Questions for Round Earth arguers

Why do you feel that it matters that people believe the Earth is flat?

Considering the majority of "FEers" on this forum have strong backgrounds in science and philosophy and are not religious (if you don't believe me on this, please for arguements sake assume it to be true), how can it hurt you or the world based on what shape they claim the Earth is?

Why do you believe that they are telling you the truth when they tell you they believe the Earth is flat?  

Is it a believable statement to claim that the Earth is flat?

If if is not a believable statement, why do you believe that they mean it?

What is the difference then between them believing that the Earth is flat and you believing that they actually believe that the Earth is flat?

Who cares?



I should think them ost of us are just here for the debating side of things, and as you should be aware in debating sometimes you are forced to argue upon topics in which you have opposite/no views on.

I'm just curious, I can be curious can't I?

I think it's pretty clear that a large portion of the RE arguers are not here "for the debating side of things" unless they are just really poor debaters.  In my debating experience when you call the opposing side "retards" you always lose - at least in competative debating.

I don't see a problem with believing in a flat earth.

Why do you feel that it matters that people believe the Earth is flat?

It's bad science, and we've got enough of that without adding this type of stuff to it. Next thing you know, people will be arguing for it to be taught in schools (like Kansas, USA does with creationism).

But you're assuming that people on this site actually believe it... You didn't answer my other questions.

Also do you really think this will take off and it will become a widely accepted theory?

I don't care if people believe the Earth is flat... or if they believe that dragons live in volcanoes or even if they believe Hobbits are scurrying around under New York City.

I start to care when they call it 'Science', and put out "Scientific Theories' that cannot be challenged.

First of all beast I think your wrong about whether or not the people on this site actually belive in the FE.

Doubtless, there are some trolls, but I think you would be suprised at how many people here really belive the Earth is flat.

I argue on this forum because any anti-scientific thinking can have detrimental effects on the public.  There was a new guy here yesterday who said he had been converted to FE, do you think he is going to trust the scientific comunity from now on?

I belive science is the greatist gift to us since fire, and it has proven it's usefulness time and again.  I want people to use it, not fight it.

Max, you have probably met at most 2 true believers. Dogplatter and Dionysos are the only remotely active ones. WisconsinAmmo claims to be, but I somewhat doubt it.

That may be so dysfunction, but in my opinion even 2 is to 2 too many.

Well i bet there's atleast 2 people who believe we're all made from pancakes and the rabbits rule us from the moon, but that's not the point.

But you're assuming that people on this site actually believe it... You didn't answer my other questions.

Also do you really think this will take off and it will become a widely accepted theory?

One person preaching that the earth is flat (without any evidence) is one person too many preaching bad science, so if there is even one person here, or anywhere that believes it (and there is probably more than one worldwide); it needs countering. As for will it take off, well if we counter it, and prove it wrong *now*, then it won't. If we ignore those who believe it, and dismiss them as harmless kooks; then who knows. Agin look at creationism, because the scientists didn't nip ID in the bud when it was young, a large number of people now believe it to be true.

even though I have alot of work right now and can't argue that much, but I'll be back in a few hours perhaps

Why do you feel that it matters that people believe the Earth is flat?

I think curious had it right in the little Holocaust thread in the Everything Else forum,

The flat Earth as I see it, is an intellectual challenge, to shake up dogmatic ideas and generate thought.

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That's pretty much what I view the FE thing as, and what I view this forum for.  Unfortunately, not many people understand that, and tend to come in here thinking they're all big and smart, and either get their asses handed to them, or just troll and get banned...  But, you're pretty much going to have that anywhere, though.

Considering the majority of "FEers" on this forum have strong backgrounds in science and philosophy and are not religious (if you don't believe me on this, please for arguements sake assume it to be true), how can it hurt you or the world based on what shape they claim the Earth is?

It doesn't.  To be frankly honest, it really doesn't matter what shape the earth is, since (in theory) everything still works pretty much the same way.  The theories don't, but I mean the world still operates in the same manner (i.e. civilization).

Of course, there's the whole deal with the supposed world government conspiracy, but that's just outright ridiculous.  As if the ancient civilizations views on astronomy were faked.  *shrug*

Why do you believe that they are telling you the truth when they tell you they believe the Earth is flat?

I don't.    However, they can be very convincing, with their pretty well thought out theories and such (aside from the conspiracy, haha).

Is it a believable statement to claim that the Earth is flat?

Yes, and no.  If they were able to come up with sufficient evidence to counter everything that has been taught about modern science, I wouldn't have a problem dropping everything I've been taught and believing the "new" science to be accurate.

If if is not a believable statement, why do you believe that they mean it?

I don't.  

What is the difference then between them believing that the Earth is flat and you believing that they actually believe that the Earth is flat?

They don't, and I believe that they don't.

Does that answer your questions?  

But you're assuming that people on this site actually believe it...

If someone you don't know tells you they believe something, you have no premise to disbelieve them.  If that is not the case then they shouldn't lie

As for will it take off, well if we counter it, and prove it wrong *now*, then it won't. If we ignore those who believe it, and dismiss them as harmless kooks; then who knows.

That you seem to be saying this in seriousness is a bit frightening. The true FE believers on this forum tend to accept that they will never prove their belief, and it will never reach mainstream acceptance; the fact that you seem genuinely worried that it will makes you more oblivious than any of them.

Agin look at creationism, because the scientists didn't nip ID in the bud when it was young, a large number of people now believe it to be true.

Are you suggesting modern theories of evolution and the origins of the universe predate creationism? That's just... dumb.

First of all, what is practiced by followers of Samuel Rowbotham is not science -- it is Zeteticism.  Different rules.

Secondly, neither the public nor the integrity of the scientific legacy is going to be better off if people like "us" stop touting Flat Earthism or Creationism or any of the other popular pseudosciences.  Anybody who thinks otherwise is the real cause of the disease afflicting Western intellectualism.

The more people who show up at this website and say OMG HOW COULD YOU BE SO F***ING RETARDED and go home comfortable in their totally ill-founded belief that the world is round, the worse off society is.

The more people who show up at this website stunned at our arrogance and driven by an urge to prove us wrong, who go and read some books written by actual scientists, who learn something about physics or geology or astronomy, and who convince themselves rationally that the the Earth is round, the more reasonable people we have sitting on school boards and ethics committees and the closer to utopia we will be.

The more people who show up at this website stunned at our arrogance and driven by an urge to prove us wrong, who go and read some books written by actual scientists, who learn something about physics or geology or astronomy, and who convince themselves rationally that the the Earth is round, the more reasonable people we have sitting on school boards and ethics committees and the closer to utopia we will be.

Quoted for Truth

The more people who show up at this website stunned at our arrogance and driven by an urge to prove us wrong, who go and read some books written by actual scientists, who learn something about physics or geology or astronomy, and who convince themselves rationally that the the Earth is round, the more reasonable people we have sitting on school boards and ethics committees and the closer to utopia we will be.

Here, here!!!  Well said Erasmus!  I never thought of the Flat Earth forum that way. . .

Quote from: "VJ"

As for will it take off, well if we counter it, and prove it wrong *now*, then it won't. If we ignore those who believe it, and dismiss them as harmless kooks; then who knows.

That you seem to be saying this in seriousness is a bit frightening. The true FE believers on this forum tend to accept that they will never prove their belief, and it will never reach mainstream acceptance; the fact that you seem genuinely worried that it will makes you more oblivious than any of them.

Perhaps none of them here yet, but it only takes one or two fanatics (probably to claim religion is on their side), to start a larger movement. People in general are not clever, and will believe all sorts of irrational things. Again, look at yooung earth creationism, another example would be Scientology

Quote

Agin look at creationism, because the scientists didn't nip ID in the bud when it was young, a large number of people now believe it to be true.

Are you suggesting modern theories of evolution and the origins of the universe predate creationism? That's just... dumb.

No, I'm not. However less than 10 or 15 years ago, it was firmly in the realms of religion; so called "Intelligent Design" is predated by modern evolution theory, and it is ID that is being taught in schools. ID is nothing less than creationism by the back door. Had Scientists tackled ID in it's early stages, we would not be at the stage we are now. Instead they dismissed it as ranting by a bunch of kooks, and now alot of otherwise intelligent people no longer believe in evolution, but would rather believe that the that the Universe was created 5000 years ago. And this nonsense is now being taught in some American schools.

You're worried that a larger Flat Earth movement will begin and one day will be taught in schools?  :shock:

And people call Flat Earthers paranoid...

The more people who show up at this website stunned at our arrogance and driven by an urge to prove us wrong, who go and read some books written by actual scientists, who learn something about physics or geology or astronomy, and who convince themselves rationally that the the Earth is round, the more reasonable people we have sitting on school boards and ethics committees and the closer to utopia we will be.

How I wish this was true, unfortunatly there are a large number of dumb, gullible people in the world; unfortunatly they also have internet access. it'll only take a few of people to find Biblical quotes and set up some foundation to take the message to the American Bible belt, and FE will be being taught in Kansas in no time.

Why do you feel that it matters that people believe the Earth is flat?
It bothers me that people who claim they are intelligent and educated are so thoroughly skeptical of the entire scientific establishment that they reject something that is universally accepted among scientists and for which a great deal of evidence exists.

Considering the majority of "FEers" on this forum have strong backgrounds in science and philosophy and are not religious (if you don't believe me on this, please for arguements sake assume it to be true), how can it hurt you or the world based on what shape they claim the Earth is?
It really can't.

Why do you believe that they are telling you the truth when they tell you they believe the Earth is flat?  
I don't, and I'm sure some of them are not, but I imagine that many of them are.

Is it a believable statement to claim that the Earth is flat?
Not in the face of the evidence out there.

If if is not a believable statement, why do you believe that they mean it?
Some people believe unbelievable things and refuse to acknowledge contrary evidence. This is not unique to FEers.

What is the difference then between them believing that the Earth is flat and you believing that they actually believe that the Earth is flat?
It is not a believable statement that the Earth is flat. It is a believable statement that people believe the unbelievable.

It is a believable statement that people believe the unbelievable.

How can it be "unbelievable" if people believe it?

The concept of a flat Earth is entirely illogical and goes against every astronomical finding known to man.

Your refusal to aknowledge indisputable fact is beginning to make you sound more stubborn than anything else, as though you have become to so used to repeating this ludicrous argument simply because its too hard to accept the truth.

present us with proof of this so called flat earth and we will have no choice but to believe you.

You never know, pigs just might fly.

How can it be "unbelievable" if people believe it?

When I say that an idea is "unbelievable", I mean that I see no possible way for a rational, sane individual to believe that such an idea is true. However, I have, on multiple occasions, discovered people who believe something that I consider unbelievable, but who seem, in all other ways, to be rational and sane.

For example, I have a hard time understanding how a rational person, confronted with the realities of modern-day instant communications and rapid travel between distant points of the earth, can believe that the earth is flat. In ancient times, when people were born, lived their lives, and died in a small area of the planet, I can see how a flat earth seems like a simple and obvious fact, but even day-to-day experience in the world as it exists in 2006 seems to contradict the idea that the world is flat. I am confronted with evidence of the roundness of the world every time I am about to call my parents, and think to myself, "Well, it's 6:30 here, so it's 4:30 where they are, so they're probably still at work." And yet, there seem to be, here on these forums, rational and sane people who believe that the earth is flat.

David

Why do you care if we care or not?

Good question.  I guess I just find it so blindingly obvious that the world is round that I see no cause to argue that case.  I am much more interested in arguing against what I believe because I feel like I learn a lot more from that (about myself, about the opposing arguements to what I believe, and indeed, about what I do believe).  I argue that the world is flat for a challenge and to learn.  I feel like I get a lot out of it and that it is actually a constructive exercise (mentally).  I made a resolution recently to attempt to make every thing in my life some how constructive.

However I don't understand what people who argue that the Earth is round get out of this.  They aren't taking a challenging position at all, they're taking a very easy position.  I feel that in a debate, when you take the easy road, you learn nothing.  It's much easier to "win" but you don't have to think very much, you don't need to challenge your beliefs and you probably don't learn any new information.  I could argue that the world is round without doing any further research what so ever.  I can't do that argueing that the Earth is flat.

So I don't see taking the round Earth position as personally constructive.  Now the other reason to argue that the Earth is round is if you take this debate as something more than just a hypothetical philosophical debate and instead actually believe that some people believe that the world is flat.  Now I understand that it is a very tough question as to if it is a good exercise or a pointless exercise in correcting peoples wrong opinions so I'll assume that it is a good exercise as all the round Earthers must think. Certainly as somebody with a fairly strong scientific background and an especially strong belief in the philosophy behind science I am strongly athiestic, probably even nihilisitic.  Now if this, as it seems to be, is the reason for people to argue that the Earth is round; because you feel that people actually believe the Earth is flat and you see it as your duty to correct them I really see this as a losing arguement.  As you can probably notice, I've been on this forum for a few months now and I spent about 2 months not posting at all but just reading what everybody said.  Now what I've come to realise is that there are no real flat Earth believers on this forum.  People who argue that the Earth is flat are like me, doing so for reasons other than their actual belief about the world.

There is a quote I see by one user by Mark Twain: "Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society."

If there are actually people who I am wrong about and they actually believe that the Earth is flat then I would say they are naked.  It doesn't matter what they believe because they will have little or no influence on society.  I can think of no genuine flat Earthers (or even non genuine FEs) who have had a significant influence on society in my life time and I find it impossible to believe that FE theory will ever be taught in schools or considered a possible alternative.  It is a ridiculous notion that the Earth is flat.  On this forum there are at the very most 5 believers and most likely 0.  99% of the arguements about if the Earth is flat or not have no imput from people who claim to be genuine believers.  My impression is that the vast majority of RE people have no serious knowledge of either science or philosophy - which is the main topic being debated - and indeed have no idea of what people on this forum actually think.  They just come here, see the name of the forum, know that the Earth is round and that that is a ridiculous opinion and then post some trash attacking the people on this forum and leave.  I see the flat Earth society as a place to question things and the first question I had when I heard of this place was "since I know that the Earth is round, why would people argue otherwise?" - this forum should be about looking further than the surface.  In fact that's what science is about as well.  Somebody who truely followed the philosophy of science would surely observe the forum first, would reach an understand as to the real positions people held on the forum (as opposed to the positions they said they held) and base their arguements on the observations and the nature of the forum.  I think you can read a lot into this forum and can extrapolate out that meaning onto the world.  The symbolism is very powerful and the view of the world seems very accurate.

So I'm curious.  I'm curious to understand what the REers think, not the FEers.  I find it very easy to understand why an intelligent person would argue something such as the world being flat.  I find it very easy to understand why a stupid person would argue why the world is round.  I don't understand at all why an intelligent person would also argue that the world is round.  There are different types of intelligence though.  Perhaps the intelligent people are very clever about the world but very naive about people.  I know that such people exist.

I guess also I wanted to make a point.  There are probable more stupid people who try to argue that the world is round on this forum than any other demographic.  On some plane this topic was an attempt to make them understand that their actions are meaningless.  Not only do they get nothing out of such actions, nobody else gets anything out of it either.  I'm specifically talking about the people who say "U R all Retards.  The earth is round. PWnED n00bs." - I can only explain those people as being stupid and very shallow.

However I don't understand what people who argue that the Earth is round get out of this.  They aren't taking a challenging position at all, they're taking a very easy position.

No, no. Convincing crackpot to something sane is next to impossible.

I seen here very funny thing: when most advocatus diaboli losts in discussions, they behaves like real kooks: dogding questions, evading discussion, pulling bullshit out of their asses...

Beast, most of us is here because we want to get better at debates. Does that answer your question?

FE forum is a sandbox for interesting debates. And it's interesting to observe the psyche of FE believers. It's even more fun to provoke them. It's simply a fun forum. lol.

edit: Btw, you're here too. So what's your excuse?