UltraViolet!

Quote from: Lorddave on November 04, 2011, 02:28:13 AM

Plus the humans are there anyway

Incorrect. If people don't need bank tellers, you can employ less bank tellers.

What makes you think they haven't reached the minimum number of tellers already?

What makes you think they haven't reached the minimum number of tellers already?

The fact that the minimum is 0.

Quote from: Lorddave on November 04, 2011, 03:08:06 AM

What makes you think they haven't reached the minimum number of tellers already?

The fact that the minimum is 0.

And how would I get a roll of quarters? Or ask questions about my account? Or close my account?

Quote from: markjo on November 03, 2011, 06:38:30 PM

Quote from: PizzaPlanet on November 03, 2011, 10:37:09 AM

Quote from: markjo on November 03, 2011, 10:32:48 AM

I could never understand electronic transaction/ATM fees.  Either you pay for the convenience of doing it yourself or you schlep down to the bank where a live(?) person (presumably on the bank's payroll) will do the exact same transaction for you for free.  Only on a flat earth could this possibly make any sense.

Well, the key point is that it generally doesn't cost any money (or it costs less than the energy you'll spend to reach the bank) in most countries.

That's my point.  If I'm saving the bank money by taking a human employee (or even a whole branch office) out of the equation, then why should it cost me more money?  Which is cheaper, an employee or an ATM?

You only get charged if you use an ATM from a different bank than yours. Plus the humans are there anyway so by using an ATM you're not saving the bank anything except floor space.

How many humans are there when the bank is closed but the ATM and on-line banking are up and running?

And how would I get a roll of quarters?

Why would you need a roll of quarters in the era of debit cards? Regardless, you could order them on-line, or a small improvement to ATMs could be introduced, resulting in infinite win.

Or ask questions about my account?

Live chat or e-mail. Alternatively, you could read the abundance of information about your account already available rather than expect someone to read it out for you.

Or close my account?

On-line banking.

Why would you need a roll of quarters in the era of debit cards?
...

One needs quarters to put into the slot at the car wash.

My bank pays interest on my account if I go paperless.  They also know my name when I walk in their door.

One needs quarters to put into the slot at the car wash.

All that means is that your car-wash service needs to hurry up and start accepting debit cards already.
Also, do you go to the bank and get a roll of quarters so that you can use the car wash? Gee, how often do you have your car washed?

My bank pays interest on my account if I go paperless.  They also know my name when I walk in their door.

I'm sure you can find someone else to know you by name. You don't need a bank for that!

Why on earth would the car wash wish to restrict their customers to people with bank cards?  How would all the kids get their cars vacuumed?  Why would any bank want a string of twenty-five cent entries clogging the system?  The bank that knows your name and face lets you into your account after you locked it up cause you screwed up your password three times and then presents you with a peppermint. 


Then there's no possibility of somebody stealing my bank box key and forging my signature either.  Well, they could steal my face I suppose but not without a little trouble.
 

Why on earth would the car wash wish to restrict their customers to people with bank cards?

Why on Earth would the car wash wish to restrict their customers to people with quarters?

I didn't say they need to stop accepting quarters. I said they need to start accepting debit cards.

How would all the kids get their cars vacuumed?

Using their debit card, which, in a healthy system, they would have.

Why would any bank want a string of twenty-five cent entries clogging the system?

Why would 25-cent entries "clog the system" any more than 5-dollar entries? And why is "clogging the system" (which doesn't happen) bad, whilst paying money to somehow whose only purpose is to hand you quarters and overpriced peppermints is great and necessary?

The bank that knows your name and face lets you into your account after you locked it up cause you screwed up your password three times and then presents you with a peppermint.

Live chat doesn't know my name and face, but I'm not sure why that's important. They'll let me into my account after I've confirmed my details with them (which they are legally obliged to do, even if they did know me). And that peppermint is the most expensive peppermint of your life. You'd be much better off with buying your own peppermints than paying bank tellers.

Then there's no possibility of somebody stealing my bank box key and forging my signature either.  Well, they could steal my face I suppose but not without a little trouble.

Yes, I've already called out on the terrible, terrible security of American banking. Doesn't happen elsewhere too much for the most part. Furthermore (in a healthy system) the law built around debit cards clearly states that the bank has to return all unauthorised charges, and that it's their responsibility to prove that the charge they've refused to refund has indeed been authorised. If someone snatches your wallet - you've lost all the money you've had in it; if someone steals your debit card details and uses them - you lose nothing, and you're just temporarily inconvenienced while waiting for the money to come back. As debit cards have limits on them, you'd likely only temporarily lack a few hundred dollars.

What does this have to do with my safety deposit bank box nestled in their nice fireproof vault? 

As to the peppermint being expensive, I incur no banking charges.  As I said, my bank pays me interest on my account. 

Quote from: PizzaPlanet on November 02, 2011, 05:48:39 PM

Hmm, that's very weird too. Here they'd rather have someone have an empty account with them than not have the account with them - just because it costs nothing to keep it up, and that person might pay some money in one day.

That is American Capitalism, you are doing it wrong if you aren't trying to make just short term money. One of our major banks has also said that starting next year it is going to charge monthly fees on using debt cards.

Assuming you're talking about BOA, they announced that they aren't going to because of public backlash. Apparently a shitload of people changed banks over it.

So, key notes:

Businesses pay a fee to credit card companies for each transactions.
http://www.merchant-accounts.com/retail-merchant-account.html

So they charge the customer AND the business.  Hence why you don't see debit card readers everywhere.

As for why I need quarters:
Laundromat. 

What does this have to do with my safety deposit bank box nestled in their nice fireproof vault?

The fact that you wouldn't need a box if all your assets were electronic. You don't need paper money nor coinage. It is obsolete and we should look into eradicating it completely.

As to the peppermint being expensive, I incur no banking charges.  As I said, my bank pays me interest on my account. 

Your interest would be considerably higher if part of your earnings didn't go to pay for redundant bank tellers sitting there, issuing quarters and peppermints.

Businesses pay a fee to credit card companies for each transactions.
http://www.merchant-accounts.com/retail-merchant-account.html

So they charge the customer AND the business.  Hence why you don't see debit card readers everywhere.

The bank pays a fee to bank tellers for each day of work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment

So they charge the business, AND, through the business, the customer. Hence why you don't see bank tellers everywhere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_bank

As for why I need quarters:
Laundromat.

Buy a washing machine.
Also, do you need so many quarters that you need to go to the bank and get a roll of these just for the laundromat and car wash?

Why on earth would the car wash wish to restrict their customers to people with bank cards?

Doesn't your car wash have a change machine?

As for why I need quarters:
Laundromat.

Doesn't your laundromat have a change machine?

Quote from: Lorddave on November 05, 2011, 06:12:18 PM

Businesses pay a fee to credit card companies for each transactions.
http://www.merchant-accounts.com/retail-merchant-account.html

So they charge the customer AND the business.  Hence why you don't see debit card readers everywhere.

The bank pays a fee to bank tellers for each day of work.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment

Yes and? 

So they charge the business, AND, through the business, the customer. Hence why you don't see bank tellers everywhere.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_bank

Yes, they charge all of their customers, so why should their customers use their product?  What's the point?  Get cash, pay cash.  No fees and with so many ATMs, it's just as easy.

Quote from: Lorddave on November 05, 2011, 06:12:18 PM

As for why I need quarters:
Laundromat.

Buy a washing machine.
Also, do you need so many quarters that you need to go to the bank and get a roll of these just for the laundromat and car wash?

I live in an apartment.  2nd floor.  No washing machine available.
The laundry machines in the apartment building's basement are only $1.25 each so it's not bad.  A roll of quarters get's me through a few weeks.  They have no change machines.

My apartment's laundromat makes you buy a card from a machine, and only lets you recharge it with cash (and doesn't accept quarters strangely enough).

Yes, they charge all of their customers, so why should their customers use their product?  What's the point?  Get cash, pay cash.  No fees and with so many ATMs, it's just as easy.

Wait, have you just changed sides? I'm saying that bank tellers are redundant, because ATMs are not more expensive and very easy to use. You were protecting bank tellers. Now you seem to agree with me.

I live in an apartment.  2nd floor.  No washing machine available.
The laundry machines in the apartment building's basement are only $1.25 each so it's not bad.  A roll of quarters get's me through a few weeks.  They have no change machines.

Like I said, this only means that you either need a change machine or laundromats that accept debit cards. Laundromats aren't a good excuse to keep bank branches up.

Quote from: Lorddave on November 06, 2011, 09:01:52 AM

Yes, they charge all of their customers, so why should their customers use their product?  What's the point?  Get cash, pay cash.  No fees and with so many ATMs, it's just as easy.

Wait, have you just changed sides? I'm saying that bank tellers are redundant, because ATMs are not more expensive and very easy to use. You were protecting bank tellers. Now you seem to agree with me.

No, I'm simply saying that ATMs are great for getting money from your account.  Tellers have far more uses than that including answering questions that a computer isn't capable of answering as well as a human.  Or for performing tasks not associated with dispensing money.

Plus, as much as I love technology, having technology run our lives instead of other people doesn't seem like a good idea.

Quote from: Lorddave on November 06, 2011, 09:01:52 AM

I live in an apartment.  2nd floor.  No washing machine available.
The laundry machines in the apartment building's basement are only $1.25 each so it's not bad.  A roll of quarters get's me through a few weeks.  They have no change machines.

Like I said, this only means that you either need a change machine or laundromats that accept debit cards. Laundromats aren't a good excuse to keep bank branches up.

No but it helps.
Besides, the physical cash needs to be stored somewhere as well as paper records of the accounts.

Tellers have far more uses than that including answering questions that a computer isn't capable of answering as well as a human.

That's why I've left live chat in. You just don't need branches with tellers inside.

Or for performing tasks not associated with dispensing money.

What do you have in mind?

Plus, as much as I love technology, having technology run our lives instead of other people doesn't seem like a good idea.

No one's talking about technology running our lives. It would run them to the exact same extent it is right now.

Besides, the physical cash needs to be stored somewhere as well as paper records of the accounts.

We don't need any of that.

Quote from: Lorddave on November 06, 2011, 09:55:20 AM

Tellers have far more uses than that including answering questions that a computer isn't capable of answering as well as a human.

That's why I've left live chat in. You just don't need branches with tellers inside.

You assume that I have a computer.  Many poor people do not have computers but still have bank accounts.  This is an error.

Quote from: Lorddave on November 06, 2011, 09:55:20 AM

Or for performing tasks not associated with dispensing money.

What do you have in mind?

My account has been hacked into.  I can't get online with my password anymore and my debit card has been locked due to having all the money in my account taken out too quickly. Please help.

Quote from: Lorddave on November 06, 2011, 09:55:20 AM

Plus, as much as I love technology, having technology run our lives instead of other people doesn't seem like a good idea.

No one's talking about technology running our lives. It would run them to the exact same extent it is right now.

Incorrect.
When you remove a job from a human and give it to a computer, the skills and knowledge of how to perform that job can become lost.  So in the event of a power outage, you can't get any money from the bank. Or perform any kind of transactions.

Quote from: Lorddave on November 06, 2011, 09:55:20 AM

Besides, the physical cash needs to be stored somewhere as well as paper records of the accounts.

We don't need any of that.

....
Ok.  So when the bank get's hacked and it's accounts wiped, I guess all that money you saved up for your kid's college education isn't important to you.  Good to know.

Fact is, machines break down.  Systems break down.  An internet cable get's cut or the main data link server dies.  Whatever the case.  If you don't have a paper record, the system becomes worthless.  Here's a true story:

A War Vet and his daughter go into a vet hospital for treatment after heart surgery.  It was a standard follow up procedure, nothing major. 
He walks in, tells the woman at the desk why he's here and the woman replies: "I'm sorry, I can't do anything.  The system is down so we can't access your medical records."
He told them again why he was here.
The response was something like "We can't perform any procedure on you without verifying your medical history".

This is a very fair and correct procedure.  Never perform any medical procedure without knowing what was done before and don't always trust the patient to remember the details.

So the procedure he needed to get was denied because the system was down and their paper trail was down in archives and would take hours if not days to get out.

Now I'm not saying that an electronic database isn't worth having, but if you don't have a backup that doesn't rely on the primary system then you have nothing worth keeping.

You assume that I have a computer.  Many poor people do not have computers but still have bank accounts.  This is an error.

Good point. Let's add phone support.

My account has been hacked into.  I can't get online with my password anymore and my debit card has been locked due to having all the money in my account taken out too quickly. Please help.

Yeah, let's definitely add phone support.

Incorrect.
When you remove a job from a human and give it to a computer, the skills and knowledge of how to perform that job can become lost.  So in the event of a power outage, you can't get any money from the bank. Or perform any kind of transactions.

You mean the job of bookkeeping that computers already do, or is there something I'm missing?

....
Ok.  So when the bank get's hacked and it's accounts wiped, I guess all that money you saved up for your kid's college education isn't important to you.  Good to know.

Come on, you're supposed to know IT. Have you heard of backups and georedundancy?

[...]
Now I'm not saying that an electronic database isn't worth having, but if you don't have a backup that doesn't rely on the primary system then you have nothing worth keeping.

Oh, you do know about backups. Why the whole hassle, then?

Quote from: Lorddave on November 06, 2011, 04:27:08 PM

You assume that I have a computer.  Many poor people do not have computers but still have bank accounts.  This is an error.

Good point. Let's add phone support.

Quote from: Lorddave on November 06, 2011, 04:27:08 PM

My account has been hacked into.  I can't get online with my password anymore and my debit card has been locked due to having all the money in my account taken out too quickly. Please help.

Yeah, let's definitely add phone support.

Except it makes identification more difficult.  It's hard to know someone is who they say they are when you can't see their face or get a picture ID from them.  All you can get is a Social Security Number and maybe a password.

Here's something.  Let's say I'm a 13 year old kid.  Without a bank teller, I go online, open an account, sign an agreement, and take out a loan.   Why not?  It's not like there is anyone who can verify that I'm over 18 and can enter into a legally binding agreement.  Even signing up for a bank account is illegal since I, as a minor, can not enter into a legally binding agreement without parental consent.   

Quote from: Lorddave on November 06, 2011, 04:27:08 PM

Incorrect.
When you remove a job from a human and give it to a computer, the skills and knowledge of how to perform that job can become lost.  So in the event of a power outage, you can't get any money from the bank. Or perform any kind of transactions.

You mean the job of bookkeeping that computers already do, or is there something I'm missing?

There's more than just bookkeeping but that's one of them.  Computers may be incapable of making a mistake, but that doesn't mean we should rely on them.  It's like skipping basic Arithmetic because we have calculators.

Quote from: Lorddave on November 06, 2011, 04:27:08 PM

....
Ok.  So when the bank get's hacked and it's accounts wiped, I guess all that money you saved up for your kid's college education isn't important to you.  Good to know.

Come on, you're supposed to know IT. Have you heard of backups and georedundancy?

Quote from: Lorddave on November 06, 2011, 04:27:08 PM

[...]
Now I'm not saying that an electronic database isn't worth having, but if you don't have a backup that doesn't rely on the primary system then you have nothing worth keeping.

Oh, you do know about backups. Why the whole hassle, then?

Of course I know about backups, but a backup system doesn't help if your backup relies on what failed in the first place.
Ex:
If your bank loses power no amount of electronic backups, regardless of where they are, is going to help you.
Or maybe the ATM's hardware dies.


Should banks be required to keep a spare device for every bit of hardware they have?

And what about things that can't be replaced easily?  It takes time, maybe even days to fix some items.  Should they really stay closed that long just because they didn't bother having a paper record?

Except it makes identification more difficult.  It's hard to know someone is who they say they are when you can't see their face or get a picture ID from them.  All you can get is a Social Security Number and maybe a password.

In the 21st century? Don't make me laugh. The possibilities are endless and ready to implement.

Here's something.  Let's say I'm a 13 year old kid.  Without a bank teller, I go online, open an account, sign an agreement, and take out a loan.   Why not?

Because you have failed to pass the security countermeasures. Also, no bank tellers != no people running the bank.

It's not like there is anyone who can verify that I'm over 18 and can enter into a legally binding agreement.

Incorrect. This would be correct 60 years ago.

There's more than just bookkeeping but that's one of them.  Computers may be incapable of making a mistake, but that doesn't mean we should rely on them.  It's like skipping basic Arithmetic because we have calculators.

No, it's not. Skipping education is not the same as saving everyone money by firing redundant employees and liquidating redundant facilities.

Of course I know about backups, but a backup system doesn't help if your backup relies on what failed in the first place.

What?

If your bank loses power no amount of electronic backups, regardless of where they are, is going to help you.

Again, we live in the 21st century. Most major banks are huge international corporations. If we lose power globally, shit is going to suck, but I doubt bank tellers will help prevent this.

Or maybe the ATM's hardware dies.

You go to another ATM. There are lots of them.

Should banks be required to keep a spare device for every bit of hardware they have?

No. Several georedundant backup databases are more than enough.

And what about things that can't be replaced easily?

Such as?

Should they really stay closed that long just because they didn't bother having a paper record?

No. Luckily, backups aren't an alien concept to humanity.

Quote from: Lorddave on November 06, 2011, 05:37:09 PM

Except it makes identification more difficult.  It's hard to know someone is who they say they are when you can't see their face or get a picture ID from them.  All you can get is a Social Security Number and maybe a password.

In the 21st century? Don't make me laugh. The possibilities are endless and ready to implement.

What like Biometrics?  Yes I'm sure there are people lining up to give their finger prints and retinal scans to the bank.  Americans have enough of a problem being finger printed, what makes you think they'd be happy to submit to such things for the benefit of the bank?

Quote from: Lorddave on November 06, 2011, 05:37:09 PM

Here's something.  Let's say I'm a 13 year old kid.  Without a bank teller, I go online, open an account, sign an agreement, and take out a loan.   Why not?

Because you have failed to pass the security countermeasures. Also, no bank tellers != no people running the bank.

I am unfamiliar with such countermeasures.  Please enlighten me.

Quote from: Lorddave on November 06, 2011, 05:37:09 PM

It's not like there is anyone who can verify that I'm over 18 and can enter into a legally binding agreement.

Incorrect. This would be correct 60 years ago.

See above.

Quote from: Lorddave on November 06, 2011, 05:37:09 PM

There's more than just bookkeeping but that's one of them.  Computers may be incapable of making a mistake, but that doesn't mean we should rely on them.  It's like skipping basic Arithmetic because we have calculators.

No, it's not. Skipping education is not the same as saving everyone money by firing redundant employees and liquidating redundant facilities.

You're not saving money for the people you fire.  You are, in fact, making them poor AND removing a vital stepping stone in work experience.  One doesn't become a grocery store manager without first being a cashier.
Which brings to another point: Self-Checkouts.  These should make cashiers redundant and worthless yet for some reason they're not as popular as actual cashiers.  I suspect the same reasoning exists for tellers as well.

Quote from: Lorddave on November 06, 2011, 05:37:09 PM

Or maybe the ATM's hardware dies.

You go to another ATM. There are lots of them.

But it'll cost money to withdraw from an ATM that isn't my bank.  Anywhere between $1.50 - $3.00 depending on the location.

Quote from: Lorddave on November 06, 2011, 05:37:09 PM

Of course I know about backups, but a backup system doesn't help if your backup relies on what failed in the first place.

What?

Quote from: Lorddave on November 06, 2011, 05:37:09 PM

If your bank loses power no amount of electronic backups, regardless of where they are, is going to help you.

Again, we live in the 21st century. Most major banks are huge international corporations. If we lose power globally, shit is going to suck, but I doubt bank tellers will help prevent this.

Quote

Quote from: Lorddave on November 06, 2011, 05:37:09 PM

Should banks be required to keep a spare device for every bit of hardware they have?

No. Several georedundant backup databases are more than enough.

Quote from: Lorddave on November 06, 2011, 05:37:09 PM

And what about things that can't be replaced easily?

Such as?

Quote from: Lorddave on November 06, 2011, 05:37:09 PM

Should they really stay closed that long just because they didn't bother having a paper record?

No. Luckily, backups aren't an alien concept to humanity.

I seem to be explaining myself poorly as you don't seem to understand my point.
Ok, so we get rid of tellers and all we have are the basic loan officers and people to run the bank.
They all rely on a little computer screen to tell them the information about you.  Now what happens if that screen breaks?  Or the computer breaks?  Or their connection to the main servers get's severed?  Or the switch/router/data link device inside their building goes down and they need to call a repair crew to fix it?  How exactly are the data backups going to be helpful?

I seem to be explaining myself poorly as you don't seem to understand my point.
Ok, so we get rid of tellers and all we have are the basic loan officers and people to run the bank.
They all rely on a little computer screen to tell them the information about you.  Now what happens if that screen breaks?  Or the computer breaks?  Or their connection to the main servers get's severed?  Or the switch/router/data link device inside their building goes down and they need to call a repair crew to fix it?  How exactly are the data backups going to be helpful?

Uh, Dave... you get a loan lately?

In the unlikely event all this happens, your IRL loan officer isn't going to be able to give you a loan. Not only will they not be able to verify your credit score, they're going to be really pissed off and sad. Weak fleshy humans.

What if all the ink in the world dries up and you can't sign your name on the dotted line? You'll be really happy that electronic signatures are now legally binding in America.

What like Biometrics?  Yes I'm sure there are people lining up to give their finger prints and retinal scans to the bank.  Americans have enough of a problem being finger printed, what makes you think they'd be happy to submit to such things for the benefit of the bank?

There also are electronic signatures. If they don't like that either, they can use a password. Their safety, their choice. Hardly a concern for you and me.

I am unfamiliar with such countermeasures.  Please enlighten me.

So you don't ID people? I guess all those <21s must enjoy their booze straight out of supermarket.
That plus the aforementioned biometrics.

You're not saving money for the people you fire.  You are, in fact, making them poor AND removing a vital stepping stone in work experience.  One doesn't become a grocery store manager without first being a cashier.

Really? America sure is a weird place. In the civilised world, people with management degrees become managers. A clue in the name.

Which brings to another point: Self-Checkouts.  These should make cashiers redundant and worthless yet for some reason they're not as popular as actual cashiers.

They're more popular than actual cashiers here. Again, this is a problem of America being backwards, which is what I originally claimed.

But it'll cost money to withdraw from an ATM that isn't my bank.  Anywhere between $1.50 - $3.00 depending on the location.

Again, this is an issue of America. Doesn't work like that here. Fixing it is what I suggest.

Ok, so we get rid of tellers and all we have are the basic loan officers and people to run the bank.
They all rely on a little computer screen to tell them the information about you.  Now what happens if that screen breaks?  Or the computer breaks?

They use the secondary computer and the secondary screen that are waiting just for that occasion. They can afford multiple computers because they're no longer paying thousands of redundant employees.

Or their connection to the main servers get's severed?

They use their local backups of the most crucial data. Also, I see no reason why there would be a "main server". It could very well be a decentralised system of several thousand "main servers" spread globally and constantly checking their data with one another to prevent a hacking incident.

Or the switch/router/data link device inside their building goes down and they need to call a repair crew to fix it?

They use a secondary switch/router/data link device which they have lined up just for that occasion.

How exactly are the data backups going to be helpful?

If I specified that I mean data backups only - I apologise for misspeaking. I meant backups in general.

Wait, they limit your monthly download? That... still happens?

Yup.  I think average bandwidth cap is around 250Gb a month for Amurrca.

Mine is 60gb.

Yup.  I think average bandwidth cap is around 250Gb a month for Amurrca.

Mine is 60gb.

Baw. I mean, I usually don't exceed 100GiB monthly, so I probably wouldn't mind too much, but this is a fairly foreign concept to me.

For the most part the ISPs here didn't even tell anyone there was a bandwidth cap until fairly recently (read: a couple years ago).  It's pretty interesting (read: hilarious) how nobody really noticed or complained until after they started revealing these caps.