saturdays-lunar-eclipse-impossible-sight-210802859.html where it refutes his ill-advised contention:

I did read the news article, which is why I emphasized amazement that refraction could do such a thing.

Re: Tonight's Lunar Eclipse is "Impossible"
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2011, 09:37:40 PM »
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Typical of a closed mind, Tom didn't read the referenced article http://news.yahoo.com/saturdays-lunar-eclipse-impossible-sight-210802859.html where it refutes his ill-advised contention:

I did read the news article, which is why I emphasized amazement that refraction could do such a thing.
With your amazing optics, Tom, like when you can see beach balls across Monterey Bay, exactly what would you find amazing? Do you have an argument for your concern, or will we just hear crickets again? I don't even understand the argument that you couldn't see both the Moon and the Sun during a lunar eclipse--even without refraction--or a RE. Can you make your case?

The articles make my case for me. RET does a great job of explaining this event, and people much smarter than I have reviewed this science for its accuracy.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

Re: Tonight's Lunar Eclipse is "Impossible"
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2011, 12:15:45 AM »
In an RE Lunar Eclipse the Sun, Earth, and Moon align in a straight line as so:

Sun --- Earth ---- Moon

It should be impossible for someone to see both the sun and the moon in the sky at the same time. The sun is on the day side of the earth while the moon is on the night side of the earth, directly opposite, at Noon and Midnight.

Yet, refraction is powerful enough that both the sun and moon could appear in the sky at the same time!
This argument fails horribly. The RE is not flat. As a counter-example, demonstrating that Tom has math to do before making his outlandish claim, here is an experiment:

1) Get two small objects. Paper clips will do fine.
2) Go to an open, relatively flat area at least 1 foot in radius.
3) Stand in the middle of the area.
4) At one foot to the north from your position, place one paper clip on the "floor".
5) At one foot to the south from your position, place one paper clip on the "floor".
6) Now "north paper clip", you, and "south paper clip" "align in a straight line" (sic).
7) Note the you can see both paper clips from your position.

Clearly Tom can't argue that an observer on the middle object and above the line between the three aligned objects can never see both of the first and last objects.

QED
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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Verrine

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Re: Tonight's Lunar Eclipse is "Impossible"
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2011, 01:10:54 AM »
Yay! I knew you'd come back  :D

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Tonight's Lunar Eclipse is "Impossible"
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2011, 09:44:50 AM »
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This argument fails horribly. The RE is not flat.

I didn't say the RE was flat. What are you mumbling about? ???

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As a counter-example, demonstrating that Tom has math to do before making his outlandish claim, here is an experiment:

1) Get two small objects. Paper clips will do fine.
2) Go to an open, relatively flat area at least 1 foot in radius.
3) Stand in the middle of the area.
4) At one foot to the north from your position, place one paper clip on the "floor".
5) At one foot to the south from your position, place one paper clip on the "floor".
6) Now "north paper clip", you, and "south paper clip" "align in a straight line" (sic).
7) Note the you can see both paper clips from your position.

Clearly Tom can't argue that an observer on the middle object and above the line between the three aligned objects can never see both of the first and last objects.

QED

That's not a valid example at all.

First of all: Scale

Secondly, the "floor" in your example is flat. Your counter-example is a Flat Earth demonstration.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 09:48:06 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Tonight's Lunar Eclipse is "Impossible"
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2011, 10:05:21 AM »
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This argument fails horribly. The RE is not flat.

I didn't say the RE was flat. What are you mumbling about? ???
Look at your argument. It requires either math to show that you can't see over the Earth in both direction or that it's flat. Please do make your arguments on your own.
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Quote
As a counter-example, demonstrating that Tom has math to do before making his outlandish claim, here is an experiment:

1) Get two small objects. Paper clips will do fine.
2) Go to an open, relatively flat area at least 1 foot in radius.
3) Stand in the middle of the area.
4) At one foot to the north from your position, place one paper clip on the "floor".
5) At one foot to the south from your position, place one paper clip on the "floor".
6) Now "north paper clip", you, and "south paper clip" "align in a straight line" (sic).
7) Note the you can see both paper clips from your position.

Clearly Tom can't argue that an observer on the middle object and above the line between the three aligned objects can never see both of the first and last objects.

QED

That's not a valid example at all.

First of all: Scale

Secondly, the "floor" in your example is flat. Your counter-example is a Flat Earth demonstration.
That's right on about scale. You need to show the math that means the Sun--Earth--Moon scale results in what you claim. Again, do your own homework.

That's wrong about your second point. The floor represents only the imaginary plane by which all three objects are bisected. It has nothing to do with the shape of the Earth.
Keep it serious, Thork. You can troll, but don't be so open. We have standards

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EnglshGentleman

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Re: Tonight's Lunar Eclipse is "Impossible"
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2011, 11:17:08 AM »
Yay! I knew you'd come back  :D

They My alts always come back!

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Roundy the Truthinessist

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Re: Tonight's Lunar Eclipse is "Impossible"
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2011, 04:27:59 PM »
Please reconsider.
Where did you educate the biology, in toulet?