Stupid Conspiracy

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Stupid Conspiracy
« on: December 05, 2011, 07:05:07 PM »
Yes, I have read the stickied 26 page thread. I want to put this in a readable format.
Let's look at how many people from what walks of life need to be in on the conspiracy in order for it to function, shall we?

1. Space agencies.
People like Tom Bishop love to make out that this is just NASA, the Goddamn Russians and if pushed, China. Not true. You also have the European Space Agency (including people from the UK, France, Germany and so on) and even India has a space programme now. Oh, and Japan. Anyone else I forgot? Probably.
1a. Accessory space agencies.
These are the people who back up the Space Agencies. The Space Agencies oversee the building and flight of spacecraft and the training of astronauts, but not everything in space is owned, created, or operated by them. For example, take deep space probes, often worked on by teams from universities and technical institutions, and monitored by teams such as JPL. These are the people who would need to be most involved in bribery if there was a conspiracy cover up, as they are actually recording the data using massive dishes, and sending the instructions back out to the space craft. They know where man made objects in space should be, and if they weren't where they're meant to be, they would know. We're talking hundreds of people worldwide that need to be in on the conspiracy to pull this off - so far. The number has to rise when we add:

2. Pilots.
There's quite a lot of pilots out there who fly in the southern hemisphere, along routes which according to FET, would exceed the actual capable range of their aircraft by many thousands of miles. The only way to account for this would be to add them to the conspiracy, which also enables them to ignore instrumental discrepancies such as between GPS and navigational beacons, and INS. So let's put that up to another thousand, to be on the conservative side. After all, we're not just talking about current pilots, but all the retired ones and the ones still in training.

3. The armed forces.
All of them, everywhere. At least the ones telling the troops where to go and what to do, and any involved in navigation. Also the crews of submarines, which often use INS for navigation. Let's say another two thousand, to be conservative. (Note to Americans: other countries have armies too, not just you guys.)

4. The hidden armed forces.
Want to disbelieve satellites? Then you have to have stratellites and pseudolites and all the other replacements you like to think exist. Who operates all these? A popular theory on here is it's a branch of the military. And it's gonna need to be another several thousand guys worldwide.

5. Satellite engineers.
No, not the ones that put the satellites up there (see section 1) but the guys that fix the dish on your house. They need to know where to point the dish. If your signal source is thousands of miles away in space, it's easy. If it's on a balloon up in the atmosphere somewhere, then oh dear, suddenly they need to point a dish in Guildford at a different place in the sky than a dish in Croydon. How very strange. Better bribe the thousands of dish guys then, hadn't we?

6. Everyone in the Antarctic.
All the people who work on all the bases out there and who have seen this massive wall of ice, or a big cataclysmic edge - quick, slip them a cash bung! And make sure you've got plenty of cash available because there's quite a high turnover rate of staff down there, and once they've seen the truth, well you just gotta keep paying.

7. Conspiracy enforcers
Assuming all these people are being bribed, you need to have somebody actually running the whole thing. Who looks after the cash that pays off the satellite engineers and the Antarctic researchers? Who threatens to murder them if they squeal? The numbers can't be known for sure but you're gonna need a few hundred of this type just to corral everyone else. Oh, yes, also corrupt politicians in every country.

So how many people are we up to? Probably over ten thousand now. Minimum. This is ridiculous. And once someone's in on it, they need to keep paying them indefinitely. And yet not once do we hear of a leak, after all those thousands of people have been so easily bribed?
Yeah, right.
Watermelon, Rhubarb Rhubarb, no one believes the Earth is Flat, Peas and Carrots,  walla.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2011, 07:29:48 PM »
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1. Space agencies.

Most of the contractors at NASA are being told that they're building model space ships, computer simulations, and underwater practice EVA's. Not many people actually need to be "in on it." Everyone is building things NASA uses for its hoax under the guise of legitimacy.

If someone is contracted to build a Lunar Lander model for a museum, they don't need to know that it's going to be paraded around as the real deal. The people who build these things can easily be put into the dark.

The people building the rockets can be told that the rocket they're building test rockets that are not meant to go into space or reach escape velocity but just into the upper atmosphere. The rocket scientists don't need to be "in on it." They just need to be told that they're building something for testing.

People do what they're told to do and are easily manipulated.

Quote
3. The armed forces.
All of them, everywhere. At least the ones telling the troops where to go and what to do, and any involved in navigation. Also the crews of submarines, which often use INS for navigation. Let's say another two thousand, to be conservative. (Note to Americans: other countries have armies too, not just you guys.)

Navigation works on a Flat Earth.

Quote
4. The hidden armed forces.
Want to disbelieve satellites? Then you have to have stratellites and pseudolites and all the other replacements you like to think exist. Who operates all these? A popular theory on here is it's a branch of the military. And it's gonna need to be another several thousand guys worldwide.

The people running the satellites believe that they are running a legitimate stratellite/pseudolite network. They don't need to be told that satellites don't exist or NASA is a sham.

Quote
5. Satellite engineers.
No, not the ones that put the satellites up there (see section 1) but the guys that fix the dish on your house. They need to know where to point the dish. If your signal source is thousands of miles away in space, it's easy. If it's on a balloon up in the atmosphere somewhere, then oh dear, suddenly they need to point a dish in Guildford at a different place in the sky than a dish in Croydon. How very strange. Better bribe the thousands of dish guys then, hadn't we?

Pointing a dish at the sky doesn't prove that the source is thousands of miles away.
 
Usually you just have to point the dish in a general direction to get a signal. It's hard to say exactly where those signals are coming from.

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6. Everyone in the Antarctic.
All the people who work on all the bases out there and who have seen this massive wall of ice, or a big cataclysmic edge - quick, slip them a cash bung! And make sure you've got plenty of cash available because there's quite a high turnover rate of staff down there, and once they've seen the truth, well you just gotta keep paying.

The people working in Antarctica wouldn't know the earth's shape any more than visiting the eastern coast of china would tell you anything about the earth's shape. The Antarctic coast stretches far inland, farther than humans have ever been. No one is working near the "edge" (if there even is an edge).

The Ice Wall is the coast of Antarctica, which they would have seen while they were passing over.

Quote
7. Conspiracy enforcers
Assuming all these people are being bribed, you need to have somebody actually running the whole thing. Who looks after the cash that pays off the satellite engineers and the Antarctic researchers? Who threatens to murder them if they squeal? The numbers can't be known for sure but you're gonna need a few hundred of this type just to corral everyone else. Oh, yes, also corrupt politicians in every country.

No one needs to be bribed. Even the people who know that NASA is a sham don't need to be paid anything extraordinary. They know what's going to happen to them if they start leaking top secret government documents or information. People go through extensive vetting over a long period of time before they are trusted with government secrets. Military officers handle top secret information which would cause exceptionally grave harm to the United States. They aren't being paid anything extraordinary to keep secrets.

The only people "in on it" are the managers at NASA. But even then, the managers at NASA wouldn't know the true shape of the earth. The purpose of the conspiracy is to fake space travel, not hide the earth's shape. The motive to foster the illusion of America's military dominance of space. It has nothing to do with the shape of the world.

The managers and head honchos at NASA likely themselves believe that the earth is round just like everyone else. They were taught that the earth was round, jut like everyone else. They don't run a real space program, so they wouldn't know.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 07:45:50 PM by Tom Bishop »

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2011, 07:38:25 PM »
Quote
1. Space agencies.

Most of the contractors at NASA are being told that they're building model space ships, computer simulations, and underwater practice EVA's. Not many people actually need to be "in on it." Everyone is building things NASA uses for its hoax under the guise of legitimacy.

If someone is contracted to build a Lunar Lander model for a museum, they don't need to know that it's going to be paraded around as the real deal. The people who build these things can easily be put into the dark.

here is another example of a contractor for the lunar landers.

"Power was initially to be produced by fuel cells built by Pratt and Whitney"

These were not model fuel cells, theses were legitimate fuel cells.  Meaning Pratt and Whitney had to get real dollars to do this.

Your theory that "people do what they are told" only works so high up.  For example, to replace GPS you would need tons, and tons, and tons of towers.  Who pays for those towers? NASA has no extra money for towers.

The people building the rockets can be told that the rocket they're building test rockets that are not meant to go into space or reach escape velocity but just into the upper atmosphere. The rocket scientists don't need to be "in on it." They just need to be told that they're building something for testing.

People do what they're told to do and are easily manipulated.

Quote
3. The armed forces.
All of them, everywhere. At least the ones telling the troops where to go and what to do, and any involved in navigation. Also the crews of submarines, which often use INS for navigation. Let's say another two thousand, to be conservative. (Note to Americans: other countries have armies too, not just you guys.)

Navigation works on a Flat Earth.

Quote
4. The hidden armed forces.
Want to disbelieve satellites? Then you have to have stratellites and pseudolites and all the other replacements you like to think exist. Who operates all these? A popular theory on here is it's a branch of the military. And it's gonna need to be another several thousand guys worldwide.

The people running the satellites believe that they are running a legitimate stratellite/pseudolite network. They don't need to be told that satellites don't exist or NASA is a sham.

Quote
5. Satellite engineers.
No, not the ones that put the satellites up there (see section 1) but the guys that fix the dish on your house. They need to know where to point the dish. If your signal source is thousands of miles away in space, it's easy. If it's on a balloon up in the atmosphere somewhere, then oh dear, suddenly they need to point a dish in Guildford at a different place in the sky than a dish in Croydon. How very strange. Better bribe the thousands of dish guys then, hadn't we?

Pointing a dish at the sky doesn't prove that the source is thousands of miles away.
 
Usually you just have to point the dish in a general direction to get a signal. It's hard to say exactly where those signals are coming from.

Quote
6. Everyone in the Antarctic.
All the people who work on all the bases out there and who have seen this massive wall of ice, or a big cataclysmic edge - quick, slip them a cash bung! And make sure you've got plenty of cash available because there's quite a high turnover rate of staff down there, and once they've seen the truth, well you just gotta keep paying.

The people working in Antarctica wouldn't' know the earth's shape any more than visiting the eastern coast of china would tell you anything about the earth's shape. The land stretches far inland, farther than humans have ever been. No one is working near the "edge". The Ice Wall is the coast of Antarctica.

Quote
7. Conspiracy enforcers
Assuming all these people are being bribed, you need to have somebody actually running the whole thing. Who looks after the cash that pays off the satellite engineers and the Antarctic researchers? Who threatens to murder them if they squeal? The numbers can't be known for sure but you're gonna need a few hundred of this type just to corral everyone else. Oh, yes, also corrupt politicians in every country.

No one needs to be bribed. The only people "in on it" are the managers at NASA. But even then, the managers at NASA wouldn't know the true shape of the earth. Their motive is faking space travel to foster the illusion of America's military dominance of space. It has nothing to do with the shape of the world.

They likely themselves believe that the earth is round. They don't run a real space program, so they wouldn't know.

Grumman was contracted to build the lunar landers, they were contracted to build functional ones.  That is really expensive Tom.

You skipped number two.

Where does all this money come from Tom, NASA's budget?

Why would China be in on letting the US maintain a fake military dominance?

How many Managers of NASA do you think that there are?  There are enough real launches of space craft that there is no way for just the top guys at NASA to fake every single mission.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 07:44:15 PM by OrbisNonSufficit »

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Rushy

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2011, 07:43:48 PM »
For every person that maintains a fake subsystem, there would have to be someone doing the real work. If the fake system managers are doing real work, then I don't see how the satellites are fake in the first place.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2011, 07:55:53 PM »
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Your theory that "people do what they are told" only works so high up.  For example, to replace GPS you would need tons, and tons, and tons of towers.  Who pays for those towers? NASA has no extra money for towers.

The government already has a world-wide network of towers which operate on the same triangulation principles of GPS. Look up the LORAN System. They have them installed as standard equipment at most military bases. LORAN is a ground-based GPS system.

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Grumman was contracted to build the lunar landers, they were contracted to build functional ones.  That is really expensive Tom.

Grumman as a company doesn't build anything for the government. Grumman is a temp agency which hires people out to work on government installations directly under supervision of government managers. The only interaction most people have with their contractor is a paycheck. Nearly all of their direction comes from government managers.

The NASA manager just has to tell the Grumman contractors that "oh you're on the B-Team making the models, sorry." The supposed A-Team making the real deal doesn't exist.

If you look closely at the lunar lander you can see quite clearly that it is thrown together with junkyard parts and stationary supplies.

Quote
Where does all this money come from Tom, NASA's budget?

Yes, NASA's budget. It's cheaper to run a fake space agency than run a real one. One can only imagine where all the money goes.

NASA can't even survive audits by the GAO. No one knows whether the money is truly going to where NASA claims it is.

Read what the GAO has to say about NASA:

    "NASA is still unable to provide detailed support for the
    amounts obligated against the limits. Thus, we could not verify the
    amounts NASA reported to Congress in its budget requests for fiscal
    years 2002 through 2006."

Quote
Why would China be in on letting the US maintain a fake military dominance?

China has a fake space program as well, which is even sloppier than the American one.

See the section on China at the bottom of the Wiki Conspiracy Page.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 08:01:05 PM by Tom Bishop »

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2011, 08:11:38 PM »
Quote
Your theory that "people do what they are told" only works so high up.  For example, to replace GPS you would need tons, and tons, and tons of towers.  Who pays for those towers? NASA has no extra money for towers.

The government already has a world-wide network of towers which operate on the same triangulation principles of GPS. Look up the LORAN System. They have them installed as standard equipment at most military bases. LORAN is a ground-based GPS system.

Quote
Grumman was contracted to build the lunar landers, they were contracted to build functional ones.  That is really expensive Tom.

Grumman as a company doesn't build anything for the government. Grumman is a temp agency which hires people out to work on government installations directly under supervision of government managers. The only interaction most people have with their contractor is a paycheck. Nearly all of their direction comes from government managers.

The NASA manager just has to tell the Grumman contractors that "oh you're on the B-Team making the models, sorry." The supposed A-Team making the real deal doesn't exist.

If you look closely at the lunar lander you can see quite clearly that it is thrown together with junkyard parts and stationary supplies.

Quote
Where does all this money come from Tom, NASA's budget?

Yes, NASA's budget. It's cheaper to run a fake space agency than run a real one. One can only imagine where all the money goes.

NASA can't even survive audits by the GAO. No one knows is the money is truly going to where NASA claims it is.

Read what the GAO has to say about NASA:

    "NASA is still unable to provide detailed support for the
    amounts obligated against the limits. Thus, we could not verify the
    amounts NASA reported to Congress in its budget requests for fiscal
    years 2002 through 2006."

Quote
Why would China be in on letting the US maintain a fake military dominance?

They don't. China has a fake space program as well, which is even sloppier than the American one.

See the section on China at the bottom of the Wiki Conspiracy Page.

1.)Northrop Grumman is a cooperation that builds defense oriented and aerospace technologies, its in their very company description.
http://www.northropgrumman.com/contracts/index.html
they are contracted by the government to build things that the government needs, but the government just pays the to design what they need.  Grumman takes credit for building the lunar lander, not for building a mock one.  So either they are in on the conspiracy, or NASA paid them to build a functional lunar lander that was never used.

2.)  GPS signals are linear, meaning for GPS to work everywhere, which it does, you would need more towers than the LORAN system has.

3.) We might not know where every penny goes, but NASA is not missing more than a quarter of its budget.  Take for example the cost of maintaining just cellphone towers used by verizon, its roughly 6 billion per year.  Assuming that GPS works everywhere, which it does, and that verizon only operates in developed countries, and even then service is not always uniform, mainting a world wide tower network would exceed NASA's total budget, a meager 20 billion.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 08:23:26 PM by OrbisNonSufficit »

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squevil

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2011, 08:22:21 PM »
oh dear you reaqlly dont have a clue. didnt answer me though about a scientists dedication being worth more than money. passion goes a long way

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2011, 08:26:12 PM »
Quote
1.)Northrop Grumman is a cooperation that builds defense oriented and aerospace technologies, its in their very company description.

Yeah, well, you don't know how they work. Northrop Grumman, like all government contractors, is just a temp agency. They don't actually build anything as a company. They have HR managers, not Project Managers. Their engineers work in government facilities for government managers. The only interaction a contractor has with his company is a paycheck twice a month.

Quote
2.)  GPS signals are linear, meaning for GPS to work everywhere, which it does, you would need more towers than the LORAN system has.

LORAN covers the entire US, the entirety of Europe, the entirety of Japan, the the entire Middle East, and populated areas of Canada, Russia, and China.



Source

And this is only the US's worldwide system of towers. Other NATO powers probably have something similar.

Quote
3.) We might not know where every penny goes, but NASA is not missing more than a quarter of its budget.  Take for example the cost of maintaining just cellphone towers used by verizon, its roughly 6 billion per year.  Assuming that GPS works everywhere, which it does, and that verizon only operates in developed countries, and even then service is not always uniform, mainting a world wide tower network would exceed NASA's total budget, a meager 20 billion.

The military pays for LORAN, not NASA.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 08:38:42 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2011, 08:39:13 PM »
A few years ago I took my car GPS on a flight to Japan and it worked perfectly, I could see exactly where I was. Of course it was freaking out that I wouldn't make a U-turn, but it functioned normally. I don't suppose the military has LORAN built into buoys across the Pacific ocean do they?
You, sir, can't comprehend the idea of bottoms.

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2011, 08:39:41 PM »



1.) Northropp grumman takes credit for producing a lunar lander, why would it do that if it was contracted to build only a mock lander?

2.)  The Towers for LORAN are not in use today, according to the US military.

Per a subsequent announcement, the U.S. Coast Guard, in accordance with the DHS Appropriations Act, terminated the transmission of all U.S. LORAN-C signals on February 8, 2010.[2] On August 1, 2010 the U.S. transmission of the Russian American signal was terminated,[2] and on August 3, 2010 all Canadian signals were shut down by the USCG and the CCG.[2][3]

Meaning NASA would secretly be using them for GPS, and even then the coverage just does not make sense.  A tower based system can not provide coverage when in valleys as well as a satalite system.

the Loran Based system was not used in south america, but GPS works there.

Did NASA build towers there?

And it does not cover the entire US, it has "good" coverage in the US.

3.)  So if the US military no longer uses the towers, who pays for NASA to use them?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 08:47:02 PM by OrbisNonSufficit »

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markjo

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2011, 08:44:07 PM »
Quote
1.)Northrop Grumman is a cooperation that builds defense oriented and aerospace technologies, its in their very company description.

Yeah, well, you don't know how they work. Northrop Grumman, like all government contractors, is just a temp agency. They don't actually build anything as a company. They have HR managers, not Project Managers. Their engineers work in government facilities for government managers. The only interaction a contractor has with his company is a paycheck twice a month.

If Grumman didn't build anything, then who made the LEMs?

Quote
2.)  GPS signals are linear, meaning for GPS to work everywhere, which it does, you would need more towers than the LORAN system has.

LORAN covers the entire US, the entirety of Europe, the entirety of Japan, the the entire Middle East, and populated areas of Canada, Russia, and China.



Source

I notice a significant lack of LORAN coverage in the southern hemisphere.  Congratulations Tom, you have conclusively shown that LORAN is not a "global" positioning system.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2011, 08:53:32 PM »
A few years ago I took my car GPS on a flight to Japan and it worked perfectly, I could see exactly where I was. Of course it was freaking out that I wouldn't make a U-turn, but it functioned normally. I don't suppose the military has LORAN built into buoys across the Pacific ocean do they?

Other countries may.

Also, the US Military is known to have ships and planes which don't exist on paper. I don't see why this couldn't apply to LORAN as well.

The NAVY has antennas on buoys all across the Pacific and Atlantic which are supposedly monitoring the weather.

Quote
1.) Northropp grumman takes credit for producing a lunar lander, why would it do that if it was contracted to build only a mock lander?

The separation between Grumman and its employees are so distant that they don't even know what their employees are working on. Their employees very often have higher clearances than the managers at Grumman. I've worked for plenty of civilian and government contractors. My only communication with the contracting company was literally a paycheck and maybe an occasional call to clarify some hours worked.

Grumman knew that their employees were working on some Apollo projects and went with that for their press releases.

Quote
2.)  The Towers for LORAN are not in use today, according to the US military.

Congress is pretty strict about military waste. If the military claimed that they were running both GPS and a tower network that did the same thing it would look bad.

Quote
Meaning NASA would secretly be using them for GPS, and even then the coverage just does not make sense.  A tower based system can not provide coverage when in valleys as well as a satalite system.

They put the towers on the top of mountains so the signals can reach into valleys.

Quote
3.)  So if the US military no longer uses the towers, who pays for NASA to use them?

The military still uses them. Again, it's about military waste.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 09:11:22 PM by Tom Bishop »

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squevil

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2011, 08:57:47 PM »
the place i live is a valley and the only tower near me is a tv one (i believe) and its nowhere near high enough to get signal over the hills

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2011, 08:58:52 PM »
Quote
1.)Northrop Grumman is a cooperation that builds defense oriented and aerospace technologies, its in their very company description.

Yeah, well, you don't know how they work. Northrop Grumman, like all government contractors, is just a temp agency. They don't actually build anything as a company. They have HR managers, not Project Managers. Their engineers work in government facilities for government managers. The only interaction a contractor has with his company is a paycheck twice a month.

If Grumman didn't build anything, then who made the LEMs?

The only LEMs Grumman built were models thrown together with junkyard parts and stationary supplies.

Quote
I notice a significant lack of LORAN coverage in the southern hemisphere.  Congratulations Tom, you have conclusively shown that LORAN is not a "global" positioning system.

Countries like India, Australia or Brazil may have purchased the same kinds of technologies for their armed forces.

The picture illustrates the coverage of the US's navigational towers.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 09:08:23 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2011, 09:13:20 PM »
Quote
1.)Northrop Grumman is a cooperation that builds defense oriented and aerospace technologies, its in their very company description.

Yeah, well, you don't know how they work. Northrop Grumman, like all government contractors, is just a temp agency. They don't actually build anything as a company. They have HR managers, not Project Managers. Their engineers work in government facilities for government managers. The only interaction a contractor has with his company is a paycheck twice a month.

If Grumman didn't build anything, then who made the LEMs?

The only LEMs Grumman built were models thrown together with junkyard parts and stationary supplies.

Quote
I notice a significant lack of LORAN coverage in the southern hemisphere.  Congratulations Tom, you have conclusively shown that LORAN is not a "global" positioning system.

Countries like India, Australia or Brazil may have purchased the same kinds of technologies for their armed forces.

The picture illustrates the coverage of the US's navigational towers.

I suppose you could assume that every country in the world has built towers on every land mass and ocean, and I suppose you could assume that there exists a shadow government that has lasted for centuries and has the power to bend the laws of physics their wills, but do you have any evidence. All you've given us is a ridiculous picture of a lander that has yet to be authenticated and a list of your opinions that you keep calling fact.

Prove your claims or be ignored.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 09:54:27 PM by jraffield1 »
You, sir, can't comprehend the idea of bottoms.

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squevil

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2011, 09:15:26 PM »
also the problem lies with the hunting countries at the equator where they only have spears for antenas

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2011, 09:16:06 PM »
A few years ago I took my car GPS on a flight to Japan and it worked perfectly, I could see exactly where I was. Of course it was freaking out that I wouldn't make a U-turn, but it functioned normally. I don't suppose the military has LORAN built into buoys across the Pacific ocean do they?

Other countries may.

Also, the US Military is known to have ships and planes which don't exist on paper. I don't see why this couldn't apply to LORAN as well.

The NAVY has antennas on buoys all across the Pacific and Atlantic which are supposedly monitoring the weather.

Quote
1.) Northropp grumman takes credit for producing a lunar lander, why would it do that if it was contracted to build only a mock lander?

The separation between Grumman and its employees are so distant that they don't even know what their employees are working on. Their employees very often have higher clearances than the HR managers at Grumman. I've worked for plenty of civilian and government contractors. My only communication with the contracting company was literally a paycheck.

Grumman knew that their employees were working on some Apollo projects and went with that for their press releases.

Quote
2.)  The Towers for LORAN are not in use today, according to the US military.

Congress is pretty strict about military waste. If the military claimed that they were running both GPS and a tower network that did the same thing it would look bad.

Quote
Meaning NASA would secretly be using them for GPS, and even then the coverage just does not make sense.  A tower based system can not provide coverage when in valleys as well as a satalite system.

They put the towers on the top of mountains so the signals can reach into valleys.

Quote
3.)  So if the US military no longer uses the towers, who pays for NASA to use them?

The military still uses them. Again, it's about military waste.

You seem to not understand GPS, it does not have coverage gaps.  I assure you that  There are not enough towers to reach into every valley.  You can go to any country in the world and not have a gap, you could go in the middle of the ocean and not have a gap.

Not every country can afford enough towers to do that, so Tom, you have lost the debate there.

As for you interpretation of how government contracts work, its not 100 percent true.  As i have stated before, my grandfather at Collins radio was part of a team contracted to design the radios for the Apollo missions, they did not get contracted to build dummy radios, and the delivered a working product.

It seems highly unlikely that Grumman allowed its engineers to work on a LUNAR LANDER with no executive oversight, and just because you have had experiences with government contractors does not mean that is solely how they operate, nor does it mean that the projects you worked on were as significant and therefore treated differently than a mission to the moon.

Congress is strict about military waste, that is not even an issue.  Why would the Military claim to use satellites as its only form of GPS when it only uses the ground based systems, is it in on the conspiracy too?  Not to mention that it cannot continue to operate them without significant operational costs, which would have to be disclosed.




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Tom Bishop

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2011, 09:19:40 PM »
I suppose you could assume that every country in the world has built towers on the every land mass and ocean, and I suppose you could assume that there exists a shadow government that has lasted for centuries and has the power to bend the laws of physics their wills, but do you have any evidence. All you've given us is a ridiculous picture of a lander that has yet to be authenticated and a list of your opinions that you keep calling fact.

Prove your claims or be ignored.

- The picture linked on that page is hosted directly on NASA's servers. It was supposedly taken during the Apollo 11 mission. It's image AS11-40-5922 if you care to do a Google Search.

- I didn't say that the government can bend the laws of physics at their will  ???

- I bet China has its own navigational system for its military. No one wants to rely on American navigational systems which could easily be turned off or modified during times of war. Any military who doesn't provide its own navigational solution is stupid. Unfortunately I don't really care to learn Chineese, Indian, or Spanish to find out if other countries have anything similar. It's not exactly a secret technology they can't buy from a western company.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 09:24:00 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2011, 09:34:59 PM »
Quote
You seem to not understand GPS, it does not have coverage gaps.

One would only know that if they explored every point of the earth's surface.

Quote
Not every country can afford enough towers to do that, so Tom, you have lost the debate there.

Considering that countries print their own currencies and can afford anything they want to afford (at least in the short term), I will have to disagree.

Quote
As for you interpretation of how government contracts work, its not 100 percent true.  As i have stated before, my grandfather at Collins radio was part of a team contracted to design the radios for the Apollo missions, they did not get contracted to build dummy radios, and the delivered a working product.

Then it's a good thing that no one is claiming that radios are fake, isn't it?

Quote
It seems highly unlikely that Grumman allowed its engineers to work on a LUNAR LANDER with no executive oversight, and just because you have had experiences with government contractors does not mean that is solely how they operate, nor does it mean that the projects you worked on were as significant and therefore treated differently than a mission to the moon.

Yes, it's solely how they operate. Government Contractors are temp agencies. They have no control over what their employees are doing in government research facilities.

Quote
Congress is strict about military waste, that is not even an issue.  Why would the Military claim to use satellites as its only form of GPS when it only uses the ground based systems, is it in on the conspiracy too?  Not to mention that it cannot continue to operate them without significant operational costs, which would have to be disclosed.

The US Military has a navigational division called the 50th Space Wing which supposedly works with NASA to maintain the GPS satellites. The operational costs for the towers probably comes from the GPS budget.

NASA was a military organization from the start. NASA was originally named the US Army Ballistic Missile Arsenal. The astronauts are all military men. NASA uses the clearances Unclassified, Confidential, Secret, and Top Secret, just like the military.

Indeed, the purpose of NASA is to foster the illusion of the military's dominance over space. They fake space travel because they need America to be capable of annihilating any country at the push of a button. ICBM's are the super weapon which have made America the dominant force it is today.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 09:50:43 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2011, 09:59:22 PM »

Indeed, the purpose of NASA is to foster the illusion of the military's dominance over space. They fake space travel because they need America to be capable of annihilating any country at the push of a button. ICBM's are the super weapon which have made America the dominant force it is today.

If the other countries are in on the conspiracy and know space travel is impossible, then why are they fooled by the "illusion of dominance?"
You, sir, can't comprehend the idea of bottoms.

*

Tom Bishop

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2011, 10:02:54 PM »

Indeed, the purpose of NASA is to foster the illusion of the military's dominance over space. They fake space travel because they need America to be capable of annihilating any country at the push of a button. ICBM's are the super weapon which have made America the dominant force it is today.

If the other countries are in on the conspiracy and know space travel is impossible, then why are they fooled by the "illusion of dominance?"

I don't think all of them are in on the same conspiracy. I don't think China is in on the NASA conspiracy, for example. The Chinese Space Agency looks incredibly fake. If NASA was assisting the production values would be much higher.

See the Chinese Space Agency section at the bottom of the Wiki's Conspiracy page: http://theflatearthsociety.net/wiki/index.php/The_Conspiracy

China and NASA have never had a joint mission or participate in any space acrivities, which further supports the idea that they are separate hoaxes.

Also, not all countries truly have space programs. While plenty claim to be space powers, relatively few have launch capability. Canada might claim to have a "space program," but their space program consists of paying NASA obscene amounts of money to put a Canadian Astronaut on the ISS. I doubt countries like Canada, Portugal, Mexico, Germany, etc who piggyback like that are "in on it". They mostly rent what they think are satellites from NASA or pay for space and weather data.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 10:10:48 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2011, 10:10:27 PM »

Indeed, the purpose of NASA is to foster the illusion of the military's dominance over space. They fake space travel because they need America to be capable of annihilating any country at the push of a button. ICBM's are the super weapon which have made America the dominant force it is today.

If the other countries are in on the conspiracy and know space travel is impossible, then why are they fooled by the "illusion of dominance?"

I don't think all of them are in on the same conspiracy. I don't think China is in on the NASA conspiracy, for example. The Chinese Space Agency looks incredibly fake. If NASA was assisting the production values would be much higher.

See the Chinese Space Agency section at the bottom of the Wiki's Conspiracy page: http://theflatearthsociety.net/wiki/index.php/The_Conspiracy

Also, not all countries have space programs. Relatively few have launch capability. Canada might claim to have a "space program," but their space program consists of paying NASA obscene amounts of money to put a Canadian Astronaut on the ISS.

I think every space faring country must be connected to the same conspiracy. Otherwise, why would foreign astronauts lie to their own government about being aboard the ISS?
You, sir, can't comprehend the idea of bottoms.

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2011, 10:13:30 PM »
Quote
You seem to not understand GPS, it does not have coverage gaps.

One would only know that if they explored every point of the earth's surface.

Quote
Not every country can afford enough towers to do that, so Tom, you have lost the debate there.

Considering that countries print their own currencies and can afford anything they want to afford (at least in the short term), I will have to disagree.

Quote
As for you interpretation of how government contracts work, its not 100 percent true.  As i have stated before, my grandfather at Collins radio was part of a team contracted to design the radios for the Apollo missions, they did not get contracted to build dummy radios, and the delivered a working product.

Then it's a good thing that no one is claiming that radios are fake, isn't it?

Quote
It seems highly unlikely that Grumman allowed its engineers to work on a LUNAR LANDER with no executive oversight, and just because you have had experiences with government contractors does not mean that is solely how they operate, nor does it mean that the projects you worked on were as significant and therefore treated differently than a mission to the moon.

Yes, it's solely how they operate. Government Contractors are temp agencies. They have no control over what their employees are doing in government research facilities.

Quote
Congress is strict about military waste, that is not even an issue.  Why would the Military claim to use satellites as its only form of GPS when it only uses the ground based systems, is it in on the conspiracy too?  Not to mention that it cannot continue to operate them without significant operational costs, which would have to be disclosed.

The US Military has a navigational division called the 50th Space Wing which supposedly works with NASA to maintain the GPS satellites. The operational costs for the towers probably comes from the GPS budget.

NASA was a military organization from the start. NASA was originally named the US Army Ballistic Missile Arsenal. The astronauts are all military men. NASA uses the clearances Unclassified, Confidential, Secret, and Top Secret, just like the military.

Indeed, the purpose of NASA is to foster the illusion of the military's dominance over space. They fake space travel because they need America to be capable of annihilating any country at the push of a button. ICBM's are the super weapon which have made America the dominant force it is today.

Im done with this, You think that countries with "poor" economies that can not even support armed forces would print money to build GPS towers and maintain GPS towers (lets not forget that you said for a short time) for absolutely no reason?  No one in those countries uses GPS, why would they have GPS towers?  Please link a document showing any hint that Zimbabwe built gps towers with all the money they printed!

Its ridiculous Tom, That you would even post that nonsense.  You call people on the equator zebra eaters then you insist their governments are building GPS towers, what BS.








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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17732
Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2011, 10:38:57 PM »
Quote from: jraffield1
I think every space faring country must be connected to the same conspiracy. Otherwise, why would foreign astronauts lie to their own government about being aboard the ISS?

NASA likely selects the astronauts as a term of the agreement.

Quote from: OrbisNonSufficit
Im done with this, You think that countries with "poor" economies that can not even support armed forces would print money to build GPS towers and maintain GPS towers (lets not forget that you said for a short time) for absolutely no reason?

Countries need their own navigational system because in times of war the system can be modified to deny coverage to their area. The US Military isn't so stupid as to build all of their ships and airplanes to rely on Chinese-controlled navigational systems. What makes you think that China is?

Quote from: OrbisNonSufficit
No one in those countries uses GPS, why would they have GPS towers?  Please link a document showing any hint that Zimbabwe built gps towers with all the money they printed!

Its ridiculous Tom, That you would even post that nonsense.  You call people on the equator zebra eaters then you insist their governments are building GPS towers, what BS.

I don't recall claiming that all countries had navigational systems.


« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 10:56:24 PM by Tom Bishop »

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2011, 10:59:28 PM »
Quote from: jraffield1
I think every space faring country must be connected to the same conspiracy. Otherwise, why would foreign astronauts lie to their own government about being aboard the ISS?

NASA likely selects the astronauts as a term of the agreement.

Quote from: OrbisNonSufficit
Im done with this, You think that countries with "poor" economies that can not even support armed forces would print money to build GPS towers and maintain GPS towers (lets not forget that you said for a short time) for absolutely no reason?

Countries need their own navigational system because in times of war the system can be modified to deny coverage to their area, or disabled altogether. The US Military isn't so stupid as to build all of their ships and airplanes to rely on Chinese-controlled navigational systems. What makes you think that China is?

Quote from: OrbisNonSufficit
No one in those countries uses GPS, why would they have GPS towers?  Please link a document showing any hint that Zimbabwe built gps towers with all the money they printed!

Its ridiculous Tom, That you would even post that nonsense.  You call people on the equator zebra eaters then you insist their governments are building GPS towers, what BS.

I don't recall claiming that all countries had navigational systems.

Im not talking about chines GPS tom, im talking about GPS working in the poorest of African countries.  The military in these countries are not GPS based tom.  Some of their deference budgets are less than the cost of a single cruise missile. 

GPS works everywhere, that is why its called GPS.

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Tom Bishop

  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 17732
Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2011, 11:00:49 PM »
Im not talking about chines GPS tom, im talking about GPS working in the poorest of African countries.  The military in these countries are not GPS based tom.  Some of their deference budgets are less than the cost of a single cruise missile. 

If NATO countries are sending aid to those nations, flying over, or visiting on a regular basis, it stands to reason that someone would think to install some sort of navigational system. It's not like antennas need to be manned or hugely expensive. They're probably installed at the military bases of their allies in the area.

Quote
GPS works everywhere, that is why its called GPS.

I haven't seen any evidence of that.

« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 07:52:30 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2011, 11:17:57 PM »
Quote from: jraffield1
I think every space faring country must be connected to the same conspiracy. Otherwise, why would foreign astronauts lie to their own government about being aboard the ISS?

NASA likely selects the astronauts as a term of the agreement.


This is purely speculation, what evidence do you have for this?

So the foreign astronauts, who believe that we can travel into space and believe this is the basis of our dominance, aren't surprised in the least when they are told they are going into space and instead go to some military base? After learning that we're faking everything, I think its clear that our illusion of dominance would be shattered.
You, sir, can't comprehend the idea of bottoms.

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2011, 11:24:06 PM »
Im not talking about chines GPS tom, im talking about GPS working in the poorest of African countries.  The military in these countries are not GPS based tom.  Some of their deference budgets are less than the cost of a single cruise missile. 

If NATO countries are sending aid to those nations, flying over, or visiting on a regular basis, it stands to reason that someone would think to install some sort of navigational system. It's not like antennas need to be manned or hugely expensive. They're probably installed at the military bases of their allies.

Quote
GPS works everywhere, that is why its called GPS.

I haven't seen any evidence of that.

You really don't think enough about your posts do you.  Lets say your right, and NATO is sending aid to every developing african nation.  Wouldn't NATO be surprised when its GPS stopped working?!!??!  I think rather than install towers they might question why in the hell their GPS was not working! You would think satellites would work in Africa if your not part of the conspiracy am i correct?

http://www.travelbygps.com/z_links/tracks4africa_dot_co.php

Here, GPS works in every African country!
« Last Edit: December 05, 2011, 11:28:06 PM by OrbisNonSufficit »

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OrbisNonSufficit

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2011, 11:44:48 PM »
Also Tom, Northrop Grumman seems to pretty clearly believe and advertise that it built and tested the actual Lunar landers at its own facility,

At its Bethpage, N.Y. facility, Grumman Corporation, now part of the Northrop Grumman Aerospace Systems sector, designed, assembled, integrated and tested the Lunar Module (better known as the LM), the famed Eagle of the Apollo program. Between 1969 and 1972, six Grumman lunar modules carried 12 astronauts to and from the surface of the moon and one Aquarius served as a lifeboat for three astronauts during the ill-fated Apollo 13 mission.

http://www.northropgrumman.com/heritage/inspace/index.html

Are you saying that what really happened was a bunch of Grumman employees/engineers were told to design a simple model, and that's it?

Joe Gavin seems to believe he worked on the actual Landing system, he is a Grumman executive who oversaw the project, so im confused as to why you think Grumman would have no idea that the lunar lander they built was just a model, when their executive seems to believe that he helped design a working version in their own facility, the same place where he believes they tested it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/04/business/04gavin.html

In fact, 7500 people seem to think that they worked on the actual lander under a Northrop Grumman Executive's direction.

"Mr. Gavin managed the 7,500-member team that made the Eagle"

I think this is the A team you mentioned, led by a Grumman executive, which is exactly the opposite of how you said it would be.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 12:11:29 AM by OrbisNonSufficit »

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Moon squirter

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Re: Stupid Conspiracy
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2011, 02:23:27 AM »
Quote
GPS works everywhere, that is why its called GPS.

I haven't seen any evidence of that.

Alas on planet Bishop, if it hasn't been proven absolutely true, it must be false.
I haven't performed it and I've never claimed to. I've have trouble being in two places at the same time.