There are no real believers.

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Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #60 on: November 19, 2011, 05:34:22 AM »
My senses cannot detect any movement of the Earth. Can you? How?
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

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The Knowledge

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Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #61 on: November 19, 2011, 06:02:29 AM »
I'll be back later tonight when I have some free time to respond.

Busy publishing your "book" are you?  ;)
Watermelon, Rhubarb Rhubarb, no one believes the Earth is Flat, Peas and Carrots,  walla.

Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #62 on: November 19, 2011, 08:39:25 AM »
My senses cannot detect any movement of the Earth. Can you? How?

I can see the procession of a pendulum, does that count?
You, sir, can't comprehend the idea of bottoms.

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The Knowledge

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Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #63 on: November 19, 2011, 08:59:39 AM »
My senses cannot detect any movement of the Earth. Can you? How?

I can see the procession of a pendulum, does that count?

They pretend that it either doesn't happen or that the pendulum has secret "motors" put in it (presumably by one of the hundreds of thousands of conspiracy members) to fake this movement.
Watermelon, Rhubarb Rhubarb, no one believes the Earth is Flat, Peas and Carrots,  walla.

Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #64 on: November 19, 2011, 09:04:57 AM »
Or a single guy who"debunked" the experiment preferably a long time ago.
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

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Mrs. Peach

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Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #65 on: November 19, 2011, 09:22:25 AM »
My senses cannot detect any movement of the Earth. Can you? How?

I can see the procession of a pendulum, does that count?

They pretend that it either doesn't happen or that the pendulum has secret "motors" put in it (presumably by one of the hundreds of thousands of conspiracy members) to fake this movement.

No pretense.  Duly considering the Allais effect, current thought among some of us here is that the observed precession is related to the movement of the sun.

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Mizuki

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Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #66 on: November 19, 2011, 09:55:07 AM »
'There are no real believers.'


I think that if anyone takes enough time to read the countless threads on this forum, they will most certainly find that in amongst the fakes, the trolls (i can't stand that word!), the abnormally argumentative, the wannabe intellectuals, and the big-time forum debaters, there are indeed intelligent people here who genuinely believe that the earth is not a globe.

Mizuki x
"Earth is a maximal sphere in a cyclical space and its surface therefore a total plane, the equator plane of the Cosmos. The (total) plane, as well as the straight line and space as a whole, is flat, without curvature yet closed, running back on itself."

Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #67 on: November 19, 2011, 11:01:42 AM »
Duly considering the Allais effect, current thought among some of us here is that the observed precession is related to the movement of the sun.

Widely discarded.
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

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Mrs. Peach

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Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2011, 11:14:14 AM »

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John Davis

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Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #69 on: November 19, 2011, 11:26:52 AM »
I'll be back later tonight when I have some free time to respond.

Busy publishing your "book" are you?  ;)
Yes, that is currently my #1 project when I have time.  Unfortunately time is not of huge supply.  I am still running my business, am a stay at home dad, and have several other obligations that are way past due.

A flat Earth is what we see; prove to me that what I see is false.  Put up, or shut up.

So if we see a flat Earth, it has to be flat?
Do you have trouble reading?  Of course that is not the case.  However, if you wish us to believe something that directly contradicts our personal experiences you need to give evidence.

I was merely pointing the weak argument. Weak also is the argument "you wish us to believe something that directly contradicts our personal experiences". This is typical anti-scientific argument.
Its not anti-scientific at all.  We just expect you to make an argument if you wish us to believe something.  If anything this is the foundation of science.

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Our senses tell us that we live on a motionless Earth. It's what we feel. Whichever model we chose, FE or RE, we know that the Earth moves, which is in direct contradictions with our personal experience.
Incorrect.  Our senses tell us we are not on a motionless earth.  We feel a pull downwards constantly at 9.81 m/s/s.

But I see your point, and knew of it previous to my post.  Thats fine if the truth contradicts our senses, as it often does (we are imperfect.)  However, a strong argument has to be made.  This was the case with the Earth moving, Einsteins relativity, or any other claim.
Quantum Ab Hoc

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John Davis

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Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #70 on: November 19, 2011, 11:28:24 AM »
REers spread RE misinformation all the time.  Its because they like feeling smart and are confident in their beliefs. Have you ever heard someone spouting off nonsense about toliets flushing opposite depending on your hemisphere of locality?   
Yep.  And, look... I'll prove that it's misinformation FOR you:
http://www.snopes.com/science/coriolis.asp

See?  objectivity.  You can't disvalidate the mountain of misinformation spread around in your group by pointing out the anthill of misinformation spread around in my group.  Especially when FET is a solid bank of theories, and RET is open to objection and comes with a known pretense that we don't always have ALL the answers, and we're open to any truth as long as it can be proven as such.  Which, in my book, makes RET a science and FET more like a Religion.  And, by the way... why is the toilet flush myth a part of RET anyways?  How is that getting lumped into it?  It has no scientific basis... RE doesn't depend on the phenomenon... is it because some RE'ers believe it?  As if... a few people who happen to believe in RET are pedophiles, so pedophilia is a result of RET?

See, here's how it goes:

FET:
Bible says the world is flat -> Need to proove the world is flat -> Decide what science supports a flat earth theory -> FET Belief structure
This is incorrect. 

Quote
RET:
Objective discovery -> Collected facts lean scientists to draw conclusions -> Theories prove those conclusions -> RET Belief structure.
Also incorrect.
Quote
Now consider this version of RET:
Reason to lie -> NASA needs to proove the world is round -> Decide what science supports a round earth theory -> RET Blief structure.
I, for one, Believe in no conspiracy.
Quote
See, without a reason why NASA would be lying to us, I don't even see really any motivation behind RE misinformation even IF RET came from religious fanatics and occultists with alterior motives.  So, the FET chain of knowledge above makes sense, but the second version of the RET chain of knowledge doesn't.  It's simple algebra.  1+2=3.  But, you can't prove that a+2=3 without the value of a.  You guys are trying to convince us the equation equals three, but are telling us you don't know why a = 1.  That's dumb.

Sure, we can speculate, but FET has a KNOWN history based on religious propaganda.  RET has a KNOWN history based on objective scientific discovery and proof.  The only ones who disagree with that are fringe FE people who grasp at straws to discount opposing views.  See the difference?  So, now what you have, is a very tiny group following the age old saying, "we're right and everyone else is wrong."
It seems to me that you are ignorant about flat earth theory and are making wild assumptions about the history of our modern flat earth movement.
Quantum Ab Hoc

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John Davis

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Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #71 on: November 19, 2011, 11:29:15 AM »
The modern FE movement, whether you'd like to recognize it or not, is more or less defined by this very forum.  While there are naturally still FEers who are religious (as indeed there are respected scientists who are religious), there are a great many who aren't.  It's become as secularized as any other field of science.  So the whole argument that FE is religiously motivated is, in the modern age, a complete straw man.
I disagree, our FE movement is defined by this forum.  Not the flat earth movement.  There are far more local religious groups for flat earthers than local secular groups and movements.  Ignoring this, our movement is also a part of a large movement (though unorganized) of local secular groups that do not visit this site (for various reasons including the trolls here.)

Fair enough.  Perhaps I'm a victim of bias here; Wikipedia certainly seems to think that this forum is central to the movement.  One way or the other I don't think it alters the content of my argument.
No, its not your fault at all.  I used to believe the same thing, and as far as I know, I'm the only person that is making any effort to try to connect these groups and categorize them.  Its a perfectly understandable position, I just disagree with it from what I've seen so far.
Quantum Ab Hoc

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markjo

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Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #72 on: November 19, 2011, 02:02:31 PM »

Widely discarded.

By whom?

The mainstream physics community.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allais_effect
Quote
It has been speculated to be unexplained by standard physical models of gravitation, but recent mainstream  publications tend rather to posit conventional explanations for the reported observations.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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The Knowledge

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Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #73 on: November 19, 2011, 02:44:50 PM »
My senses cannot detect any movement of the Earth. Can you? How?

I can see the procession of a pendulum, does that count?

They pretend that it either doesn't happen or that the pendulum has secret "motors" put in it (presumably by one of the hundreds of thousands of conspiracy members) to fake this movement.

No pretense.  Duly considering the Allais effect, current thought among some of us here is that the observed precession is related to the movement of the sun.

The amusing thing about this example is that in order to detect the Allais effect, precessional movement due to earth's rotation has to be detected and accounted for too. If Allais was able to detect this phenomenon you can bet your bottom dollar he'd have noticed a pendulum not Foucaulting properly.
Watermelon, Rhubarb Rhubarb, no one believes the Earth is Flat, Peas and Carrots,  walla.

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Mrs. Peach

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Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #74 on: November 19, 2011, 05:04:51 PM »

Widely discarded.

By whom?

The mainstream physics community.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allais_effect
Quote
It has been speculated to be unexplained by standard physical models of gravitation, but recent mainstream  publications tend rather to posit conventional explanations for the reported observations.

Are you offering that as an answer?  "Recent mainstream publications" is not a good answer as to 'who.'

There's one thing you should take into account,  markjo.  Academia is not all sweetness and light.  The phenom of a wikipedia struggle amongst factions should not come as a surprise to anyone here though.  If the idea has really been discarded, explain why the anomaly is still investigated after fifty years during solar eclipses and the data has been "yes, no and maybe" in somewhat equal proportions. 

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markjo

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Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #75 on: November 19, 2011, 07:00:18 PM »
If the idea has really been discarded, explain why the anomaly is still investigated after fifty years during solar eclipses and the data has been "yes, no and maybe" in somewhat equal proportions.

Perhaps in this case "discarded" is short for "not widely accepted until more definitive results results are observed".
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Mrs. Peach

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Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #76 on: November 19, 2011, 07:55:51 PM »

Perhaps in this case "discarded" is short for "not widely accepted until more definitive results results are observed".

Not widely accepted is a far piece from discarded.

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markjo

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Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #77 on: November 19, 2011, 08:59:40 PM »

Perhaps in this case "discarded" is short for "not widely accepted until more definitive results results are observed".

Not widely accepted is a far piece from discarded.

Not for those who haven't accepted it.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

?

Mrs. Peach

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Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #78 on: November 19, 2011, 11:02:16 PM »

Perhaps in this case "discarded" is short for "not widely accepted until more definitive results results are observed".

Not widely accepted is a far piece from discarded.

Not for those who haven't accepted it.

Who are these people that you are referring to?  I mean other than anonymous Wikipedia editors.

Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #79 on: November 20, 2011, 03:24:03 AM »
Scientifics.

You know, they publish articles which available on the net. Look for it.
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

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markjo

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Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #80 on: November 20, 2011, 07:37:45 AM »
Who are these people that you are referring to?  I mean other than anonymous Wikipedia editors.

Members of the Conspiracy, obviously.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

?

Mrs. Peach

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Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #81 on: November 20, 2011, 10:09:17 AM »
Who are these people that you are referring to?  I mean other than anonymous Wikipedia editors.

Members of the Conspiracy, obviously.

Dumbing down the level of discussion is not something I have a really huge interest in.  But just for the record, markjo, you've invoked the conspiracy and injected sun-shrimp into the discussions just in the space of one day.  Would you do me a favor and explain your motives?  Have your previous ambitions for this site changed?  Just a short blurb will do.  :)

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #82 on: November 20, 2011, 11:43:16 AM »
Scientifics.
Oh, so now we have entered the realm of using non-existent words as answers to "who?" questions.
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #83 on: November 20, 2011, 01:29:05 PM »
Being patronized by you is such an honour! (makes it easier for you to avoid the real issues of FE)
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #84 on: November 20, 2011, 07:19:03 PM »
Scientifics.
Oh, so now we have entered the realm of using non-existent words as answers to "who?" questions.

What's the difference?  You suggest the use of non-existent math to explain impossible phenomena
...does anyone find it funny that the Flat Earth model is actually round?

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #85 on: November 20, 2011, 07:22:13 PM »
You suggest the use of non-existent math
Please present a mathematical explanation performed by me that you believe to be incorrect. In other words, back your claims up. It's good practice.
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #86 on: November 20, 2011, 07:42:10 PM »
You suggest the use of non-existent math
Please present a mathematical explanation performed by me that you believe to be incorrect. In other words, back your claims up. It's good practice.

Yeah, I will as soon as you bring us some of this good ole "flat earth math" you've been talking about.  ...and a map.  A map to show how flat earth math describes a circle as NOT A SPHERE!!!
...does anyone find it funny that the Flat Earth model is actually round?

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #87 on: November 21, 2011, 12:42:10 AM »
this good ole "flat earth math" you've been talking about.
I have never talked about any "flat earth math". Where did you get that crazy idea from? Did you just make it up?
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)

Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #88 on: November 21, 2011, 01:23:19 AM »
You know, your whole scam about projections and how the maps you present us are FE maps or how the only accurate map you can show us would be a 1:1 scale.
“The Earth looks flat, therefore it is” FEers wisdom.

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PizzaPlanet

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Re: There are no real believers.
« Reply #89 on: November 21, 2011, 01:51:16 PM »
Which part of that is "flat earth math"? None of these statements were derived mathematically.
hacking your precious forum as we speak 8) 8) 8)