why does a ships hull vanish before its mast in the horizon?

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why does a ships hull vanish before its mast in the horizon?
« on: November 03, 2011, 08:00:01 PM »
answer that flatties!!!

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markjo

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Re: why does a ships hull vanish before its mast in the horizon?
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2011, 08:17:22 PM »
Read Earth Not a Globe by Parallax (Samuel Birley Rowbotham).
http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za32.htm#page_201
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The Knowledge

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Re: why does a ships hull vanish before its mast in the horizon?
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2011, 03:07:50 PM »
Because the earth looks fl- aargh! But this means it DOESN'T look flat! Something flat doesn't look like that! *head explodes*
Watermelon, Rhubarb Rhubarb, no one believes the Earth is Flat, Peas and Carrots,  walla.

Re: why does a ships hull vanish before its mast in the horizon?
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2011, 07:23:37 AM »
Read Earth Not a Globe by Parallax (Samuel Birley Rowbotham).
http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za32.htm#page_201

Yeah, I read that whole thing and... I'm not convinced he's right.  I don't wanna really get into why I think his theory is wrong, because that would take forever and it wouldn't really accomplish anything anyways.

I WILL bring up the fact that Rowbotham was proven to be a con-man and a charlitan.  He allegedly invented medicine that he claimed could cure anything, and they found out it was little more than a placebo.
...does anyone find it funny that the Flat Earth model is actually round?

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Archibald

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Re: why does a ships hull vanish before its mast in the horizon?
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2011, 10:34:18 AM »
Read Earth Not a Globe by Parallax (Samuel Birley Rowbotham).
http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za32.htm#page_201

Yeah, I read that whole thing and... I'm not convinced he's right.  I don't wanna really get into why I think his theory is wrong, because that would take forever and it wouldn't really accomplish anything anyways.

I WILL bring up the fact that Rowbotham was proven to be a con-man and a charlitan.  He allegedly invented medicine that he claimed could cure anything, and they found out it was little more than a placebo.


Incorrect.  He was labeled as a con man by haters.  The medicine in question was thought to have healing properties by many at that time.  Later on it was discovered that the application of the medicine for what they were attempting to use it for would not foster the desired results.  Of course he was called a con.  Can you tell me why others wouldnt have said that?  Why dont you 'disprove' the ship and the visual effect as noone has done thus far instead of these baseless attacks on Dr. Rowbathom.
For whatever reason you allow Clocktower to derail any thread Archibald posts in.

Re: why does a ships hull vanish before its mast in the horizon?
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2011, 01:18:03 PM »
Incorrect.  He was labeled as a con man by haters.  The medicine in question was thought to have healing properties by many at that time.  Later on it was discovered that the application of the medicine for what they were attempting to use it for would not foster the desired results.  Of course he was called a con.  Can you tell me why others wouldnt have said that?  Why dont you 'disprove' the ship and the visual effect as noone has done thus far instead of these baseless attacks on Dr. Rowbathom.

Of course he was labeled a con man by haters.  People hate con men.  Is it unfair to call someone a con man just because their loyalists don't call him one?

So, I just think he's wrong.  If you look at his first diagram with the lines of perspective, I don't think the vanishing point is at H.  It is at W.  It's just that the ground meets the vanishing point at a more shallow angle than the sky.  His whole theory hinges on the idea that the ground and the sky converge at the same rate of optical slant.  But, they don't.  It's like, if you stand in a hallway more than twice your height, you'll notice that the floor leads to the end at a more shallow angle than the ceiling.  If you lie on the ground and look at the floor at eye level, you'll notice that the floor is level while the ceiling still appears to slant downwards.  Now, as far as the ship is concerned, the hull disappears not because the water meets point H closer than the sky meets point W, it disappears because the earth curves as it approaches point W, and the ship is in a position between H and W, allowing you to see only what's over the hull.  Even if he's correct, the hull is at the same level as the water.  Why would water in the distance come to point H, but an object on the water come to point W?  I think what he's missing is that W is the vanishing point because the ground (line C,W) doesn't really resemble the bottom-most visible line of sight.  In fact, line C,W is totally irrelevant when you're talking about the vanishing point of perspective, because it's an arbitrary line that doesn't matter.  If the ground were not there, everything would converge to point W equally because the ground would not be below you to block your vision.  That chart would be more accurate with another line below E,W that mirrors A,B.


Here you go... let's assume point A and G are top and bottom of the universe, and point C was your eye level.  Point D would be the vanishing point.  Now, let's say line E,F is the ground.  Accordint to Parallax, line E,D would would meet line C,D at a point before D, but why would it?  The ground is going to converge with the vanishing point at a more shallow angle than the sky, so of course line E,D converges at the same point as line A,D.  Why wouldn't it?

But, the original experiments that "Parallax" conducted lead him to believe that the earth was flat because he COULD see an object in its entirety at a point where it was SUPPOSED to disappear under the curviture.  One reason it didn't is because as you increse in altitude, the atmospheric makeup causes light to refract, which discounted the factors used in his experiments.  This light refraction is only possible because as you look straight ahead, you are actually looking upwards into the atmosphere, which wouldn't be possible on a flat Earth.  The original conclusions of the Bedford Level Experiments led Parallax to conclude the Earth was flat.  When a bunch of God-squads jumped on board because they thought it proved the existance of God, that's when all this BS started.  Later, REAL surveyors who knew what they were doing came in and conducted the same experiments, and concluded that the Earth is, without a doubt, round.  Supporters of Parallax... one guy in particular, was actually a hard-core religious fanatic who was charged with libel and jailed for making death threats on the guy who proved Parallax wrong.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 01:39:20 PM by KristaGurl »
...does anyone find it funny that the Flat Earth model is actually round?

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Tausami

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Re: why does a ships hull vanish before its mast in the horizon?
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2011, 01:26:20 PM »
Read Earth Not a Globe by Parallax (Samuel Birley Rowbotham).
http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/za32.htm#page_201

Yeah, I read that whole thing and... I'm not convinced he's right.  I don't wanna really get into why I think his theory is wrong, because that would take forever and it wouldn't really accomplish anything anyways.

I WILL bring up the fact that Rowbotham was proven to be a con-man and a charlitan.  He allegedly invented medicine that he claimed could cure anything, and they found out it was little more than a placebo.

Just because it didn't work doesn't mean he knew that. They said the same things about Coca-Cola.

And the sinking ship effect has a simple answer in the FAQ.
http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=13876.0

iwantobelieve, please don't use this as an excuse to be annoying

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: why does a ships hull vanish before its mast in the horizon?
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2011, 01:45:50 PM »
Glaring misconceptions in the understanding of medicine in the past is not something unique to Rowbotham. I'm not going to torture you with clichés about the Middle Ages, but here's an example I've found particularly amusing:

hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

Re: why does a ships hull vanish before its mast in the horizon?
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2011, 01:50:10 PM »
Glaring misconceptions in the understanding of medicine in the past is not something unique to Rowbotham. I'm not going to torture you with clichés about the Middle Ages, but here's an example I've found particularly amusing:



Yep, and...... I don't see Dr. Batty telling us the world is a cube, either...
...does anyone find it funny that the Flat Earth model is actually round?

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trig

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Re: why does a ships hull vanish before its mast in the horizon?
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2011, 02:02:58 PM »
Why would water in the distance come to point H, but an object on the water come to point W?
Nicely put. Rowbotham requires magical properties of the "water" and of the "boat" and of the "mast" so they can disappear for the reason he wants them to, not for the simple reason that the water is curved.

Just to remember something that has been said a lot of times, the "laws of perspective" that Rowbotham talks about are drawing techniques, not physical laws or theories. They are guidelines for the people who draw buildings or landscapes, so they will have some "3D" appearance.

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: why does a ships hull vanish before its mast in the horizon?
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2011, 02:20:10 PM »
Yep, and...... I don't see Dr. Batty telling us the world is a cube, either...
So, if he's not saying the Earth is a cube, it's okay, but if he were, his medicine would be an obvious con? Now, that's a very interesting approach.
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

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markjo

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Re: why does a ships hull vanish before its mast in the horizon?
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2011, 02:36:12 PM »
Yep, and...... I don't see Dr. Batty telling us the world is a cube, either...
So, if he's not saying the Earth is a cube, it's okay, but if he were, his medicine would be an obvious con? Now, that's a very interesting approach.
Nah.  It just means that Dr. Batty stuck to one con while Dr. Birley moved on to another.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Zogg

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Re: why does a ships hull vanish before its mast in the horizon?
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2011, 04:55:20 PM »
Let's consider Rowbotham's argument: In fig.1 (below) we see that the hull is visible under a smaller angle (green) than the mast (red). Rowbothams argument is that this smaller angle is why the hull disappears before the mast. (ENAG, Chapter XIV: "Any distinctive part of a receding object becomes invisible before the whole or any larger part of the same object.")

However, in fig.2, the hull appears under a larger angle than the mast and funnels. Does this mean that in this case, the funnels disappear "before any larger part", in particular the hull?

« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 04:59:38 PM by Zogg »

Re: why does a ships hull vanish before its mast in the horizon?
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2011, 07:28:08 PM »
So, if he's not saying the Earth is a cube, it's okay, but if he were, his medicine would be an obvious con? Now, that's a very interesting approach.
Nein.  What I'm saying is that, if you're a con man, you're a con man.  And being a con man brings about a natural distrust in what you say and what you believe.  Earlier I was saying that Rush Limbaugh abusing Oxycontin doesn't discount conservatism.  Likewise, Parallax being a con man doesn't disprove FE Theory, but... conservatism isn't a fringe belief.  FE Theory is.  Parallax's faulty and since disproven theories on perspective are the genesis of the flat earth movement.  When you discount HIS account, you don't really have that much left.  Unlike Rush Limbaugh, you still have plenty of conservatives to keep the conviction alive and continue to give it credence. 

So, in short... being a con man sucks no matter who you are, and when you lie about shit, it makes it hard to trust you.  So, if Dr. Batty tried to tell me the world was a cube, him being a con man would raise my suspicion as opposed to him being... you know... a REAL scientist living in the 21st century... which the FE Theory doesn't really have.

And besides, the abundance of quackery in his day even further proves that he was a con man.  If everyone was a quack back then, why would he stand out as a charlatan?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 07:51:33 PM by KristaGurl »
...does anyone find it funny that the Flat Earth model is actually round?

Re: why does a ships hull vanish before its mast in the horizon?
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2011, 07:35:18 PM »
Let's consider Rowbotham's argument: In fig.1 (below) we see that the hull is visible under a smaller angle (green) than the mast (red). Rowbothams argument is that this smaller angle is why the hull disappears before the mast. (ENAG, Chapter XIV: "Any distinctive part of a receding object becomes invisible before the whole or any larger part of the same object.")

However, in fig.2, the hull appears under a larger angle than the mast and funnels. Does this mean that in this case, the funnels disappear "before any larger part", in particular the hull?

See, I was operating under the assumption that MOST ships have a bigger hull than mast.  I mean, in the picture I was given, I would certainly assume the hull is bigger (see below).  Like, in your picture, the sail LOOKS bigger than the hull, but remember, the sail is flat.  So actually, according to RowYourBoat-ham, the sail would disappear first!



...in fact, what manner of boat has a bigger mast than hull?  Does that even really exist?

HOW can anyone look at this picture and tell me with a straight face that you can't see the bottom of the ship because it's smaller than the top???  Even IF that were true, you wouldn't see the bottom-most visible portion flush against the water, it would appear to float above the water.  If the ship were level with the observer as it would be on a flat earth, and you couldn't see the bottom of it because it's too far away, why does the visible portion then lower to become flush against the water? 
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 07:43:26 PM by KristaGurl »
...does anyone find it funny that the Flat Earth model is actually round?

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Zogg

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Re: why does a ships hull vanish before its mast in the horizon?
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2011, 01:50:17 AM »
In addition, Row-the-boat-tam's argument is based on his claim that the ship hull visually disappears because it's angular size drops below a minute of a degree. Now, seen through binoculars and telescope it's angular size at the hoizon raises waaaaay above this treshold - how comes that it still disappears?

Re: why does a ships hull vanish before its mast in the horizon?
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2011, 05:56:01 AM »
- how comes that it still disappears?

Because the earth is round and the bottom is behind the curvature :P
...does anyone find it funny that the Flat Earth model is actually round?

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Zogg

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Re: why does a ships hull vanish before its mast in the horizon?
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2011, 06:35:08 AM »
- how comes that it still disappears?

Because the earth is round and the bottom is behind the curvature :P

I agree, but I would like to see an answer of FEers.