Skyrim

I have hopped on the bandwagon by buying Skyrim.  I've only been playing it for a few days so far, and there's not really much I can say about the game itself that hasn't already been said, but this super srs discussion is interesting.  The key question is, which group is it that's impeding the formation of a potential alliance to fight the Thalmor, the Empire or the Stormcloaks?  Or are both groups at fault?

Also, does anyone have any thoughts on the similarity between the words "Stormcloak" and "Stormfront"?

God damnit! I feel like I'm the only one left who hasn't played skyrim now.

I feel the peer pressure weighing me down.

Quote from: Oscar on January 13, 2012, 03:20:01 PM

 First of all, the Empire turned its back on its own citizens and betrayed them to the Thalmor. Let us not forget that.

I was under the impression that the peace treaty was necessary as the Empire was eventually going to lose the war. How is this peace treaty betrayal? Having to worship one god (in secret) is not that big of a loss in the big picture. The Nords are idiots.

>talos
>god

Pick one

Secondly, the length of time Skyrim has spent under a particular authority is completely irrelevant.

Incorrect. And if you're going to make an argument, at least be consistent with it.

Okay, we can get technical if that's what you want...

It is true that the Aldmer colonized Skyrim a very long time ago - to call them the "original residents", however, is a massive presumption. We have absolutely no way of knowing that. Also, it is disingenuous to imply that the specific "Aldmer" of that specific period in Skyrim are the same "Aldmer" that compose the Aldmeri Dominion today. In fact, it is safe to say that those "Aldmer" probably no longer exist in any pertinent sense. 

Either way, it is not relevant. Aldmer have not had any significant stake in Skyrim for time out of mind. Conversely, the Nord have occupied it for an equal stretch and remain. The rightful claim is therefore theirs.

By that logic, the most rightful claim to Skyrim is on the Empire, seeing as they have occupied Skyrim for an even longer stretch and remain, while also being the most recent claimant. Ergo, Stormcloaks are trying to take away from the Empire what is rightfully belonging to the Empire.

I'd say it's the Stormcloaks, because of their racism. If they'd let the Dunmer help, they'd decimate the Thalmor.

Also, if it was the Dragonborn against the Aldmeri Dominion, we all know who would be the last one standing.

The dumner don't do shit for shit.

If you've ever played Morrowind, you would know that the Dunmer are the most racist race in TES, so I seriously don't think their pride would allow them to help the Stormcloaks.

tl;dr

The dumner don't do shit for shit.

There are some friendly dragons in Skyrim that kill bears attacking you and shit. Why don't the stormcloaks just recruit them?

Pray tell, in what way am I incorrect and inconsistent?

You're incorrect in the way that what you said isn't true, and you're inconsistent in the way that what you said isn't consistent with your other points.

The Empire is a political entity, you bumpkin; it doesn't "occupy" a place in the same way that the actual population "occupies" it.

Indeed? Racial entities don't rule nations, political entities do. Therefore Skyrim is not the nords' land, it's the land of whatever authority that is controlling it. And that would be the Empire. So once again, the Empire would be the faction with the most rightful claim to Skyrim, and furthermore, a race claiming ownership to a land is far worse than anything the Thalmor do.

Glad to see you've apparently conceded all my other points though. That's progress of a sort.

I've addressed all your points. If I omitted something, it's because there was nothing to address.

Quote

The Empire is a political entity, you bumpkin; it doesn't "occupy" a place in the same way that the actual population "occupies" it.

Indeed? Racial entities don't rule nations, political entities do. Therefore Skyrim is not the nords' land, it's the land of whatever authority that is controlling it. And that would be the Empire. So once again, the Empire would be the faction with the most rightful claim to Skyrim, and furthermore, a race claiming ownership to a land is far worse than anything the Thalmor do.

This really is a moot point, though, seeing as the imperials very much are a race, just as much as the nords are. How else do they get congenital, innate magical powers? Is it just a coincidence that citizens of the Empire who have been such for a long enough time all share the same common traits?

I find it interesting that the Redguards aren't related to the other human races, but they're still considered humans.

Spoken like a true Nord. You racist bastard.

doohohohooo

Quote from: Blanko on January 15, 2012, 05:39:08 PM

Quote

The Empire is a political entity, you bumpkin; it doesn't "occupy" a place in the same way that the actual population "occupies" it.

Indeed? Racial entities don't rule nations, political entities do. Therefore Skyrim is not the nords' land, it's the land of whatever authority that is controlling it. And that would be the Empire. So once again, the Empire would be the faction with the most rightful claim to Skyrim, and furthermore, a race claiming ownership to a land is far worse than anything the Thalmor do.

This really is a moot point, though, seeing as the imperials very much are a race, just as much as the nords are. How else do they get congenital, innate magical powers? Is it just a coincidence that citizens of the Empire who have been such for a long enough time all share the same common traits?

Empire != the imperial race

Of course, but the empire was founded by the imperials.

Of course, but the empire was founded by the imperials.

Which is entirely irrelevant.

Just as it is irrelevant that Nords inhabit Skyrim.

Just as it is irrelevant that Nords inhabit Skyrim.

Uh, yes?

I'm glad we agree.

I'm not the one arguing that Skyrim belongs to the nords just because they happen to live there.

Of course, but the empire was founded by the imperials.

Incorrect.  Tiber Septim I was very Nord.  I don't think the Imperial race even existed yet.

Saint Alessia founded the first Empire after defeating the Ayleids long before Tiber Septim, and she was very much of the Imperial race.

Quote from: Nomad on January 13, 2012, 06:59:29 PM

Yeah, I wouldn't call the treaty a betrayal, considering that the options were to keep fighting a losing war and be slaughtered, or submit to some stupid bullshit for a bit while regrouping your troups.  Of course again, seems that'll be hard since nobody has the empire's back anymore.

Boo hoo. Poor old Empire. Maybe if it had the backs of its own citizens we would be more willing to reciprocate.

lololololololol
omg Oscar has lost it.

Of course, but the empire was founded by the imperials.

It was founded by a Nord, actually.

Well, mugsy is right; Alessia founded the Cyrodiilic empire.  But generally when we refer to "The Empire," we mean the actual unified Tamriellic empire brought together by Tiber Septim.

Alessia was a girl.

And?  Aside from them being terrible, I don't see how that's relevant.

Well, mugsy is right; Alessia founded the Cyrodiilic empire.  But generally when we refer to "The Empire," we mean the actual unified Tamriellic empire brought together by Tiber Septim.

Ah, yes.

I've seen less animated discussions concerning Palestine/Israel. Just from this thread I think I know more about Skyrim than a good number of actual, real countries.

I've seen less animated discussions concerning Palestine/Israel. Just from this thread I think I know more about Skyrim than a good number of actual, real countries.

It has a larger GDP than most of those countries, so fair enough.

Quote from: Chris Spaghetti on January 19, 2012, 01:18:49 PM

I've seen less animated discussions concerning Palestine/Israel. Just from this thread I think I know more about Skyrim than a good number of actual, real countries.

It has a larger GDP than most of those countries, so fair enough.

Adjusted for inflation?

I believe that the Stormcloaks are the justified faction simply because the vast majority of the locals are dissatisfied with the leadership from the Empire and no longer want to be a part of it.  Government is supposed to be for the benefit of the governed, not those who do the governing.

And I don't understand why the Empire sympathists here seem to be taking it for granted that the treaty with the Thalmor is only temporary while the Empire regroups.  Has anyone actually said that in the game, or are you just assuming that that's the plan?

For that matter, even if it is the plan, why should the Empire be trusted to be the ones who take the fight to the Thalmor?  They lost once.  Who's to say they won't lose again?