Stupid Conspiracy

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #60 on: December 06, 2011, 10:40:35 PM »
You asked for a world-wide network of navigational towers and I showed you that for the most part they already existed.

LORAN doesn't exist in the middle of the Pacific ocean, yet I can still use my GPS... curiouser and curiouser

If you've been reading along in this thread you would have noted that the British have a system which covers many of the world's major shipping routes.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 10:43:03 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #61 on: December 06, 2011, 10:47:03 PM »
You asked for a world-wide network of navigational towers and I showed you that for the most part they already existed.

LORAN doesn't exist in the middle of the Pacific ocean, yet I can still use my GPS... curiouser and curiouser

If you've been reading along in this thread you would have noted that the British have a system which covers many of the world's major shipping routes.

Why would my American GPS use British LORAN?  ???
You, sir, can't comprehend the idea of bottoms.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #62 on: December 06, 2011, 10:48:12 PM »
Why would my American GPS use British LORAN?  ???

They would use standard protocols so their positioning systems would still work when they travel into each other's coverage areas.

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Moon squirter

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #63 on: December 06, 2011, 11:40:17 PM »
GPS requires a clear view of the sky, and works on mountainous land and in valleys (I live in one).  LORAN is dependant on a clear view of the horizon, surely? (as far a Tom is concerned)
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #64 on: December 07, 2011, 12:30:51 AM »
GPS requires a clear view of the sky, and works on mountainous land and in valleys (I live in one).  LORAN is dependant on a clear view of the horizon, surely? (as far a Tom is concerned)

Some RF signals are claimed to follow the surface of the earth into crevices and over mountains.

http://electriciantraining.tpub.com/14182/css/14182_76.htm

Also See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface_wave#Radio_propagation
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 12:41:30 AM by Tom Bishop »

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The Knowledge

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #65 on: December 07, 2011, 05:16:14 AM »
I'd like to see Bishop address the satellite dish engineer issue, as I've said. I'd like to see him address point 1a about the accessory space agencies. I'd like to see him address the point about Antarctic residents. I am, however, pleased with his assertion that hundreds of astronauts are in on the conspiracy, as every person who needs to be added makes it less and less likely.
Watermelon, Rhubarb Rhubarb, no one believes the Earth is Flat, Peas and Carrots,  walla.

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markjo

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #66 on: December 07, 2011, 06:23:55 AM »
Quote from: markjo
Referring to the pre-shuttle era astronauts, I would agree.  However, during the shuttle era, you can pretty much divide the astronauts into flight crew (pilot & commander) and mission specialists.  Of the flight crew, again, you're probably right.  However, of the mission specialists, the majority (if not vast majority) are civilian scientists or civilian technicians.

I have neither the time or interest to divide them up like that. But anyone can plainly see on that page if they click around randomly that majority of astronauts are military.

If you choose not to do the proper research to back up your wild allegations, then I suppose that you should rethink your "burden of proof" wiki page.


Why would my American GPS use British LORAN?  ???

They would use standard protocols so their positioning systems would still work when they travel into each other's coverage areas.

Tom, GPS standard protocols are in the public domain.  Anyone with the technical know how and proper equipment can easily tell if those protocols are being used by satellites or by towers in the middle of the ocean.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #67 on: December 07, 2011, 08:46:28 AM »
If people would just stop responding to this moron Tom he'd go away. He's just a troll who likes to argue and he doesn't even believe in what he's arguing for.
The FAQ needs updating to reflect the falsehood of the FAQ.

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Rushy

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #68 on: December 07, 2011, 10:21:05 AM »
Tom has been here for years. He doesn't go away.

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The Knowledge

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #69 on: December 07, 2011, 12:46:14 PM »
He's just a troll who likes to argue and he doesn't even believe in what he's arguing for.
Inb4chickenguy.
Watermelon, Rhubarb Rhubarb, no one believes the Earth is Flat, Peas and Carrots,  walla.

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #70 on: December 07, 2011, 03:19:21 PM »
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"Grumman NASA had begun pondering the possibility of a lunar-landing project in 1960 and assigned Mr. Gavin [a Grumman temp contractor] to a group doing preliminary work on a module [at NASA]. When Grumman got the contract in 1962, he was put in charge of a team [at NASA] that included Tom Kelly, the chief design engineer ."

I fixed that quote for you.

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So Grumman told Mr. Gavin, a NASA executive, that he should help Grumman with the development of the module?

Grumman didn't tell Mr. Gavin to do anything. NASA did. NASA gives the orders. Grumman is a temp agency. The author of the article is clearly as deluded as you as far as what government contractors actually do. The Lunar Lander wasn't built in a facility owned by Grumman, it was built on a secured government research base.

Grumman Corp has no say or management in the design of the Lunar Lander. They don't have research bases. They're just headhunters like Manpower or Volt.

Source: Many years of experience working for contractors

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2.) I looked at the hoax page, i couldnt find anything regarding Gavin, but, why should i have to prove he was not a conspirator, is that being asked to prove a negative?  Or do you not have specific evidence against Gavin?

The specific evidence against Gavin is that he was a manager of NASA, which is a sham space organization.

Obviously if NASA is a hoax then Gavin is a conspirator. I provided evidence that NASA is a hoax. Ergo Gavin is a conspirator.

I hope that wasn't too difficult for you.

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3.)  Tom there is no evidence that the military is continuing to use these towers, please post some like i have asked for multiple times.  i dont care if its feesible, only if it true.  I should not have to prove the military is not using them, thats proving a negative.  You say they are using them, show some proof.

I didn't claim to have proof that the military is still operating the towers. I'm not in the military.

You may as well ask me to prove that there are people in New York operating a blender at this very moment in the privacy of their own homes. I can't prove that. What's important is that they have blenders and can use them at any time.

You asked for a world-wide network of navigational towers and I showed you that for the most part they already exist.

That was a quote from the New York Times, why did you just deface it? 

Tom I'mm going to take a stab in the dark that you did not work for Grumman in the 1960's.

You said Originally that Grumman Execs would not be aware of the project.

I gave you Gavin.

I understand how your experience with contractors went, trust me, you have explained it enough.  I keep showing you quotes that contradict what you believe happened at the Grumman corporation.  Yet you have failed to explain why it would be impossible for Grumman in the 1960s to have different business practices than contractors of today.  Can you supply any proof whatsoever beyond your belief that you have a god like knowledge of how every government project ever conducted by Grumman for NASA has gone?  Can you show NASA paying Gavin directly since according to you he did not work for Grumman until after the Lander?  Because the Article i posted directly contradicts what you say.  Prove that Gavin was a NASA mannager during lander construction ( I have evidence that supports he worked for Grumman).  Prove that the lander was built on a government facility, because i have evidence that suggest otherwise.


And i was not talking about New York Tom, i was talking about Zimbabwe.  GPS works there, and the us army cannot roam freely building power plants and GPS towers in Zimbabwe without anyone noticing.  I asked you why the US military would be okay with using Towers when its not run by NASA.  It may coordinate with NASA, but NASA managers do not have direct control over any branch or portion of the military.  Someone would question NASA why the satellites were not working, and why they needed to build towers in the Congo. 

« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 03:23:02 PM by OrbisNonSufficit »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #71 on: December 07, 2011, 05:09:48 PM »
Quote
quote author=markjo link=topic=52029.msg1276632#msg1276632 date=1323267835]
I have neither the time or interest to divide them up like that. But anyone can plainly see on that page if they click around randomly that majority of astronauts are military.

If you choose not to do the proper research to back up your wild allegations, then I suppose that you should rethink your "burden of proof" wiki page.

It's fairly easy to click on 10 astronauts at random and see that the majority are military. My claim stands.

You're the one who keeps inserting unnecessary conditionals like "well, it doesn't apply to the mission specialists in the pre-shuttle days."

My claim stands despite your conditionals. The majority of astronauts are military.

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Tom, GPS standard protocols are in the public domain.  Anyone with the technical know how and proper equipment can easily tell if those protocols are being used by satellites or by towers in the middle of the ocean.

There aren't many people with the "technical know how" to identify the source of a signal as coming from the sky or the ground.

It's not as if many people are questioning the source of GPS signals or investigating such things.

You RE'ers keep saying things like "well someone would have noticed" when the subject matter is so obscure that not 1 out of 10,000 regular everyday people would think to question it. How many people turn on their GPS and think "are these signals really coming from space?"
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 05:11:29 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #72 on: December 07, 2011, 05:28:02 PM »
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That was a quote from the New York Times, why did you just deface it?

I corrected it, not defaced it.

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Tom I'mm going to take a stab in the dark that you did not work for Grumman in the 1960's.

I don't believe I claimed that.

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You said Originally that Grumman Execs would not be aware of the project.

I gave you Gavin.

This particular Grumman Exec is a special case, as he is a former manager of NASA, and would therefore know the ins and outs of NASA projects.

Typically the executives and managers at the head-hunting company don't really know what their employees are doing for their clients.

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I understand how your experience with contractors went, trust me, you have explained it enough.  I keep showing you quotes that contradict what you believe happened at the Grumman corporation.  Yet you have failed to explain why it would be impossible for Grumman in the 1960s to have different business practices than contractors of today.  Can you supply any proof whatsoever beyond your belief that you have a god like knowledge of how every government project ever conducted by Grumman for NASA has gone?
Can you show NASA paying Gavin directly since according to you he did not work for Grumman until after the Lander?  Because the Article i posted directly contradicts what you say.  Prove that Gavin was a NASA mannager during lander construction ( I have evidence that supports he worked for Grumman).  Prove that the lander was built on a government facility, because i have evidence that suggest otherwise.

Can you show NASA paying Gavin directly since according to you he did not work for Grumman until after the Lander?  Because the Article i posted directly contradicts what you say.  Prove that Gavin was a NASA mannager during lander construction ( I have evidence that supports he worked for Grumman).  Prove that the lander was built on a government facility, because i have evidence that suggest otherwise.

I know for a fact how government contractors work. If you want proof just apply for a government contracting job. You will see that they're little more than headhunters.

The job posting ads say things like"You'll be working for the Naval Air Command." They're hiring you out to the client, sitting back doing nothing, and taking a slice of your check every two weeks. That's exactly how it works.

Look up where the lander was built. It was built in a secured government facility, not a Grumman owned facility.

When you contract for a client you operate on their rules, on their terms, under their conditions.

Gavin was simultaneously NASA Director of the Lunar Lander project and a Grumman employee. He was working for NASA as a Grumman contractor. He wasn't an executive with the Grumman Corporation during Apollo, he was a NASA executive. To Grumman he was a temp they were hiring out.

He later became a Grumman Executive, but he wasn't one during Apollo.

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And i was not talking about New York Tom, i was talking about Zimbabwe.  GPS works there, and the us army cannot roam freely building power plants and GPS towers in Zimbabwe without anyone noticing.  I asked you why the US military would be okay with using Towers when its not run by NASA.  It may coordinate with NASA, but NASA managers do not have direct control over any branch or portion of the military.  Someone would question NASA why the satellites were not working, and why they needed to build towers in the Congo.

If the British can give coverage to the middle of the ocean along most major shipping routes without needing the device connected a power plant, I'm sure the US can figure something out for the middle of the Congo.

Also, you forgot about stratellites. The military already has clearance to fly over much of Africa. A network of stratellites could easily be deployed.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 06:10:11 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #73 on: December 07, 2011, 06:32:12 PM »
Stratellites have not yet been proven to exist. Not only that, but the logistics of refueling and maintaining hundreds of thousands of them would be impractical at the very least.
You, sir, can't comprehend the idea of bottoms.

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #74 on: December 07, 2011, 06:56:24 PM »
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I corrected it, not defaced it.

Corrected based on what?  You have yet to cite a single source that says Gavin worked as a NASA manager during the 60s and that he was not a Grumman executive at the time.

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I don't believe I claimed that.

Then how do you know that their business practices have not changed?  Again, where is your source?  You can not expect me to accept what you say on your word, when you believe, and i quote "The people there are more concerned with spearing zebras for dinner, knitting loincloths, and coming to terms with a permanent body oder. They are not interested in studying alternative world models." (in reference to countries along the equator)

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This particular Grumman Exec is a special case, as he is a former manager of NASA, and would therefore know the ins and outs of NASA projects.

Typically the executives and managers at the head-hunting company don't really know what their employees are doing for their clients.

Again, where is your source that this is true for all other government contracts during the 60s? I for one can tell you this was not the case for Collins radio, and it seems unlikely for many of the other private contracts. 

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He later became a Grumman Executive, but he wasn't one during Apollo.

"Vice President Joseph Gavin" - 1966
http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4009/v4p1c.htm

Where are you getting this info regarding Gavin, because you seriously need to let me know at this point.  There should be no reason for our info to conflict this much this often.  Every article i have read says he was a Grumman executive during the 60s, hell this one says vice president of Grumman!

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Also, you forgot about stratellites. The military already has clearance to fly over much of Africa. A network of stratellites could easily be deployed.

The issue tom is not if its possible, which with enough funding it would be, its why the Airforce would accept NASA's explanation that GPS doesn't work in Africa.   NASA is not a military organization, the managers are not in direct control of any military units.  At best they advice and consult Officers of a military unit.  I'm asking why the air force would be like, yeah sure, GPS doesnt work in africa, lets go build some GPS towers to add to a network the coast guard claims to no longer use.  Then those officers would have to go to their higher ups and ask for an engineering unit to build towers, which costs money, or they would have to have constant airplanes flying over africa at all times.  Both of which the officers who give the orders for will question the motives behind doing so if GPS should provide Global coverage.  The military knows what its spending its money on and why its spending its money on it, it would not accept that GPS doesnt work in africa without towers, when it should work everywhere.  perhaps 20 years ago, but Global coverage via solely satellites was achieved years ago, wouldn't the military be wondering why NASA still advised them to maintain towers?

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Look up where the lander was built. It was built in a secured government facility, not a Grumman owned facility.

I tried to look up where the LM were produced, but besides Grumman's web site there are not many sources.  The best one that i could find mentions that it was produced in Grumman's private facility in plant 5.
"Though production of the Lunar Module was confined to the „clean rooms" in Plant 5 at Bethpage"
http://www.anft.net/f-14/grumman-gmp.htm

]That last one has to sting a little.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 07:27:21 PM by OrbisNonSufficit »

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markjo

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #75 on: December 07, 2011, 07:13:27 PM »
Quote
quote author=markjo link=topic=52029.msg1276632#msg1276632 date=1323267835]
I have neither the time or interest to divide them up like that. But anyone can plainly see on that page if they click around randomly that majority of astronauts are military.

If you choose not to do the proper research to back up your wild allegations, then I suppose that you should rethink your "burden of proof" wiki page.

It's fairly easy to click on 10 astronauts at random and see that the majority are military. My claim stands.

You're the one who keeps inserting unnecessary conditionals like "well, it doesn't apply to the mission specialists in the pre-shuttle days."

My claim stands despite your conditionals. The majority of astronauts are military.

I checked most of the bios in the A section of the page that you linked and about half were civilian scientists.  My claim that most mission specialists are civilians stands. 

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There aren't many people with the "technical know how" to identify the source of a signal as coming from the sky or the ground.

Just about anyone with a directional antenna can tell if a radio signal comes from the sky or the ground.  In fact, there is even a sport built around that fact.

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It's not as if many people are questioning the source of GPS signals or investigating such things.

Well, you seem to be questioning the source of GPS signals but aren't doing much investigating.  I suppose that you're half right.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #76 on: December 08, 2011, 08:25:35 AM »
I checked most of the bios in the A section of the page that you linked and about half were civilian scientists.  My claim that most mission specialists are civilians stands.
 

Half of the NASA astronauts in the A section are not civilians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_space_travelers_by_name

• Joseph M. Acaba - Military
• Loren Acton  - Civilian
• James Adamson - Military
• Thomas Akers - Military
• Edwin Buzz Aldrin - Military
• Andrew M. Allen - Military
• Joseph P. Allen - Civilian
• Scott Altman - Military
• William Anders - Military
• Clayton Anderson - Civilian
• Michael P. Anderson – Military
• Dominic A. Antonelli - Military
• Jerome Apt - Civilian
• Lee Archambault - Military
• Neil Armstrong - Military
• Richard R. Arnold - Military
• Jeffrey Ashby - Military

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #77 on: December 08, 2011, 08:47:20 AM »
Quote from: OrbisNonSufficit
Corrected based on what?  You have yet to cite a single source that says Gavin worked as a NASA manager during the 60s and that he was not a Grumman executive at the time.

It was corrected based on truth.

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Then how do you know that their business practices have not changed?  Again, where is your source?  You can not expect me to accept what you say on your word, when you believe, and i quote "The people there are more concerned with spearing zebras for dinner, knitting loincloths, and coming to terms with a permanent body oder. They are not interested in studying alternative world models." (in reference to countries along the equator)

I know their business practices because I've worked for government contractors.

The government controls its secret and top secret projects (yes, the Lunar Lander and Apollo design and schematics are classified) from top to bottom, they don't give free reign to a company to do and design how they want with mystery employees in an unsecured facility. Rocket and space research is critical to the government. They don't want that stuff in the wrong hands. The idea that Grumman could do whatever they want wherever they want is ridiculous.

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Again, where is your source that this is true for all other government contracts during the 60s? I for one can tell you this was not the case for Collins radio, and it seems unlikely for many of the other private contracts.

Were the Collins radio technologies classified like space and rocket technologies, or was the government ordering technology the public already had access to? If it's publicly accessible technology the government would just order it.

Also, a walkee-talkee manufacturer doesn't need to be "in on it" if the government buys and uses those walkee-talkees to commit fraudulent acts.

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He later became a Grumman Executive, but he wasn't one during Apollo.

"Vice President Joseph Gavin" - 1966
http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4009/v4p1c.htm

Yes, Gavin would be listed as "Vice President" on a NASA.gov page. He was a NASA executive at the time of Apollo.

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Where are you getting this info regarding Gavin, because you seriously need to let me know at this point.  There should be no reason for our info to conflict this much this often.  Every article i have read says he was a Grumman executive during the 60s, hell this one says vice president of Grumman!

I haven't seen any articles stating that he was a Grumman executive at the time of Apollo. How could he be an NASA executive working on NASA projects and a executive of the Grumman headhunting company at the same time?

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Also, you forgot about stratellites. The military already has clearance to fly over much of Africa. A network of stratellites could easily be deployed.

The issue tom is not if its possible, which with enough funding it would be, its why the Airforce would accept NASA's explanation that GPS doesn't work in Africa.   NASA is not a military organization, the managers are not in direct control of any military units. 

NASA is a military organization. NASA was originally named the US Army Ballistic Missile Arsenal.

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At best they advice and consult Officers of a military unit.  I'm asking why the air force would be like, yeah sure, GPS doesnt work in africa, lets go build some GPS towers to add to a network the coast guard claims to no longer use.

You don't question your orders in the military.

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Then those officers would have to go to their higher ups and ask for an engineering unit to build towers, which costs money, or they would have to have constant airplanes flying over africa at all times.  Both of which the officers who give the orders for will question the motives behind doing so if GPS should provide Global coverage.  The military knows what its spending its money on and why its spending its money on it, it would not accept that GPS doesnt work in africa without towers, when it should work everywhere.  perhaps 20 years ago, but Global coverage via solely satellites was achieved years ago, wouldn't the military be wondering why NASA still advised them to maintain towers?

No, the people in the military wouldn't be wondering. Military personnel follow orders to the letter and that's it.

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I tried to look up where the LM were produced, but besides Grumman's web site there are not many sources.  The best one that i could find mentions that it was produced in Grumman's private facility in plant 5.
"Though production of the Lunar Module was confined to the „clean rooms" in Plant 5 at Bethpage"
http://www.anft.net/f-14/grumman-gmp.htm

That last one has to sting a little.

What's the name of that facility? It seems to be decommissioned now, but it looks like it was a former airfield. I also read references of NAVY planes being developed there. I'm betting it was a secured military research base which was owned and secured by the military but occupied by mainly Grumman contractors. The government wouldn't put a NAVY airfield in private hands.

It likely was a government research base filled with government contractors, surrounded by military personnel with guns, just like all other government research bases.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 09:07:14 AM by Tom Bishop »

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The Knowledge

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #78 on: December 08, 2011, 08:49:26 AM »
Tom, if you're not going to contribute to the theme of the thread, then STFO.
So what if the astronauts come from the military? Their background is irrelevant to the fact that all astronauts would need to be paid off by the conspiracy, so would the military, the point being that the conspiracy bloats up to a massive unsustainable size when you start adding all the people who need to be "in" on it.
Tom, why don't you comment on the accessory space agencies? Why don'y ou comment on all the people refueling the startellites? Why don't you comment on all the members of the military who aren't astronausts? Why don't you comment on the satellite dish engineers? Why don't you comment on the Antarctic researchers?
Stop derailing the thread by talking crap about NASA and stick to the topic.
Watermelon, Rhubarb Rhubarb, no one believes the Earth is Flat, Peas and Carrots,  walla.

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markjo

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #79 on: December 08, 2011, 11:17:55 AM »
I checked most of the bios in the A section of the page that you linked and about half were civilian scientists.  My claim that most mission specialists are civilians stands.
 

Half of the NASA astronauts in the A section are not civilians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_space_travelers_by_name

• Joseph M. Acaba - Military
• Loren Acton  - Civilian
• James Adamson - Military
• Thomas Akers - Military
• Edwin Buzz Aldrin - Military
• Andrew M. Allen - Military
• Joseph P. Allen - Civilian
• Scott Altman - Military
• William Anders - Military
• Clayton Anderson - Civilian
• Michael P. Anderson – Military
• Dominic A. Antonelli - Military
• Jerome Apt - Civilian
• Lee Archambault - Military
• Neil Armstrong - Military
• Richard R. Arnold - Military
• Jeffrey Ashby - Military

Since you insist that NASA runs every other space agency, here are the ones that you skipped over:
Viktor Mikhailovich Afanasyev - Military
Toyohiro Akiyama - Civilian (Journalist)
Vladimir Aksyonov - Civilian
Sultan bin Salman bin Abdul-Aziz Al Saud - Military
Aleksandr Panayotov Aleksandrov - Military
Aleksandr Pavlovich Aleksandrov - Civilian
Anousheh Ansari - Civilian (tourist)
Anatoly Artsebarsky -  Military
Yury Artyukhin - Military
Oleg Atkov - Civilain
Toktar Aubakirov - Military
Sergei Avdeyev - Civilian

OK, so out of the 29 'A's, 10 are civilian.  Granted, less than half but far more than the 10% that you contend.  Even 4 of 17 civilian American astronauts contradicts you 90% military claim.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Mizuki

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #80 on: December 08, 2011, 11:28:24 AM »
Just out of interest, can any of you people who believe that the U.S. went to the moon, explain why the lunar lander, shown here in the picture that Tom posted  - http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5922HR.jpg - appears to have been made by a primary/elementary school arts and craft class?

Mizuki x
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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #81 on: December 08, 2011, 11:34:57 AM »
Just out of interest, can any of you people who believe that the U.S. went to the moon, explain why the lunar lander, shown here in the picture that Tom posted  - http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5922HR.jpg - appears to have been made by a primary/elementary school arts and craft class?

Mizuki x

Because you know nothing about engineering and the materials used on the outside of the vehicle?

There is no "belief" that we went to the moon. We imaged our equipment on the moon. You can stop with the stupidity.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 11:37:44 AM by LinearPlane »
The FAQ needs updating to reflect the falsehood of the FAQ.

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #82 on: December 08, 2011, 11:46:05 AM »

Quote
Then how do you know that their business practices have not changed?  Again, where is your source?  You can not expect me to accept what you say on your word, when you believe, and i quote "The people there are more concerned with spearing zebras for dinner, knitting loincloths, and coming to terms with a permanent body oder. They are not interested in studying alternative world models." (in reference to countries along the equator)

I know their business practices because I've worked for government contractors.

The government controls its secret and top secret projects (yes, the Lunar Lander and Apollo design and schematics are classified) from top to bottom, they don't give free reign to a company to do and design how they want with mystery employees in an unsecured facility. Rocket and space research is critical to the government. They don't want that stuff in the wrong hands. The idea that Grumman could do whatever they want wherever they want is ridiculous.


Speculation and no quotes.  Really good stuff tom, really good stuff.  I think i asked for citations maybe 3 or four times in the last post alone.  If you cannot be bothered to do some research that shows Gavin as a NASA exec when NASA claims he was vice president of Grumman, then you are simply going to concede he was a Grumman employee by default.  It is pointless if you refuse to cite any sources and simply claim to be the "truth" on the matter.

On a side note, the issue is not if the project was classified, its if Collins radio was paid to design a radio NASA did not need.  Why would they pay Collins radio (incredibly expensive to do) to build something they could easily claim to design in house?

Here is another article that claims that another contractor is building things on their own site for NASA, i thought this never happens?

http://www.space.com/11765-nasa-deep-space-exploration-vehicle-announcement.html

"The Multi-Purpose Crew Vehicle being assembled and tested at Lockheed Martin's Vertical Testing Facility in Colorado"

And no i do not think its ridiculous that they would let Grumman build the Lander at their own Facility in Bethpage NY at plant 5 exactly like my quote says.  NASA has no reason to not trust Grumman, and Grumman has no reason to betray the US and sell the technologies, as no country could afford to pay more than NASA.

NASA could still send over managers to make sure no funny business is going on.  That is the point of hiring a contractor, they have the manpower, the facilities, and the connections you need to build the Lunar Lander.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 12:22:23 PM by OrbisNonSufficit »

Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #83 on: December 08, 2011, 11:50:16 AM »
Just out of interest, can any of you people who believe that the U.S. went to the moon, explain why the lunar lander, shown here in the picture that Tom posted  - http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5922HR.jpg - appears to have been made by a primary/elementary school arts and craft class?

Mizuki x

You have Edie Brickel quoted in your signature. She was right. You're not aware of too many things.
The FAQ needs updating to reflect the falsehood of the FAQ.

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Mizuki

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #84 on: December 08, 2011, 12:07:32 PM »
Just out of interest, can any of you people who believe that the U.S. went to the moon, explain why the lunar lander, shown here in the picture that Tom posted  - http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5922HR.jpg - appears to have been made by a primary/elementary school arts and craft class?

Mizuki x

Because you know nothing about engineering and the materials used on the outside of the vehicle?


Maybe not. But do you?

Because it really looks to me like these are 'the materials used on the outside of the vehicle':-



Mizuki x
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 12:21:34 PM by Mizuki »
"Earth is a maximal sphere in a cyclical space and its surface therefore a total plane, the equator plane of the Cosmos. The (total) plane, as well as the straight line and space as a whole, is flat, without curvature yet closed, running back on itself."

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #85 on: December 08, 2011, 12:13:55 PM »
It should also be noted that the walls of the craft don't even look airtight.


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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #86 on: December 08, 2011, 12:24:38 PM »
It should also be noted that the walls of the craft don't even look airtight.



Why would external insulation need to be airtight?  Its just covering the hull to help with temperatures.  Its like showing an open torpedo tube on a sub and saying! its not air tight, there is a hole!

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #87 on: December 08, 2011, 12:27:14 PM »
Just out of interest, can any of you people who believe that the U.S. went to the moon, explain why the lunar lander, shown here in the picture that Tom posted  - http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/AS11-40-5922HR.jpg - appears to have been made by a primary/elementary school arts and craft class?

Mizuki x

Because you know nothing about engineering and the materials used on the outside of the vehicle?


Maybe not. But do you?

Because it really looks to me like these are 'the materials used on the outside of the vehicle':-



Mizuki x

You are correct that the Lander was made out of metal, adhesives/bolts and welding/ reflective materials  and many thin layers for insulation.  Its not a stealth aircraft, they did not have to design new composite materials.

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markjo

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #88 on: December 08, 2011, 12:34:54 PM »
It should also be noted that the walls of the craft don't even look airtight.


That's because you can't tell the difference between a wall and a cover.  Remember that the LEM was designed to operate in a vacuum so there is no need for the covers of the aft equipment bay to be air tight. 
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Mizuki

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #89 on: December 08, 2011, 12:36:41 PM »
It should also be noted that the walls of the craft don't even look airtight.



Why would external insulation need to be airtight?  Its just covering the hull to help with temperatures.  Its like showing an open torpedo tube on a sub and saying! its not air tight, there is a hole!

You NASA apologists really are gullible.  :)

NASA technicians at work:

Mizuki x
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 12:38:59 PM by Mizuki »
"Earth is a maximal sphere in a cyclical space and its surface therefore a total plane, the equator plane of the Cosmos. The (total) plane, as well as the straight line and space as a whole, is flat, without curvature yet closed, running back on itself."